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The Brexit Thread


No Excuses
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I came across a pretty rational case for Brexit here

 

There is also 'Brexit - the movie' although that is a bit more sensationalistic.

 

Haven't found anything comparable for the 'Remain' side.

That was an excellent bit of information. I challenge anyone in this thread criticizing the Brexit move to watch it and comment.

Edited by nonniey
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http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-corbyn-idUSKCN0ZB0IR?utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_content=576eeaf504d301521b755a8f&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter

I'm going nowhere, says UK opposition leader Corbyn

 

The leader of Britain's main opposition Labour Party, Jeremy Corbyn, said on Saturday he would resist any attempt to oust him after the country voted to leave the European Union, citing his strong support among the party's members.

 

Corbyn has been criticized by some of Labour's elected lawmakers who say he did not campaign hard enough in support of EU membership, and had failed to convince millions of voters in the party's heartlands to back "Remain".

 

Hours after the 52 to 48 percent vote in favor of Brexit, or a British exit, which triggered financial and political turmoil across the globe, two lawmakers submitted a motion of no confidence in him. Others have also called for his resignation.

 

In his first speech since the vote, Corbyn said he would resist the calls, emphasizing the large mandate given to him by party activists at a leadership contest last year, in which he was swept to victory on a wave of support for his left-wing political agenda.

 

Asked whether he would stand for re-election in any leadership contest, he said: "Yes, I'm here."

 

"There are some people in the Labour Party ... who would want probably somebody else to be the leader of the Labour Party, they've made that abundantly clear."

 

"What I'm totally amazed by is that in the past 24 hours 140,000 people have said they do not want the Labour Party to spend the next two months debating the leadership," he said, citing an online petition calling for him to remain leader.

 

Around one third of Labour voters are estimated to have backed a British exit from the EU on Thursday, with many of those coming from traditional working class areas where high immigration tops the list of public concerns.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jeremy-corbyn-allies-sabotaged-labour-in-campaign-and-fuelled-brexit_uk_576eb1b5e4b0d2571149bb1f?f0kkhs8f68cucjtt9

Jeremy Corbyn Allies ‘Sabotaged’ Labour’s In Campaign On The EU Referendum, Critics Claim

 

Pro-EU messages deleted from speeches, events avoided

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/far-right-demonstrators-take-streets-8281867#ICID=sharebar_twitter

Far-right demonstrators take to streets demanding repatriation of immigrants in wake of Brexit
Edited by visionary
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That was an excellent bit of information. I challenge anyone in this thread criticizing the Brexit move to watch it and comment.

It's only excellent if you know absolutely nothing about how the EU functions. It's basically the tactic the Leave campaign used as they preyed on people's ignorance of how the EU functions. A quick search and read up will show you that it's almost all half truths or outright lies.

I will be happy to go over it later when I'm back in town tomorrow.

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Something as basic as not having a voice in the EU legislation is totally wrong. Britain had a great deal of sway in EU regulations and legislation. I believe the UK voted on the winning side of something like 87% of the winning legislation and was able to block or amend pretty much anything it didn't like.

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It's only excellent if you know absolutely nothing about how the EU functions. It's basically the tactic the Leave campaign used as they preyed on people's ignorance of how the EU functions. A quick search and read up will show you that it's almost all half truths or outright lies.

I will be happy to go over it later when I'm back in town tomorrow.

 

 

I stopped watching as soon as I heard 'The Spectator.' 

 

The Conservative weekly who Boris Johnson was a long time editor of. 

 

Not that it has an agenda or anything mind .....

 

Hail. 

Edited by Gibbs Hog Heaven
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I knew I couldn't be the only left leaning person who felt this way:

I know my history, so I'm deeply uncomfortable finding myself on the side of right wing European nationalists. Nonetheless I cannot help but think the lady has a point. Democracy matters.

Edited by s0crates
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Socrates, you are susceptible to populist arguments. The EU laws are passed by representatives from the democratically elected governments of their respective nations. How is that undemocratic?

The EU commission is the 'unelected' part and their job is to oversee passed legislation and enforce it. It's like arguing that we aren't a democracy because we don't elect people who run the FTC and the SEC.

Edited by No Excuses
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The EU commission is the 'unelected' part and their job is to oversee passed legislation and enforce it. It's like arguing that we aren't a democracy because we don't elect people who run the FTC and the SEC.

Can they be fired by someone who's elected?  Serious question.

Edited by KAOSkins
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Can they be fired by someone who's elected?  Serious question.

No they can't. And if they disagree with what is passed by the Parliament they won't execute it and in fact have the regulatory powers to implement policy that the Parliament may not like (and have done so). Heck guys this has been known for years. The EU bureaucrats have been called mandarins and that isn't a recent development (ie the term was used long before this election). Edited by nonniey
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No they can't. And if they disagree with what is passed by the Parliament they won't execute it and in fact have the regulatory powers to implement policy that the Parliament may not like (and have done so). Heck guys this has been known for years. The EU bureaucrats have been called mandarins and that isn't a recent development (ie the term was used long before this election).

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission#Appointment

 

President of the European Commission is nominated by the European Council (made of up of heads of the states of the member states), then confirmed by the European Parliament (elected by direct vote of the citizens).

 

28 European Commissioners are nominated by the individual member states, assigned roles by the EC President, and then confirmed in its entirety by the EU Parliament.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission#Dismissal

 

And yes, elected officials can remove them.  EC President can request resignation of individual members. EU council or commission can refer individual commissioners to removal for cause by ECJ.  EU Parliament can also dissolve the commission in its entirety by a vote of no confidence (2/3rd of vote).

 

Here is a link discussing the so called democratic deficit in EU. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_deficit_in_the_European_Union

 

Any representative democracy will be less democratic than a direct democracy.  EU is also a work in progress which has marvelously achieved its most important goal: peace in the European Continent.  Considering the horror show that was World War I and World War II, any economic benefit derived from a Union of European countries are secondary.  UK leave faction wants their cake and eat it too.  They want to leave but still enjoy the economic benefit equivalent of an EU member (anyone moderately familiar with most favored nation status in treaties will know why EU can't treat Britain like an EU member when it is not an EU member).  Mandarins?  Good grief.

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Applies to all racist biggot's like the 'proud' t-shirt slogan wearer in the pic. 

 

Hail.

At what point will the Advertising Standards Authority demand that the names Great Britain and United Kingdom be changed as they are no longer accurate?

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Socrates, you are susceptible to populist arguments.

If the charge is that I believe democracy is our best hope, then I admit I am guilty. I know the danger of democracy of course, the stupidity of the mob, but I also know of no better way to check the power of the few than with the voice of the many.

I'm reminded of a passage from a favorite English author:

'If there is hope,’ wrote Winston, ‘it lies in the proles.’ If there was hope, it MUST lie in the proles, because only there in those swarming disregarded masses, 85 per cent of the population of Oceania, could the force to destroy the Party ever be generated. The Party could not be overthrown from within. Its enemies, if it had any enemies, had no way of coming together or even of identifying one another. . . But the proles, if only they could somehow become conscious of their own strength, would have no need to conspire. They needed only to rise up and shake themselves like a horse shaking off flies. If they chose they could blow the Party to pieces tomorrow morning. Surely sooner or later it must occur to them to do it? And yet ——!

Edited by s0crates
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If the charge is that I believe democracy is our best hope, then I admit I am guilty. I know the danger of democracy of course, the stupidity of the mob, but I also know of no better way to check the power of the few than with the voice of the many.

I believe the charge is that the populist claim that EU is undemocratic is false.

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I believe the charge is that the populist claim that EU is undemocratic is false.

Well I was responding to the charge that I'm a "populist." I freely admit I am so inclined.

I saw an article yesterday where a Brexiter was interviewed. "If you're rich you vote stay, if you're poor you vote leave," she said. That sort of stuck with me. It's emblematic of something stirring in the masses of people. People are starting to get the sense that they are being screwed, and they're right. They're not always right about who they think is screwing them, and they don't always pick the best representatives of their interests, but maybe they're doing the best they can with the power they don't have.

As far how democratic or undemocratic the EU is, I'll be the first to admit my understanding of how the Kafkaesque EU government works is very limited, so I'm open to the possibility that I'm wrong on that point. Though I would like to hear an explanation as to where I've gone wrong.

My understanding is that the EU consists of 7 decision making bodies:

1. The Council of the EU (legislature).

2. The European Parliament (legislature).

3. The European Council (executive).

4. The European Commission (executive).

5. The Court of Justice of the European Union (judiciary).

6. The European Central Bank (central bank).

7. European Court of Auditors

Of these governing bodies, only the European Parliament is directly elected by European citizens. So it doesn't sound to me like the people have much power in the equation, and if the people lack power, then that's undemocratic by definition.

Edited by s0crates
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I believe the charge is that the populist claim that EU is undemocratic is false.

If 'inferior' countries have any say in the UK's affairs then that makes it undemocratic,

What percentage of the 'Leave' voters do you think would believe that a Greek or Irish vote should be worth the same as the vote of an Englishman?

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I just did a quick search for a family of 3 from LAX from 11/22-11/29, and I found a few hotels rated 4.2+ on Orbitz (including airfare) from as low as $835 per person.

Be careful if you book.

The lowest fares on Orbitz,(and many travel sites),show the least desirable flight options,(long layovers, multiple airlines and overnight flights)and don't include baggage fees, and charges for seat assignments.

Customizing the flight options, and those other charges, significantly increase the cost of those trips.

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