The (only!) official ES all things Kirk Cousins should we shouldn't we off-season thread.

[I Love The Skins]

9 minutes ago, SkinsPassion4Life said:

It's just amazing how much this is getting blown out of proportion.....SM has a problem...I think the Skins tried to cover for him while he got help...or maybe just needed time away.....

 

I don't see the dysfunction....the front office and coaching staff ranks the free agents...Eric Schaeffer and Bruce negotiate the contracts.....what's the problem?

ITA with this.

[SkinsPassion4Life]

I live in New York....the Jets have been way more dysfunctional over the years, but you would never think that.....the Browns, 49ers, etc....yet somehow we're considered the most dysfunctional....get the F outta here.....FAKE NEWS!

[SlkyCaramel]

13 minutes ago, SkinsPassion4Life said:

It's just amazing how much this is getting blown out of proportion.....SM has a problem...I think the Skins tried to cover for him while he got help...or maybe just needed time away.....

 

I don't see the dysfunction....the front office and coaching staff ranks the free agents...Eric Schaeffer and Bruce negotiate the contracts.....what's the problem?

 

Could not agree more. 

[Conn]

If we lose our GM because of a drinking problem, which is almost best case scenario at this point, we won't be hiring another one. So the sky is still basically falling. Scot did not have a traditional GM role here and no other respected personnel man in the NFL would take that limited role here. We'd be dealing with Allen/Williams/Gruden basically.

 

That's not a problem to you guys? A "real" GM evaluating the personnel was Scot's biggest selling point.

 

You're basically hoping that because the team might be covering for him and giving him a chance to get back on the wagon, everything will go back to normal. He has a problem and it was always a risk it would effect his job performance. Doesn't mean things will just bounce back. 

 

When even the best case scenario can turn out to be a total disaster, there's reason to be worried.

[SlkyCaramel]

1 minute ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

If we lose our GM because of a drinking problem, which is almost best case scenario at this point, we won't be hiring another one. So the sky is still basically falling. Scot did not have a traditional GM role here and no other respected personnel man in the NFL would take that limited role here. We'd be dealing with Allen/Williams/Gruden basically.

 

That's not a problem to you guys? A "real" GM evaluating the personnel was Scot's biggest selling point.

 

You're basically hoping that because the team might be covering for him and giving him a chance to get back on the wagon, everything will go back to normal. He has a problem and it was always a risk it would effect his job performance. Doesn't mean things will just bounce back. 

 

When even the best case scenario can turn out to be a total disaster, there's reason to be worried.

 

Just because people aren't taking the chicken little sky is falling approach that the rest of the board is doesn't mean that we don't see there are possible issues. And also, you have no idea whether or not we'd be getting another one GM if Scot left. I don't really get why people love speaking in absolutes here, it's silly. We really don't have any clue what is happening or what will happening and there are about a zillion different scenarios and yes we can discuss them ad nauseum but getting this worked up over non-info doesn't make much sense. 

 

I blame a lot of this on the Skins media, I've never seen reporting so overly dramatic in my life

[ILikeBilly]

2 hours ago, Tsailand said:

 

They don't switch teams because their teams lock them up before they hit free agency.  However, on the rare occasions when they do switch, they do just fine on the new team (barring injury or age). Examples: Manning on Broncos before the final year. Favre his first year with the Vikings (no championship but he had a great year).

 

You are absolutely delusional to think that if Kirk goes to the 49ers, and Kyle gets him some weapons and a half-decent O-line, he won't succeed.  There might be a down year or two during the rebuild, but once things are in shape he will move the ball just as well for Kyle as he did here.

Manning and Farve were already great before moving.  Kirk isn't.  He hasn't reached free agency.  He is on a team ready to contend if resourcesare spent on the D.  Literally, the Reskins can compete for the SB with Kirk, a good free agency and draft.  SF is 3 years away With some luck.  He may put up good numbers in SF, but I doubt he gets the wins that matter.

 

[onedrop]

31 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

If we lose our GM because of a drinking problem, which is almost best case scenario at this point

If that's best case what is the worst?

[PartyPosse]

9 minutes ago, onedrop said:

If that's best case what is the worst?

We lose our GM because he got Julie Cousins pregnant? 

[Conn]

1 minute ago, onedrop said:

If that's best case what is the worst?

 

Probably the stories about Bruce Allen's ego being the reason Scot is being "pushed out". How could that not be worst case scenario?

[onedrop]

6 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

 

Probably the stories about Bruce Allen's ego being the reason Scot is being "pushed out". How could that not be worst case scenario?

In a normal world.....

8 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

We lose our GM because he got Julie Cousins pregnant? 

Meanwhile in Redskins universe.....

[Tsailand]

3 hours ago, skinfan2k said:

alternative proposal, what if the 49ers gave up 3 1sts and a 2nd?  You do know that Kyle and his father were here and gave up the same for RG3.  Would you take it?

 

Kyle had nothing to do with that, and he wouldn't offer it today.

 

I would take it if it were on the table.  Tank 2017, let the WRs go, and stockpile picks and cap space.

 

 

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

HarryFoxSports LLC Retweeted 

 NFL_DRAFT_Bites‏ @NFLDraftBites13m13 minutes ago

Text from outspoken NFL Agent, "#Redskins park from ownership to player personnel looks like 1945 Berlin."

 

This is one of the two tweets I've seen today in the same vein.

 

Except that ownership won't take the same exit strategy.

[RemoveSnyder]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

 NFL_DRAFT_Bites‏ @NFLDraftBites13m13 minutes ago

 

Text from outspoken NFL Agent, "#Redskins park from ownership to player personnel looks like 1945 Berlin."

 

Haha. **** me. 

That's hilarious. 

[skins2victory]

Is there an actual legitimate source for these trade rumors???? I hope to god this garbage isnt true!

[Conn]

3 minutes ago, skins2victory said:

Is there an actual legitimate source for these trade rumors???? I hope to god this garbage isnt true!

 

Not yet. The actual beat reporters most recently said that it would take a massive offer to get us thinking about moving Kirk. That was a week ago. But to be fair, that usually the type of talk that precedes any trade the Patriots make, so who knows. (I use the Pats as an example because I live in Boston and get lots of Pats news here, so I'm familiar with how a normal organization runs)

[TSO]

2 hours ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

If we lose our GM because of a drinking problem, which is almost best case scenario at this point, we won't be hiring another one. So the sky is still basically falling. Scot did not have a traditional GM role here and no other respected personnel man in the NFL would take that limited role here. We'd be dealing with Allen/Williams/Gruden basically.

 

I'm with you about this being a problem, but let's see if it is first. 

 

I've maintained since the moment that Scot was hired that as long as the structure remains as is we'll be okay even if something happens with him (since that was always a legitimate concern). 

 

I'd like to see a real hiring process occur to where the best candidate gets chosen based on their expertise and the title actually gives final say on personnel. Anything less and it's absolutely a problem. Too much will be placed on Jay's shoulders again and, as much as I believe in him, I don't think anyone is set up to succeed in that situation. 

[SkinsFanRob]

This is all so upsetting. This team is so close to being relevant again. Just when it looks like the storm is ending and the sun is breaking through the clouds this organization always lets you down. Letting Kirk go would be a huge mistake. Has everyone forgotten how disgustingly bad our offense has been for the last 25 years? We are a middle of the pack defense away from competing on a regular basis and our joke of a front office wants to blow it up. Why would any free agents want to sign for this clown show? Our actual GM is more than likely on a bender while our president and owner are going to trade away the best qb we have had in 25 years. What a joke. 

[TSO]

1 hour ago, onedrop said:

In a normal world.....

 

Yes, on a personal level it's terrible to think that's "best case". I think it's something that should be avoided when discussing even. 

 

At the same time, organizationally speaking, it's worst case if what's happened here is due to titles becoming meaningless and those hired for certain roles being unable to fulfill them. That is the definition of dysfunction and will mean nothing will change so long as those overseeing said dysfunction remain in place. 

 

So @ConnSKINS26 isn't off base here at all. Maybe cold, emotionally-removed, and understating Scot's personal demons... but not necessarily wrong. 

[Conn]

1 minute ago, thesubmittedone said:

 

I'm with you about this being a problem, but let's see if it is first. 

 

I've maintained since the moment that Scot was hired that as long as the structure remains as is we'll be okay even if something happens with him (since that was always a legitimate concern). 

 

I'd like to see a real hiring process occur to where the best candidate gets chosen based on their expertise and the title actually gives final say on personnel. Anything less and it's absolutely a problem. Too much will be placed on Jay's shoulders again and, as much as I believe in him, I don't think anyone is set up to succeed in that situation. 

 

I don't see any reason why we'd get another personnel guy, is the problem. I don't think Scot leaves a Scot-shaped hole in the power structure and then gets replaced by a similar job title, as it's a pretty unique situation with him and normally someone with his resume wouldn't take the title and still work under Allen, technically or not. But he had his own issues so it was a good match in that regard. I'm guessing we'd be looking at a Doug Williams promotion at best, someone who is already here and working under Allen.

 

Allen isn't going anywhere. Allen isn't going to hire someone who is above him in the hierarchy. So we aren't really looking for a GM in this scenario, it was just a jazzed up title for Scot due to his resume, he was really more a Director of College Scouting for us, it seems. With final say on the roster but we don't know how often he was able to flex that authority, how much say Gruden and Allen had over the 53 (as opposed to the 90) etc. Before the current dysfunction, I'm talking.

 

Nobody worth the title of GM will leave a good organization (all the desirable personnel guys are from good organizations, that's why they're desirable) to work under Bruce freaking Allen, these guys are picky and bide their time for years before the right GM job opens up. Look at the stud personnel guys from the Packers, Ravens, and Patriots who keep taking interviews with **** organizations and then re-signing with their own teams more often than not. These guys don't stop being highly regarded, their teams are fine benefiting from their knowledge or grooming them to take over later, until the right spot opens up for them. 

 

So unless I'm totally wrong, I don't think getting Scot ever gave us the "normal" Owner>GM>HC power structure that we originally thought. We always knew Allen had a role but now it seems clear that, duh, he never hired his own boss. He was the boss and we had a nontraditional power structure, and gave Scot the title and pay to go along with his pedigree. 

 

I doubt we find someone else worth the title to take the job under these restrictions now, and I doubt Allen ever hires someone and gives them the power to fire him.

[Rattlesnake88]

3 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

 

I don't see any reason why we'd get another personnel guy, is the problem. I don't think Scot leaves a Scot-shaped hole in the power structure and then gets replaced by a similar job title.

Politics. I would guess their next guy would be a "yes man". As you theorized, Scot was working under a title that didn't truly fit the work he was doing with the Redskins. That wont change, neither will the title; Only the man taking the job.

[Est.1974]

About time of of the QBs moved teams. Need one to move then the rest of the cards will follow. 

[TSO]

10 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

 

So unless I'm totally wrong, I don't think getting Scot ever gave us the "normal" Owner>GM>HC power structure that we originally thought. We always knew Allen had a role but now it seems clear that, duh, he never hired his own boss. He was the boss and we had a nontraditional power structure, and gave Scot the title and pay to go along with his pedigree. 

 

Here's where I disagree. I think Allen can hire someone acting as Team President and still give them the role of GM with its primary function in tact: final say on personnel. 

 

That's what all indications were with Scot when he first got here and there weren't any reports refuting that until recently. The way the players spoke of him, the way the coaches spoke of him, the way Jay did... it all pointed to that. 

 

So, yeah, you're right, Allen is still the boss but that doesn't preclude a lack of roles being assigned or titles being undermined. Same way the owner isn't also GM or HC or whatever even if he's the overall boss (or so we hope). 

 

Anyway, I know where you're going with this and I actually agree that it's likely. I'm just willing to give it a chance I guess. I'm just hoping they understand this. If they don't, I'm going to expect failure. :/ 

[RemoveSnyder]

2 hours ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

If we lose our GM because of a drinking problem, which is almost best case scenario at this point, we won't be hiring another one.

 

It's almost too convenient for the sole impetus of terminating McC is because he's getting ****faced at his desk for no reason. 

[Conn]

Just now, thesubmittedone said:

 

Here's where I disagree. I think Allen can hire someone acting as Team President and still give them the role of GM with its primary function in tact: final say on personnel. 

 

That's what all indications were with Scot when he first got here and there weren't any reports refuting that until recently. The way the players spoke of him, the way the coaches spoke of him, the way Jay did... it all pointed to that. 

 

So, yeah, you're right, Allen is still the boss but that doesn't preclude a lack of roles being assigned or titles being undermined. Same way the owner isn't also GM even if he's the overall boss. 

 

You're right here. Maybe I wasn't clear, I agree that at least at first he definitely had "final say" on the roster. And maybe someone else could get that power, although I stand by my argument that anyone worth giving that power to would most likely not take a job where they aren't in the Bruce Allen position at the technical top of the hierarchy. 

 

But anyways, we also heard, right from his opening press conference, that it was going to be a team effort with him, Allen, Gruden, etc. Gruden has also always said this. We know that Scot put his foot down and made the Crowder pick. So we know the power existed. But every team does it differently. Some teams give the GM final say on the 90 man roster, and then give the HC more say in the 53 man roster that he'll actually have to coach during the season. So the GM buys the groceries, and the HC has a big role in selecting what's for dinner, basically. We just don't know what it was like here and I agree that's a problem, and could continue to be. 

[skins2victory]

With all due respect guys, this is the Kirk thread.

[CapsSkins]

3 hours ago, SkinsPassion4Life said:

It's just amazing how much this is getting blown out of proportion.....SM has a problem...I think the Skins tried to cover for him while he got help...or maybe just needed time away.....

 

I don't see the dysfunction....the front office and coaching staff ranks the free agents...Eric Schaeffer and Bruce negotiate the contracts.....what's the problem?

 

Great articulation!

 

"Agents" and "league sources" are piling on because it's fun gossip -- everybody likes to gossip at their jobs, just read Colin Powell's emails if you don't believe me.

 

This **** is not so complicated. We KNEW Scot and Jay reported to Bruce. We KNEW Bruce had "final say". We KNEW Scot was hired for his scouting ability. We KNEW Bruce / Eric did the contracts. We KNEW Scot had a checkered past / personal problems. We KNEW the org was not sold on Cousins. Hell it was Scot who reportedly called him an "empty stat collector". We KNEW Jay likes Colt a lot (had Colt not been injured, wonder how things would have played out).

 

So-- Scot is having problems, org trying to cover up for him, might be too much but who knows. Genuinely sad situation for reasons that have nothing to do with football and I'll leave that at that.

 

Bruce and Jay still marching on w/ strategy. Jay gets a guaranteed extension because org believes in him. They are trying to figure out Kirk situation but Kirk loved playing with Kyle and feels jilted by Skins. Fine. Slap the tag, keep working on a LTD and in the meantime explore contingencies. SF can't force Skins to trade Kirk. Worst case scenario, they draft a QB and let Kirk play on the tag and then slap the transition tag next year and then figure something out.

 

SO-- if reports are that Kirk to SF is "90% done" that must mean the return is compelling enough to pull the trigger. And that heavily suggests at the very least #2 overall. So now you think about the OVERALL team if you let Kirk go but draft either Jonathan Allen or Myles Garrett, and then spend on D in FA and draft a QB to compete with Colt (maybe Trubisky, maybe Watson, who knows). O side you already have Reed, Vernon Davis, Crowder, Doctson, Mo Harris, Ryan Grant + a mid-level FA. Maybe you draft a RB high. That's a pretty compelling strategy. Kirk is not the glue that holds the franchise together folks. Reed, Crowder, Trent, Vernon, Scherff, Moses, Norman, Cravens, Doctson, Fuller, Murphy, Smith, Kerrigan, Way, Long, etc. etc. etc. are all guys we have with or without Kirk!