The "bathroom law" thread

[Major Harris]

it also doesn't matter that gender is apparently now something you get to decide, and the people who have made it so didn't bother consulting with anyone else on the matter, they just decided one day and then hurled accusations of bigotry at anyone who questioned their decision.

Yes.

[tshile]

Obviously, I don't know. But I would assume that what they were doing was "sneak in, and hope nobody catches them, in the knowledge that if anybody catches them, they will likely be assaulted, before being arrested."

If only we could go back to those days, before those uppity trans people and their allies took something that wasn't a problem, and made it into one.

Those days you don't know, but assume, existed

[Springfield]

Is this a trans man or which?

If you can't tell the difference then what's the problem?

[Bliz]

I also got told by a late teen/early twenties biological female that she was transgender because she wears masculine clothes and style and behavior. But then she said "I'm not a boy, and don't want to be a boy." WTH?

That gets to what I think is one of the core issues for people here. A lot of people don't appreciate that there is a difference between a transvestite and transgender. Not appreciating that difference makes it tougher, I think, to empathize with the difficultie trans people have fitting in.

[twa]

If you can't tell the difference then what's the problem?

 

and if I can it is?

[Springfield]

and if I can it is?

Maybe you're mistaken.

[twa]

Maybe you're mistaken.

 

That matters in a world where I define what I am?....bigot

 

How can you say my opinion as a man doesn't matter

 in this if being a man is fluid?

 

if we can change biology by self determination why not race?

[Major Harris]

if we can change biology by self determination why not race?

Hmm, now we're getting somewhere with my basketball problem.

[Larry]

Those days you don't know, but assume, existed

Well, I guess I just don't have the knowledge that you do.

So, how about you tell us what those better days were like?

[tshile]

Well, I guess I just don't have the knowledge that you do.

So, how about you tell us what those better days were like?

Oh you missed the part where I asked the question?

[Larry]

Oh you missed the part where I asked the question?

I read the post where you asserted a position. ("I didn't know it was a problem before.") And then used a "question", to try to prop up the position which you followed with. (That this wasn't a problem until The left "decided to wave their hands and change everything, and call anybody who disagrees with them bigots")

So you tell me. Create a hypothetical.

You're a 30 year old trans person. You were born male. But you came to the conclusion that the "you" that's inside your head is female. You've spent a decade in therapy wrestling with this problem, and came to the conclusion that your only path to happiness is to change sex. You've found doctors. Got prescriptions. You've been taking hormones for years. You've got boobs, now. You wear women's clothing. Had your name legally changed. You've had to change jobs, and towns, multiple times, to keep people from noticing the changes. (What's your alternative? Show up at the job you've been working, for five years, as a male, wearing a dress?).

You're saving up money for a trip to Switzerland, to get your dick cut off.

And you're in a restaurant, and you need to pee.

What do YOU do, in that situation? Back in this ten years ago world, where you assert the problem didn't exist?

Still think the problem didn't exist? Or do you just think that the problem didn't bother YOU?

[tshile]

No, I don't need to create, or play along with, a hypothetical to back up my stance on the issue.

 

You don't know what happened. That's what matters. You've already admitted it.

[Larry]

No, I don't need to create, or play along with, a hypothetical to back up my stance on the issue.

 

You don't know what happened. That's what matters. You've already admitted it.

And neither do you.

Which does not in any way inhibit you from coming to an iron clad conclusion that the problem did not exist until the left created it.

 

Me, I'm willing to consider the possibility that the Universe does not consist solely of me. 

 

And here's at least two facts which I do know. 

 

1)  People like I described, actually did exist, 10 years ago.  Not many.  But I think the odds are overwhelming that there was at least one, somewhere in the US.

 

2)  And that person(s) went to the bathroom. 

 

In fact, I'll add a third fact that I know. 

 

3)  And going to the bathroom was a problem, for that person(s).  No matter which option they picked. 

 

Whether you want to admit it or not. 

[tshile]

And neither do you.

.... right, but i never claimed otherwise. i opened with that, actually. i'm also not advocating for any specific solution... or pretending that my assumptions should be taken as fact...

 

all issues you've had, not me...

 

 

Which does not in any way inhibit you from coming to an iron clad conclusion that the problem did not exist until the left created it.

Reading issues again, Larry? please show me where I said the left created it.

 

you can't. you're doing that thing you patrol the forums calling other people out for, you hypocrite.

 

Me, I'm willing to consider the possibility that the Universe does not consist solely of me.

Right, only you Larry are fighting the good fight. Keep it up. The world would be lost without you.

[Zguy28]

That gets to what I think is one of the core issues for people here. A lot of people don't appreciate that there is a difference between a transvestite and transgender. Not appreciating that difference makes it tougher, I think, to empathize with the difficultie trans people have fitting in.

So, is a girl wearing cargo pants an example of transgenderism? Or a flat top haircut? Because from some of the trans advocacy sites I've been researching, that is basically it. So, this whole bathroom thing is more about trans-sexual folks, not transgender.

 

The thing that strikes me in all of this is this: we define masculinity and femininity as how a male or female human acts. What it means to be masculine/feminine changes culturally, but it still is based on what a male or female acts like. When we say "I'm a male, but I identify as a woman and should be treated as such" they make meaningless the very definitions of gender they seek to embrace. Its self-defeating and causes confusion.

 

Oxford dictionary defines man and woman (which are gender terms) as:

 

Man

1. An adult human male. (a sexual term)

 

Woman

1. An adult human female. (a sexual term)

[Larry]

.... right, but i never claimed otherwise. i opened with that, actually. i'm also not advocating for any specific solution... or pretending that my assumptions should be taken as fact...

 

all issues you've had, not me...

 

 

Reading issues again, Larry? please show me where I said the left created it.

 

you can't. you're doing that thing you patrol the forums calling other people out for, you hypocrite.

Wow. And here I guess I must have misread you.

See, when I read this . . .

 

Yeah, when this topic comes up I always start with "I didn't know this was an issue.... what were transgender people doing before?"

Which causes people to pause for a second, then get back to the bickering.

But for that brief second there is a mutual admission of what this conversation really is... it's the right getting another chance to show the left's obsession with identity politics and it's the left's chance to throw another accusation of discrimination on the right.

it doesn't matter that bathrooms have been separated based on plumbing, not what you feel like, and you can't just wave your hands and change that then call the people who disagree with you bigots. i guess you can, and plenty do, but it's not a valid claim. it also doesn't matter that gender is apparently now something you get to decide, and the people who have made it so didn't bother consulting with anyone else on the matter, they just decided one day and then hurled accusations of bigotry at anyone who questioned their decision.

. . . and I see phrases like "I didn't know this was an issue", and "you can't just wave your hands and change that then call the people who disagree with you bigots", I kinda feel like I'm reading somebody who's asserting that the problem didn't exist, until someone tried to wave their hands and call the people who disagree with them bigots. 

 

(This opinion is kinda reinforced, when I make multiple posts pointing out that yeah, there actually was a problem, more than a few years ago, and the person who made the above post argues with that assertion.) 

 

But well, if you tell me that you didn't actually say what I'm reading, there (and in multiple followup posts), then I guess I must have misread you, and you really meant (some other meaning that I still don't see.) 

[tshile]

So I didn't blame it on the left.

What the left did was sign up for the 'you can declare yourself whatever gender you want' card, and they did do it without consulting anyone, and they do call anyone who disagrees a bigot.

And I don't know what they did before, and neither do you. It seems to me they've been using the bathroom for decades, unless this transgender thing just started recently? You're the expert you tell me.

Oh wait that's right you said all you have is your assumptions.

[Larry]

What the left did was sign up for the 'you can declare yourself whatever gender you want' card, and they did do it without consulting anyone, and they do call anyone who disagrees a bigot.

 

If gender isn't cast in stone at the instant of birth, then who's opinion of your gender ought to be the important one? 

 

It's kinda like my opinion about abortion.  I really feel like the father ought to have a vote, too.  But then, I have to ask myself:  If the mommy and daddy votes disagree, then what do we use for the tie breaker?  And I have to say that it's the one who's body is being used.

 

I certainly agree that a person's gender doesn't change every half hour, just on a whim.  (Although, admittedly, I might be willing to change that opinion, if given evidence.) 

 

But, to me, if gender is a decision, (and I reluctantly have to admit that it is.  At least in some cases.), then the person who's decision is determinative, has to be the individual involved. 

 

What's the alternative? Who do you think should determine what your gender is?

[Kosher Ham]

Flawed argument there Larry. 

 

Certainly a different topic however.   

[Major Harris]

Who do you think should determine what your gender is?

Nature did a bang up job of it for a very long time.

[Larry]

Nature did a bang up job of it for a very long time.

For a very large majority of the people.

But, apparently, not for every single one.

[Major Harris]

For a very large majority of the people.

But, apparently, not for every single one.

I'm not convinced of that yet. But i don't have to be either lol

[Bliz]

So, is a girl wearing cargo pants an example of transgenderism? Or a flat top haircut? Because from some of the trans advocacy sites I've been researching, that is basically it. So, this whole bathroom thing is more about trans-sexual folks, not transgender.

 

The thing that strikes me in all of this is this: we define masculinity and femininity as how a male or female human acts. What it means to be masculine/feminine changes culturally, but it still is based on what a male or female acts like. When we say "I'm a male, but I identify as a woman and should be treated as such" they make meaningless the very definitions of gender they seek to embrace. Its self-defeating and causes confusion.

 

I don't know what sites you've been looking at, but no, garden variety dressing like a tomboy is not imo a example of transgenderism. Which was exactly my point. I hope advocacy sites aren't focusing on things like that because it really trivializes the serious psychological side of legit transgender people. There's a big difference between getting a short haircut and trying to live your entire life as a woman (and maybe get that surgery someday if you can afford it and pass all the necessary psych evals)

[twa]

perhaps biology should rule till they are old enough to smoke or drink legally?

 

always find it odd the choices some allow minors while restricting others(myself included)

[The 12th Commandment]

perhaps biology should rule till they are old enough to smoke or drink legally?

 

always find it odd the choices some allow minors while restricting others(myself included)

...and vote.

 

I agree with this.  It seems to me a kid who has a real issue with it can get some individual resolution from the officials at their school.  It would be better if this were all spelled out so the inevitable idiot wouldn't make a mess of it, but you can't legislate idiocy out of existence.