WP - Redskins appear to be a franchise one can love. But when do you know it’s real?

[TSO]

6 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

What I'm absolutely terrified of, ironically, is becoming the post-McCloughan 49ers. They hired a great coach to utilize the roster he built the foundation of, faked the fanbase out for 3-4 years with a nice stream of NFC championship appearances coming after years of being awful...and then their terrible owner, Jed York, and his cronies ****ed it all up, ran Harbaugh out of the building just as McCloughan's roster from years earlier finally started to fall apart, and sunk right back to being a laughing stock, where I'm betting they'll stay for quite a while.

I mean, don't get me wrong--I'd love to have that stretch of competence, bordering on dominance on at least one side of the ball. I just don't want it to end ugly and in a huge, depressing backslide like it did for 9ers fans.

 

Only a traumatized Skins fan would manage to come up with some future epic meltdown scenario like this and have it be a legitimate thought instead of extreme paranoia.  

[Conn]

34 minutes ago, thesubmittedone said:

 

Only a traumatized Skins fan would manage to come up with some future epic meltdown scenario like this and have it be a legitimate thought instead of extreme paranoia.  

The 49ers are the only real example, in recent memory, of a perennially bad team reaching great heights only to fall back to being a perennially bad team, all within a 5 year period or so. People talk about the parity in the NFL, but what they really mean by that is that the upper 2/3 of the league sees a lot of shuffling and really compete with each other while the bottom 1/3 of the league pretty much stays really bad...because what makes them that bad is usually not something that can change on a dime--its usually bad ownership or a fundamental lack of understanding how to build a good roster or a good culture in the first place. Its rare that a bottom team really rises into that next tier and stays there--we might be witnessing us and the Raiders making that ascent, maybe the Jags too. But that remains to be seen and it could go south for anybody--and it took a ton of tries and a very long time for all three of those teams to possibly, maybe get it right if all goes well. There are a couple organizations riding completely on the backs of their QB's who are on the verge of collapsing into one of these teams--the post-Brees Saints come to mind. But in general teams pretty much stay in their respective buckets from year to year, with the changing of the guard being very slow when it comes to the perennial bottom-feeders. 

I think if we're all honest, what we're most afraid of is this scenario playing out--due to Scot spiraling, or Dan interfering, or Gruden crashing and burning, or bad luck, or any number of combinations of those things and other things we can't even imagine. 

I don't think this will happen. I do think its our worst nightmare and that the 49ers are a pretty good example of how it could all fall to pieces--although I think Snyder has learned not to be like York (and his old self) and I don't think our success is tied to a coach or decision maker like Harbaugh who will clash with ownership and/or the GM. But its the closest case I can think of to a fanbase being faked out for a few years and then thrown back into the pit of despair, and this article brought it to mind. 

[TSO]

No, I'm totally with you @ConnSKINS26, been thinking and writing about this all offseason myself. Hence, the "legitimate thought" part of my post, lol. It's sad that we have these thoughts and that they're based on something real versus delusional paranoia, you know? 

I'm just praying it really is different this time, that everything we're seeing (and there's no doubt we are seeing it for real) bears fruit, and that it's sustainable. 

[Conn]

7 minutes ago, thesubmittedone said:

No, I'm totally with you @ConnSKINS26, been thinking and writing about this all offseason my self. Hence, the "legitimate thought" part of my post, lol. It's sad that we have these thoughts and that they're based on something real versus delusional paranoia, you know? 

Extremely sad lol. But we've been conditioned to expect the worst. Sometimes, with people around here, I think they have even been conditioned to hope for the worst, somehow. Like its the only time a small segment of our  fanbase actually feels comfortable. There's a portion of society that is always self-destructive, I guess. 

[TSO]

Just now, ConnSKINS26 said:

Extremely sad lol. But we've been conditioned to expect the worst. Sometimes, with people around here, I think they have even been conditioned to hope for the worst, somehow. Like its the only time a small segment of our  fanbase actually feels comfortable. There's a portion of society that is always self-destructive, I guess. 

 

Yeah, totally. I actually am convinced of the bolded.  

Where's Jumbo to psycho-analyze this when you need him? 

[Conn]

2 minutes ago, thesubmittedone said:

 

Yeah, totally. I actually am convinced of the bolded.  

Where's Jumbo to psycho-analyze this when you need him? 

I would love to get my hands on the psychological studies I know he has used ES for in his "day job" lol

[Renegade7]

On 9/9/2016 at 3:17 AM, Darth Tater said:

I'll know its for real when I stop seeing articles like this.  We were still seeing similar articles as late as early fall 1983.  Well written piece.

 

Wasn't around for '83, but I have a good feeling what you're talking about.  We may get used to being a stable, quality, winning franchise, but I don't believe we'll ever get away from the occasional potshots due to the early part of Snyder's reign and the team name (even if one or both we're over).

 

For me, we need to win at least one playoff game this season and next season.  Wizards still haven't been three years in a row for forever, and the Capitals/Nats playoff futility is well documented.  Even if we go through a reign on top of the division, I can see it turning nasty again if we keep getting bounced out earlier then expectations (which at the rate we're going I don't see us becoming that team).

[TD_washingtonredskins]

34 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Wasn't around for '83, but I have a good feeling what you're talking about.  We may get used to being a stable, quality, winning franchise, but I don't believe we'll ever get away from the occasional potshots due to the early part of Snyder's reign and the team name (even if one or both we're over).

I was alive but too young to see the transformation. I was born in 77 and became aware of the Redskins in 82 when they took the town by storm. But, for the first couple years that I followed them it was literally a 2-3 hour thing each week. When my mom put the game on, I'd watch and cheer and expect them to win (because at that age I probably didn't even realize it was any different than a Scooby Doo episode or Star Wars movie where you knew the good guys would be OK). 

It's fascinating to me to think about when the collective fan base in DC just became comfortable and confident in the team to expect great things. I always did, but like I said, I had much less baggage. Did it take back-to-back Super Bowl appearances? Did it take winning the division for a third time in 84? Confidence is so fragile that I bet many people thought the early playoff exit in 84 and missing the playoffs in 85 was probably the end of our cute little Gibbs run. 

[Koolblue13]

I'd like to win more playoffs.

Be hands down favorites to win our division a few times in a row.

Be strong to dominate on at least 2/3 of team.

If there is any glaring holes, they can't be exploited.

@ConnSKINS26, damn man. Hadn't thought of that. Thanks. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

To add to Koolblue's - how about starting a season 10-2 or something? Clinching a division with 3 weeks to go. Can you imagine having 2-3 weeks to talk potential playoff matchups or home field/bye scenarios? 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

On 9/9/2016 at 6:42 AM, SkinsHokieFan said:

How to know on the right track?

 

1) Keep it drama free. So far so good...

 

[Koolblue13]

DAMN IT!?

To be fair, I wouldn't call this a surprise or a leak or drama. The RJF stuff is worse.

This is more of a "no ****" type thing.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

7 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

DAMN IT!?

[Koolblue13]

Just now, Califan007 said:

Double damn it

[dyst]

Maybe we know it's real when they do it for several years in a row

[TD_washingtonredskins]

That is funny that this is already shot to hell. 

New rule, the next time we sneak into the playoffs (probably sometime in the early- to mid-2020s), no one gets to talk about a carryover affect the following year unless we are over .500 at the midway point of the season. 

[Commander -JB-]

Redskins fans get suckered into believing , over & over again.  Dan Snyder continues to make hand over fist running a pathetic organization.  Speaking of a pathetic joke, how about the new stadium design & the idea of having a moat & guys surfing while people are rock climbing on the side of the stadium ??  My god.  What a joke.

[TSO]

@TD_washingtonredskins What's shot to hell? 

The premise of this thread and the article were actually pretty much spot on. 

There is still plenty to like about the direction of the team, but there were warning signs going into this season that we're a ways off, last season may have given way to too high of expectations, and that Scot's philosophy (which is the correct one for the long term) left us majorly weak in positions like the Dline.

Hence, the question of whether or not it's real and if we'll get to see it soon. 

Actually, if people were paying more attention to this and reading things like the article here, the blog entry I linked to, and some of the posts... none of this would've come as a huge shock. 

Even though it sucks. And definitely didn't like seeing the drama after the Cowboys game, but it wasn't nearly as bad as anything else we've seen here.  :/

 

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

51 minutes ago, thesubmittedone said:

@TD_washingtonredskins What's shot to hell? 

The premise of this thread and the article were actually pretty much spot on. 

There is still plenty to like about the direction of the team, but there were warning signs going into this season that we're a ways off, last season may have given way to too high of expectations, and that Scot's philosophy (which is the correct one for the long term) left us majorly weak in positions like the Dline.

Hence, the question of whether or not it's real and if we'll get to see it soon. 

Actually, if people were paying more attention to this and reading things like the article here, the blog entry I linked to, and some of the posts... none of this would've come as a huge shock. 

Even though it sucks. And definitely didn't like seeing the drama after the Cowboys game, but it wasn't nearly as bad as anything else we've seen here.  :/

 

Not saying you're wrong but you were saying the same thing in 2013. 

 

 I want to believe so badly

[TSO]

20 minutes ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

Not saying you're wrong but you were saying the same thing in 2013. 

 

 I want to believe so badly

 

But I think I've stated enough times the difference, brother.

 I don't know how many times I've stated that I had a faulty understanding back then. 

That I thought we were already there, that Robert was going to tear up the league, that the franchise was going to start right where they left off at the end of 2012. Pretty much ignored the warning signs, even though they bothered me. There was a lot of growth for myself as a fan that year. I was much more homerrific back then and too willing to delude myself, lol. 

I don't know how you're seeing it as similar? 

Most importantly, our FO wasn't properly structured back then. I've repeatedly stated this offseason that we've got some weak areas as a result of our BPA approach as well as our reluctance to go all out in FA and address every immediate need with sure things, and that it will likely lead to short term losses for (hopefully) long term gain. 

I mean, completely different. Did you read this? 

Keep in mind I wrote that before the season started. 

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe this current ineptitude is just the reality and that's what has been built. I can't tell you anything that will convince you right now, it's hard enough for me to believe, too. :/ 

But I think there's some rationale here that's legitimate, you know? 

[Stefanskins]

On 9/10/2016 at 8:37 AM, Renegade7 said:

 

Wasn't around for '83, but I have a good feeling what you're talking about.  We may get used to being a stable, quality, winning franchise, but I don't believe we'll ever get away from the occasional potshots due to the early part of Snyder's reign and the team name (even if one or both we're over).

 

For me, we need to win at least one playoff game this season and next season.  Wizards still haven't been three years in a row for forever, and the Capitals/Nats playoff futility is well documented.  Even if we go through a reign on top of the division, I can see it turning nasty again if we keep getting bounced out earlier then expectations (which at the rate we're going I don't see us becoming that team).

shoot, I'd be thrilled with a franchise like our 70's teams...the 80's would be hard to replicate...

On 9/10/2016 at 9:15 AM, TD_washingtonredskins said:

I bet many people thought the early playoff exit in 84 and missing the playoffs in 85 was probably the end of our cute little Gibbs run. 

I don't recall feeling that way. I just had so much faith in Joe...even the second time around..

 

/I was actually shocked when he retired the first time..

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

Did something happen yesterday that I missed? Grant and Danny were just talking about somebody throwing somebody else under the bus and how bad it was.

[pjfootballer]

On ‎09‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 9:15 AM, TD_washingtonredskins said:

It's fascinating to me to think about when the collective fan base in DC just became comfortable and confident in the team to expect great things. I always did, but like I said, I had much less baggage. Did it take back-to-back Super Bowl appearances? Did it take winning the division for a third time in 84? Confidence is so fragile that I bet many people thought the early playoff exit in 84 and missing the playoffs in 85 was probably the end of our cute little Gibbs run. 

Nope. It was a different vibe back then.  We knew we couldn't win a SB every year.  What we did know is, we would either make the playoffs or if we didn't, we would give you a hard fought game and come back the next year.  I don't remember anyone getting down on losing a playoff game. I think the closest would be the 86 NFCCG against the Giants, only because they beat us 3 times. We always had faith in "next year."  We knew we'd be competitive year after year.

Even Gibbs 8-8 and 7-9 teams weren't inept.  We never looked like a "clown show."  We never beat ourselves.  We weren't an embarrassment. You knew the team would adjust the next time around.  You knew the team would brush off a loss and get ready for next week. If you beat us, it was because you were the better team that day. I don't really remember any fans getting down over a loss. I know SB 18 still haunts me, but other then that, I'd take the 80s run in a heartbeat.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

2 hours ago, pjfootballer said:

Nope. It was a different vibe back then.  We knew we couldn't win a SB every year.  What we did know is, we would either make the playoffs or if we didn't, we would give you a hard fought game and come back the next year.  I don't remember anyone getting down on losing a playoff game. I think the closest would be the 86 NFCCG against the Giants, only because they beat us 3 times. We always had faith in "next year."  We knew we'd be competitive year after year.

Even Gibbs 8-8 and 7-9 teams weren't inept.  We never looked like a "clown show."  We never beat ourselves.  We weren't an embarrassment. You knew the team would adjust the next time around.  You knew the team would brush off a loss and get ready for next week. If you beat us, it was because you were the better team that day. I don't really remember any fans getting down over a loss. I know SB 18 still haunts me, but other then that, I'd take the 80s run in a heartbeat.

I understand that, but I think some of our confidence is amplified with hindsight...now that we know we essentially created 3 mini-runs under Gibbs (1982-1984, 1986-1987, and 1990-1992) with short transition periods between each one (1985, 1988-1989). Let me put you at a specific point in time and see if you don't think SOME fans were getting very nervous: 

It's late-September of 1985. Following a relatively shocking and very disappointing home playoff loss to abruptly end our 1984 season, we get off to a 1-3 start in 1985. Two of the losses were by 30+ points, two were in the division, and our only win was a three-point victory of a bad Houston team. I think that, in that moment, it was probably pretty easy to feel that our team's arc was on its way down. Back then, we didn't know how Gibbs would do without Theismann (who looked bad before getting hurt) or Riggins (who was slowing down). We know NOW that he could win with any QB/RB combo...but certainly we didn't know back then. 

It's not like we had a long track record of success. Back in a much different NFL, we had only really proven ourselves over 3 years. 

As for your "clown show" I would imagine our QB drilling a one-yard punt during a 45-10 loss would qualify

[pjfootballer]

54 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

I understand that, but I think some of our confidence is amplified with hindsight...now that we know we essentially created 3 mini-runs under Gibbs (1982-1984, 1986-1987, and 1990-1992) with short transition periods between each one (1985, 1988-1989). Let me put you at a specific point in time and see if you don't think SOME fans were getting very nervous: 

It's late-September of 1985. Following a relatively shocking and very disappointing home playoff loss to abruptly end our 1984 season, we get off to a 1-3 start in 1985. Two of the losses were by 30+ points, two were in the division, and our only win was a three-point victory of a bad Houston team. I think that, in that moment, it was probably pretty easy to feel that our team's arc was on its way down. Back then, we didn't know how Gibbs would do without Theismann (who looked bad before getting hurt) or Riggins (who was slowing down). We know NOW that he could win with any QB/RB combo...but certainly we didn't know back then. 

It's not like we had a long track record of success. Back in a much different NFL, we had only really proven ourselves over 3 years. 

As for your "clown show" I would imagine our QB drilling a one-yard punt during a 45-10 loss would qualify

Still no.  At least not for me.

You have to remember, we had just come off of back to back SBs and another playoff appearance along with 3 straight division titles.  There was no social media back then to complain to anyone about except close friends and family.  You got all of your news on the team from newspapers and 2 minutes of local sports reporting.

I do think that a lot of fans knew by then that Theismann and Riggins were pretty much done at that point.  Theismann took a lot more of heat during the 1985 season, then Gibbs or the rest of the team.  We had just traded for George Rogers that spring to take over for Riggins and we drafted Schroeder to take over for Theismann.  Of course none of us knew he'd end his career on a broken leg that year.

I really don't think a lot of people back then were panicking as we kind of knew going into the season that it was a transition year. We still had hopes to get in the playoffs and for most of us, we knew it wasn't the team sucking as much as it was Theismann.

Windy, cold day in Chicago will do that to you if you aren't familiar with how to kick in a certain stadium, when it's your QB.  And the 85 Bears where annihilating everyone that year. We got our revenge the next 2 years on them.  Those instance were few and far between.