twa Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 I have no problem with shooting to protect property, but her actions were certainly reckless and foolish. she is lucky no one got hurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattFancy Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 I have no problem with shooting to protect property, but her actions were certainly reckless and foolish. she is lucky no one got hurt I don't say this much, but I agree with twa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 Just heard a report on TV about this. Guy was defending this saying that he wanted to raise awareness that the one constant in mass shootings was gun free zones. Even if it were true, which I don't think it is for all three hundred this year, he's missing the big CONSTANT. The one constant every single one of these tragedies had in common. It's not mental health It's not Muslims It's not gun free zones It's not Right Wing Extremists It's guns. If you want to talk about the one constant among three hundred mass murders in the US... that's the damn target they keep missing every time they pull the trigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 The one constant is guns? LOL ya ignore the obvious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slateman Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 Just heard a report on TV about this. Guy was defending this saying that he wanted to raise awareness that the one constant in mass shootings was gun free zones. Even if it were true, which I don't think it is for all three hundred this year, he's missing the big CONSTANT. The one constant every single one of these tragedies had in common. It's not mental health It's not Muslims It's not gun free zones It's not Right Wing Extremists It's guns. If you want to talk about the one constant among three hundred mass murders in the US... that's the damn target they keep missing every time they pull the trigger. Except by saying this, you have effectively made the argument that all guns should be banned and confiscated. Everything else would fall under the plethora of gun control measures that have been tried and have been deemed, by you, as unsuccessful. The only away around it would be a total and irrevocable ban. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokerPacker Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 And the one thing that's constant in all car collision deaths is cars. And water is wet. Did you know a knife is used in all knife stabbings? And a cop is involved in every police shooting. The internet is used in online bullying. etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 Well, there's the problem. She's an idiot. In scary emergency situations, most of us temporarily become idiots. That's why they give law enforcement and the military so much training. And that's why I don't buy the idea that having lots of armed people will be more beneficial than harmful in emergency situations. What we really will get is lots and lots of armed temporary idiots. Except by saying this, you have effectively made the argument that all guns should be banned and confiscated. Everything else would fall under the plethora of gun control measures that have been tried and have been deemed, by you, as unsuccessful. The only away around it would be a total and irrevocable ban. He didn't say anything of the sort. C'mon now. When people say someone has "effectively made the argument that..." most of the time what they really are doing is saying "here's how I plan to misrepresent your argument." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slateman Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 In scary emergency situations, most of us temporarily become idiots. That's why they give law enforcement and the military so much training. And that's why I don't buy the idea that having lots of armed people will be more beneficial than harmful in emergency situations. What we really will get is lots and lots of armed temporary idiots. He didn't say anything of the sort. C'mon now. When people say someone has "effectively made the argument that..." most of the time what they really are doing is saying "here's how I plan to misrepresent your argument." Not really. I see of no other alternative. Either you accept the gun deaths as the cost of having a Second Amendment, or you do away with it all together. There is no middle ground on this. Not if you're going to say that the one constant in mass shootings is a gun. Not when you're going to eliminate every other issue that has been accounted for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 So it kind of like allowing liberals to vote?.....a necessary evil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 Except by saying this, you have effectively made the argument that all guns should be banned and confiscated. Everything else would fall under the plethora of gun control measures that have been tried and have been deemed, by you, as unsuccessful. The only away around it would be a total and irrevocable ban. Except they really haven't been tried, have they? The efforts have been blocked and undermined and over the last twenty years at least no real efforts at gun control have been attempted especially at the national level.. and it should be at the national level because it's far too easy for people from DC to cross into Virginia and thumb their nose at restrictions. It's completely dishonest to see they have been tried. Honestly, the gun rights crowd has won pretty much every fight they've entered over the last 20 years. In the courts and legislatures they are the undisputed heavy weight champs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 I could have sworn we had another thread for debating gun control in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slateman Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 Except they really haven't been tried, have they? The efforts have been blocked and undermined and over the last twenty years at least no real efforts at gun control have been attempted especially at the national level.. and it should be at the national level because it's far too easy for people from DC to cross into Virginia and thumb their nose at restrictions. It's completely dishonest to see they have been tried. No, they have. Now you're being dishonest. The system was perfectly implemented in California and it continues to fail. You said the problem was guns. There is only one solution to the problem that you have stated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokerPacker Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 I could have sworn we had another thread for debating gun control in.You're right. This thread is supposed to be about my move to Texas! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 The one constant is guns? LOL ya ignore the obvious You're right. He should have said "guns and dead people". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duckus Posted December 12, 2015 Author Share Posted December 12, 2015 The system was perfectly implemented in California and it continues to fail. Please google "bullet button loophole." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 Please google "bullet button loophole." I'm just marveling in awe at the assertion that California's gun laws are perfect in every way. How can you spoil the majesty of that perfection? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slateman Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 Please google "bullet button loophole." And the other countries that have the same law? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 No, they have. Now you're being dishonest. The system was perfectly implemented in California and it continues to fail. You said the problem was guns. There is only one solution to the problem that you have stated. I bet you couldn't find many gun control advocates who'd say "gun control" was perfectly implemented in California. More, like I said in the answer you quoted... a state solution is insufficient because it's too easy to work around. So, if we are going to try to implement restrictions to see if they work (and Petermp has posted tons of studies that show that they empirically have) then you need to attack the problem nationwide. The state approach is sort of like saying that you are going to try broad spectrum antibiotics in the pinky, tying a tourniquet around it and hoping it will protect the foot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slateman Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 I'm just marveling in awe at the assertion that California's gun laws are perfect in every way. How can you spoil the majesty of that perfection?Hey I'm not. I think they're far too strict. But California is the supposed model for gun laws by anti-gun activists. Background checks, mental health laws, waiting periods, assault weapon bans, and magazine limits. All found in other countries that allow firearms (Canada). I bet you couldn't find many gun control advocates who'd say "gun control" was perfectly implemented in California. More, like I said in the answer you quoted... a state solution is insufficient because it's too easy to work around. So, if we are going to try to implement restrictions to see if they work (and Petermp has posted tons of studies that show that they emperically have) then you need to attack the problem nationwide. The state approach is sort of like saying that you are going to try broad spectrum antibiotics in the pinky, tying a tourniquet around it and hoping it will protect the foot. That's because gun control advocates are not actually advocates of gun control, but just want guns removed.For all intents and purposes, the San Berdino terrorist attack was a national solution. The guns were bought in state, through a background check, a mental health check, a waiting period, and met all assault weapon ban requirements. Still happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 Ah, got it. California is perfect, according to OTHER PEOPLE. According to you. (I might be more inclined to trust your ability to speak on behalf of other people's opinions, if I hadn't read your last five posts). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slateman Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 Ah, got it. California is perfect, according to OTHER PEOPLE. According to you. (I might be more inclined to trust your ability to speak on behalf of other people's opinions, if I hadn't read your last five posts). According to several anti-gun advocacy groups, such as the Brady Campaign. Ranked them number 1 last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 Hey I'm not. I think they're far too strict. But California is the supposed model for gun laws by anti-gun activists. Background checks, mental health laws, waiting periods, assault weapon bans, and magazine limits. All found in other countries that allow firearms (Canada). That's because gun control advocates are actually advocates of gun control, but just want guns removed. For all intents and purposes, the San Berdino terrorist attack was a national solution. The guns were bought in state, through a background check, a mental health check, a waiting period, and met all assault weapon ban requirements. Still happened. You are correct. Even with background checks, improved mental health (but let's be honest we are far, far deficient in this area even in California) and all the rest... some holes will remain in the net. Are you really saying we will be better off without a net at all or that the net has no value? Wouldn't it be better to reinfoce and improve the net and continue to make it harder for the bad guys, the crazy, and the terrorists to win easy access to guns? Are you saying we should disband the CIA, FBI, NSA, etc. because terrorism still happens and we don't identify and stop every instance so why try? I know you're not asking us to remove all screenings at airports even though tests show they are frequently flawed. You don't want to disband the police force even though crimes still go unsolved. Using this kind of absolutism in logic gets us nowhere. The fact is we have to include guns in the conversation about gun control. It really is stupid not to and for the most part, that's what we do when any conversation is even permissible. We'll blame the mentally ill, the terrorists, the gun free zones, human nature, biology... pretty much everything except the tool itself. And all of the above are worthy to talk about. They are issues that matter, but it also matters that government agencies aren't allowed to research gun violence. It also matters that the tool itself is the constant and the fact that it is more accessible now makes these acts far more frequent than any other time in American history and makes us unique around the world. We are doing something wrong. If it is worse today and worse here than everywhere else we ought to at least be honest in confronting the true issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 According to several anti-gun advocacy groups, such as the Brady Campaign. Ranked them number 1 last year. I'm going to assume that that's true. (Although not sure why). Eh. "Number 1". "Perfectly implemented". Obviously the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chew Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 Anything on this? Didn't see any updates on CNN or The Twitter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGoodBits Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 Anything on this? Didn't see any updates on CNN or The Twitter I was watching a program on Al Jazeera America earlier and saw a mention on this on their scroll update ticker. Just said that the group was outnumbered by counter-protesters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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