Larry Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 My gripes were actually very specific. Yes. They were. It's your CONCLUSIONS that are fantastically broad. "I found a couple of things I don't like about BLM, therefore the entire organization is responsible for murdering cops" may contain some very specific complaints. Which does not mean that the conclusion isn't far too broad. BLM has specific complaints, too. (SOME of them have merit.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grego Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Yes. They were. It's your CONCLUSIONS that are fantastically broad. "I found a couple of things I don't like about BLM, like, the founder citing a person who is a convicted cop killer as inspiration directly on their own website, chapter founders having to pray for strength to not kill a specific race of people, and ( since nobody has proved otherwise- I'll wait ) not disavowing chants about dead cops or false claims about police shootings therefore the entire organization should reexamine both its decisions about who to follow and it's decisions about what police shootings are, in fact, unjustifiable, such as Walter Scott, and completely disavow violent, or baseless chants" may contain some very specific complaints. Which does not mean that the conclusion isn't far too broad. Again. Very specific. And, factually correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 When faced an issue as complex and important as this it's important to paint with as broad a brush as possible. All BLM members support cop killing. All cops are murderous racists. So now that that's settled. How do we fix it? You're right. The anger on both sides of the issue is going to end any chance of timely reform. As few as two or three months ago, I listened to an NPR interview with a Republican congressman who said their was genuine bipartisan interest in criminal justice reform. But if cops keep dying and the GoP's based gets pissed off and closed off to the message of groups like BLM, then the GoP will absolutely occupy opposing political territory and shut down any chance of reform. BLM has to lead a repudiation of anti-police extremism and rhetoric of black separatism/supremacy. It's up to them because they are the most well known and visible branded movement on the issue. But they haven't been doing this. The angry and racist voices in the movement are too loud and it's distracting the public discourse from their positions. They don't possess the centralization and worthy leadership necessary to control their messaging and put the political capital they've gained to work. The movement needs true organization. MLK wrote the playbook for the way to achieve lasting civil rights reform. A minority group seeking to change a status quo must mobilize a majority of public support for their positions. If the popular opinion is that your cause is righteous, then you will have the political capital to make your reforms. We need an organized and disciplined movement that won't get knocked off the high ground by their angry constituents. We need leaders that can define the movement with their nobility. And we need to turn the cause of fixing an institutional injustice into the electoral momentum to get the legislators to pass legal reforms into Congress and State legislatures. Make it so Republicans won't want to die on that hill fighting your position (like happened with Gay Marriage) and you will get real reform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Im going to guess it won't work, and will lead to more diversion and manipulation, and we will be back to square one. Fear, paranoia, anger. Step right up and get your hot fear, paranoia and anger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Wisconsin Sheriff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Seriously, has the divide grown this wide? Yes. I mean, I hated it when places were being burned, looted and destroyed. I found it disgusting they were chanting for the death of cops. Now cops are being ambushed and targeted. Screw those people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 there seems a consensus the country is going in the wrong direction at least....til ya try to determine the right direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Im going to guess it won't work, and will lead to more diversion and manipulation, and we will be back to square one. Fear, paranoia, anger. Step right up and get your hot fear, paranoia and anger. I have no idea how you achieve this, but we have to stay focused on the real issues. What can we do to improve the policing in black communities? What can we do to make the criminal justice system fair for minorities? What can we do to uplift black communities that are plagued by poverty, crime, and broken homes? How can we give them economic opportunities? How can we make our civil society work for them? These are the questions we need to be focused on. The problems are so difficult and large that we may not even have any hope of fixing them in our lifetimes. But I do know we will make no progress if we waste our time succumbing to anger and engaging in distracting racial bickering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 I thi k the answer is we probably can't (under the current format), which is unfortunate to hear. That all requires a lot of money. Money no one will want to allocate to inner city black communities, or any other communities where crime and drug use is rampant. Much better to stick to the current playbook. Widespread Truth is good, but thats the most laughable of potential possibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Trump is a shameless opportunist. Pivot to trying to brand himself as the Law & Order candidate is so transparent. A Trump presidency would be an absolute disaster for the movement for quality in the criminal justice system for minorities. He has zero interest in working toward positive reform and he would completely divide the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Trump is a shameless opportunist. Pivot to trying to brand himself as the Law & Order candidate is so transparent. A Trump presidency would be an absolute disaster for the movement for quality in the criminal justice system for minorities. He has zero interest in working toward positive reform and he would completely divide the country. I fear way worse than that. He has serious despotic dictator written all over him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sisko Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 You're right. The anger on both sides of the issue is going to end any chance of timely reform. As few as two or three months ago, I listened to an NPR interview with a Republican congressman who said their was genuine bipartisan interest in criminal justice reform. But if cops keep dying and the GoP's based gets pissed off and closed off to the message of groups like BLM, then the GoP will absolutely occupy opposing political territory and shut down any chance of reform. BLM has to lead a repudiation of anti-police extremism and rhetoric of black separatism/supremacy. It's up to them because they are the most well known and visible branded movement on the issue. But they haven't been doing this. The angry and racist voices in the movement are too loud and it's distracting the public discourse from their positions. They don't possess the centralization and worthy leadership necessary to control their messaging and put the political capital they've gained to work. The movement needs true organization. MLK wrote the playbook for the way to achieve lasting civil rights reform. A minority group seeking to change a status quo must mobilize a majority of public support for their positions. If the popular opinion is that your cause is righteous, then you will have the political capital to make your reforms. We need an organized and disciplined movement that won't get knocked off the high ground by their angry constituents. We need leaders that can define the movement with their nobility. And we need to turn the cause of fixing an institutional injustice into the electoral momentum to get the legislators to pass legal reforms into Congress and State legislatures. Make it so Republicans won't want to die on that hill fighting your position (like happened with Gay Marriage) and you will get real reform. Really? It sure didn't seem that way when it was Cliven Bundy and his crew. As I recall, they were treated with kid gloves for quite some time which eventually resulted in the big standoff that ultimately did them in. I'm sure Philando Castile and any of a number of others killed by the police would have appreciated that kind of restraint. And where were all the calls for eschewing violence as a means of change when it was these folks? Simply put, black people in this country are sick and tired of the double standard on this. If stomping your feet and calling for "second amendment solutions" works for us like it has for the Teanderthals then so be it because clearly 60's style protests have gained us nothing. Zero. Zip. Nada. If you doubt it, just ask any one of the folks that have been murdered by the police going back to Amadou Diallo and even before that. Again, I'm not calling for violence against anyone. I'm just saying that threats of violence seem to have worked quite well for some folks and been very much tolerated without all the pearl clutching. More importantly though, is a question that gets asked a lot of Muslims, i.e. if all of these "good" cops oppose police brutality, why aren't they speaking out against it? Why aren't they leading the calls to their brethren for a no tolerance policy on excessive force? Because all I ever hear them say is "Do what we say while we're beating your ass, don't cover up, just lay there perfectly still and take it so that we don't have to feel threatened and kill you." Forgive me if I find that message not exactly indicative of people interested in solving the problem. All that attitude does is tamp down the powder keg a little harder. Your comments about MLK and the GOP's buy-in to reform are simplistic and lack perspective. First, you and many have bought into the image of MLK as sainted warrior of begging others for freedom. That sanitized GOP-approved version doesn't take the counterweight of Malcolm X and others that didn't buy into King's methods into account and it isn't entirely accurate... "...And I contend that the cry of ‘black power’ is, at bottom, a reaction to the reluctance of white power to make the kind of changes necessary to make justice a reality for the Negro,” King said. “I think that we’ve got to see that a riot is the language of the unheard. And, what is it that America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the economic plight of the Negro poor has worsened over the last few years.” --MLK So yeah, King clearly understood what you and many others didn't then and don't now. Regarding Trump as Nixon 2.0, if he somehow manages to get elected based on the old Nixon law and order nonsense, then the country will deserve what it gets. After watching their "bipartisanship" for the last 20 years anyone that thinks the GOP would do anything based on social justice and the moral high ground is either stupid or delusional, maybe both. The only reason so many red states are trying to reform the system is that they simply can't afford it any longer. Were it not for that, they'd be happy to continue warehousing as many people, mostly of color, as they could. It's both a jobs program for their rural Teanderthal supporters AND a political tool to maintain power. So you really believe the party that implemented tough on crime policies simply to control/defuse the civil rights movement, that continues to use that tool to this day in a cynical ploy to maintain power and that has rolled back a bunch of civil rights gains to hike up the hill to the moral high ground? **** them and **** anyone dumb enough to believe their disingenuous claims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 If ya'll want to be as highly regarded as the Bundy's and militias feel free seems to be working Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 And a swing and a miss at your assumption about my political affiliation. I wasn't assuming anything about your personal political affiliation. I was just pointing out who's actually been doing the dogwhistling around here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grego Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 I wasn't assuming anything about your personal political affiliation. I was just pointing out who's actually been doing the dogwhistling around here. Sure. But you claimed these incidents I specifically took issue with are a very small percentage of BLM protesters, which isn't true particularly the first two. One is the co-founder of the entire BLM movement and one is the founder of a large BLM chapter - those aren't fringe lunatics, they are the leadership. And, regarding the violent and disingenuous chants, BLM should disavow them if they don't condone such things, but I haven't seen or heard them do so. Now, had BLM not affiliated themselves with Shakur, and had it not been the co-founder of a major chapter, but rather some random protestor, and had they disavowed these chants (khogali was given a chance to apologize for her comments on camera but didn't) you would be correct that it would be unfair to link BLM to these things. But, that's not the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Grego is on a DiMaggio like streak in here. 45 posts in row concerning a person that hasn't stepped foot in the USA for 40 years....and nothing else. It's impressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 If ya'll want to be as highly regarded as the Bundy's and militias feel free seems to be working Right now, I think being as highly regarded as Bundy's militia would be a step UP. At the very least, they sure do seem to be treated a lot more politely and with less violence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grego Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Grego is on a DiMaggio like streak in here. 45 posts in row concerning a person that hasn't stepped foot in the USA for 40 years....and nothing else. It's impressive. The affiliation is important, I think. Alicia Garza thinks she's very important. BTW, I don't know if not having stepped foot in the US should be some sort of standard for not being important. Lots of people haven't stepped foot in the US for longer than that who one shouldnt pattern themselves after. Besides, the very reason she hasn't stepped foot on US soil is because she escaped from prison and fled to Cuba. So there's that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grego Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 BTW, it's a good thing I am talking about these things. One poster last week who's been defending BLM to death admitted (to my surprise) that he didn't know who Shakur was. I made the assumption (incorrectly) that people with Internet access and Google would know, or at least look into something before diving in head first. Different styles, I guess. So, some are being educated. That's never a bad thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Right now, I think being as highly regarded as Bundy's militia would be a step UP. At the very least, they sure do seem to be treated a lot more politely and with less violence. How many of them are arrested,dead,charges filed and sued? politely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 The streak continues! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sisko Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 BTW, it's a good thing I am talking about these things. One poster last week who's been defending BLM to death admitted (to my surprise) that he didn't know who Shakur was. I made the assumption (incorrectly) that people with Internet access and Google would know, or at least look into something before diving in head first. Different styles, I guess. So, some are being educated. That's never a bad thing. Most people in this country don't know what happened 5 years ago, let alone during the time when Assata was railroaded so I don't find that surprising at all. My niece was all wanting to go to University of AL and I'd been teasing her about that and the "Confederate Conference" (SEC) and I texted her a picture of George Wallace with some snide comment about it. Her response - "Who's that?". *SIGH* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Without speaking to the validity of the arguments being made, BLM is no longer an obscure group and that elevation of status comes with increased scrutiny. Quoting a controversial person or exploring emotions on Twitter is fine for small time organizations appealing to young sympathetic audiences. They're on the national stage now and they've got the attention of political rivals and skeptical audiences. Saying "not everyone agrees" in response to criticism of this type is always unconvincing. The words and actions of those with leadership titles reflect upon their organizations. All that said, BLM is winning. They haven't done anything that is threatening to send them tumbling back down into obscurity. Crowds are still turning up for their events all over the country. The GOP spent most of the first day of their convention complaining about BLM. We can talk about missteps and mistakes, but they're clearly on the rise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 If ya'll want to be as highly regarded as the Bundy's and militias feel free seems to be working Yeah I mean it's not like anyone has criticized those groups. They get a pass because they're white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forehead Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Is this about BLM as a whole, or just the Dallas shootings? I have to say I'm generally supportive of their message, but I am not down with the whole blocking the highway thing that is starting to occur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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