The immigration thread: American Melting Pot or Get off my Lawn

[Destino]

Everyone points out the evils of the immigration situation, and I'm glad for that, but without a offered solution there's really no movement on this issue at all.  There's nothing to move towards.  The issue simply remains a politicly useful one, at the expense of the poor caught up in it.  Democrats are happily tell reporters that they are horrified by abuses, but do nothing about it when they hold power.  Republicans tout detention of migrants and deportations as evidence they are tough on enforcement, but also do very little to change the overall situation when they hold power.   

 

Estimates of the total US illegal population is around 12 million.  If that were a state it would be the 7th most populous state in the union.  Then you have the influx of additional illegal immigrants that arrive by the hundreds of thousands every year. 

 

This is an enormous problem, no matter what side of the debate your on.  Doing nothing maintains an enormous underclass that lives in fear of detention, deportation, and family separation (which is not new).  Detaining them all would be like placing the entire state of Ohio, in terms of population, in a detention center of some kind. 

 

So what does a functioning immigration system look like?  What are we working towards by which we can gauge our progress?  Doing nothing has to stop.

 

 

 

[Larry]

1 hour ago, Destino said:

Democrats are happily tell reporters that they are horrified by abuses, but do nothing about it when they hold power.

 

Uh, I'm under the impression that a whole lot of the abuses being pointed out, lately, were to a large extent created by the current administration.  (Often intentionally.)  

 

(And yes, twa, I'm quite certain that if you dig hard enough, you can find one kid who was treated badly under Obama, and pretend that therefore intentionally doing it to hundreds doesn't matter.)  

 

Kinda hard to blame the Dems for not preventing these abuses before they happened.  

 

[twa]

I wouldn't need to dig hard at all....but why bother since you ignored it while it happened.

[Larry]

1 hour ago, Destino said:

Doing nothing maintains an enormous underclass that lives in fear of detention, deportation, and family separation (which is not new).  Detaining them all would be like placing the entire state of Ohio, in terms of population, in a detention center of some kind. 

 

So what does a functioning immigration system look like?  What are we working towards by which we can gauge our progress?  Doing nothing has to stop.

 

Pretty sure Obama didn't "do nothing".  

 

(Yeah, I wouldn't have much problem with labeling it as "very little".  Dealing fairly with the Dreamers, IMO, is a step in the right direction.  But I assume it's a step that only applies to a small portion of the problem.)  

 

[TradeTheBeal!]

If anyone can think of a time when the US didn’t have a giant minority underclass, I’d like to hear it.  Fairly safe to say that a cheap immigrant labor force is a feature of our economic system, not a bug.  The only real rub is how many rights and benefits we allow them to have...same as it ever was.

[Cooked Crack]

 

[twa]

confiscation is standard anytime someone is taken in custody....illegal or not.

[Cooked Crack]

Quote

So unless it is very clear that it is from a legitimate provider and that it's a legitimate medication,” he continued, “generally speaking, Border Patrol will confiscate that, but only in the context of making sure that alien or migrant is evaluated onsite or at a local hospital to identify what medication they need.” Once the migrant receives a diagnosis and a U.S. prescription, the official said, Border Patrol agents will then fill the prescription and dispense medication accordingly. “We do not have the migrants self-medicating while they're in holding.”

Quote

While Levy said she has seen some people arrive at the shelters with U.S. prescriptions they got from a doctor while in Border Patrol custody, “it’s definitely more frequent that meds are taken away without giving them replacement prescriptions.”

Thank you, next 

[Destino]

5 hours ago, Larry said:

 

Pretty sure Obama didn't "do nothing".  

 

(Yeah, I wouldn't have much problem with labeling it as "very little".  Dealing fairly with the Dreamers, IMO, is a step in the right direction.  But I assume it's a step that only applies to a small portion of the problem.)  

 

He kicked the can down the road on the dreamers.  That’s why they’re in crisis again today.  He wanted to do better but he could never get congress to act.  Real change requires strong party support, not just one president.  That’s why I spoke in term of Democrats and republican, not Obama and Trump.

 

I’m perfectly comfortable saying democrats did nothing.

[Destino]

5 hours ago, Larry said:

 

Uh, I'm under the impression that a whole lot of the abuses being pointed out, lately, were to a large extent created by the current administration.  (Often intentionally.)  

 

(And yes, twa, I'm quite certain that if you dig hard enough, you can find one kid who was treated badly under Obama, and pretend that therefore intentionally doing it to hundreds doesn't matter.)  

 

Kinda hard to blame the Dems for not preventing these abuses before they happened.  

 

Which ones?  I have images saved of kids in cages from the Obama administration.  Trump has made things worse, but they’ve been bad.  No one was paying attention before.  The liberal press wasn’t looking too hard, and the right wing media is never concerned with the plight of immigrants.  They celebrate it, if anything.  

 

Family seperations aren't new either.  Look up the adoption of Carlos Moser as an example.  Immigration picked up his mother and they adopted him away.  US courts have refused to give him back.  Her child was effectively stolen... and it happened long before Trump.

 

Obama wanted to change things, but in two years with a democrat controlled congress couldn’t convince the party to do anything substance.  Bush wanted to change things too and came the closest to doing it, but it fell short.  Bernie Sanders opposed comprehensive immigration reform back then because he said unions didn’t like it.  

 

Trump has made things worse.  This shouldn’t really surprise anyone, the same could be said about a long list of issues.  It’s kind of his thing.

 

all in all neither party has substantively changed the status quo and there remains a massive underclass.  

[Larry]

4 hours ago, Destino said:

Which ones?

 

Just to pick the biggest one?  Do you "have images saved" of Obama intentionally crafting a plan to wholesale strip children from their parents as part of a deliberate policy of scaring people away from attempting illegal immigration?  

 

I haven't looked at the case you suggested (yet). But I'm already willing to bet that it didn't happen because Obama (or whoever it was) directed his staff to come up with a way he can get that kid away from his parents, that'll teach 'em. 

 

But yeah, if your standard is "has either Party completely eliminated immigrants as an underclass? Well, if they haven't, then they did nothing.", then you're right, they both "did nothing". 

[Riggo-toni]

[CousinsCowgirl84]

Trump ultimately has the right idea despite the horribly ineffective implementation: Get Mexico to do something to curb the influx of illegal immigrants into our country. 

 

 

I think it’s funny for people to claim Mexico has the high ground when they refuse to grant asylum to anyone entering their country. That’s the same exact position Trump has.

[TradeTheBeal!]

Again, our entire economy is now and always has been built on an influx of cheap immigrant labor.  From a pragmatic view, there is no long-term downside, economic or otherwise, for the US to absorb asylum seekers/laborers and their families...no matter their origin.

 

UNLESS...you have a racially-motivated fear of whites losing their majority.  And that’s the song that Trump and the GOP is playing.  And some of us are dancing right along.

 

I’d also like to add that owning/running detention camps is extremely lucrative for a select few.

[twa]

is there a short term downside you ignore?

[tshile]

16 hours ago, Destino said:

Democrats are happily tell reporters that they are horrified by abuses, but do nothing about it when they hold power. 

Important to note that when this started becoming an “issue”, most of the stuff being reported actually happened under the Obama admin. Remember the doctors notes that were released? Majority were dated in 2016 or earlier I believe. 

 

Obviously the Trump admin has made it worse. 

 

Its just important to note that while one group isn’t even pretending to care, the others (now feigning outrage) was actually in charge when it all started. 

Edited June 6, 2019 by tshile

[tshile]

1 hour ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

Trump ultimately has the right idea despite the horribly ineffective implementation: Get Mexico to do something to curb the influx of illegal immigrants into our country. 

 

 

I think it’s funny for people to claim Mexico has the high ground when they refuse to grant asylum to anyone entering their country. That’s the same exact position Trump has.

Yup. Right idea, wrong person to do it. 

 

And the admins that preceded his that turned a blind eye to a complicit narco state ‘government’ as well as all those members of all those iterations of Congress share in the blame. 

 

If you don’t do your job when there’s a crisis you risk someone else stepping in and making it worse. That’s what’s happened. 

 

We see the same problems elsewhere. 

 

People need to stop only asking for accountability of the other party, and start holding their own accountable as well. Inaction on a serious issue is unacceptable. 

55 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

there is no long-term downside, economic or otherwise, for the US to absorb asylum seekers/laborers and their families...no matter their origin.

 

This nonsense, at least in a sense that it’s incomplete

 

there are absolutely downsides to bringing in immigrants in an uncontrolled manner. And it’s all been playing out before our eyes for at least two decades. 

 

The crisis we’re seeing now (both in towns being left behind and at the border, as well as drug smuggling, human trafficking, and crime) are the result of decades of poor policy and planning. Not just with immigration but with the drug war, general criminal justice system, globalization, poverty, etc. 

 

Pinning it all on the trump admin and lazy. The problem is much bigger. 

Edited June 6, 2019 by tshile

[CousinsCowgirl84]

1 hour ago, TryTheBeal! said:

Again, our entire economy is now and always has been built on an influx of cheap immigrant labor.  From a pragmatic view, there is no long-term downside, economic or otherwise, for the US to absorb asylum seekers/laborers and their families...no matter their origin.

 

 

Maybe maybe not.  The influx of poor people increases the burden on our social welfare system, at the very least of which is an increased demand for schools and emergency services, that costs money which isn’t offset by tax revenue sine poor people don’t pay taxes.

 

ultimately your argument is making the case for abolishing the minimum wage, and union labor, which I’m all for. Different topic though.

[TradeTheBeal!]

Much like roaches scurrying when the kitchen light goes on at 3AM, our Trump apologists reflexively lapse into whataboutism whenever a tiny light of truth is shone upon them.

 

For T-dog, it’s the repeated dog-whistle assertion that drug-smuggling, human trafficking and “crime” is a strictly Latino problem that can be fixed by getting tough on Mexico.  Big newsflash...white American folks do all of these things all of the time.  

 

For Cowgirl, were gonna go with a Hail Mary and try to flip the conversation to abolishing unions and the minimum wage.  Hilarious!

 

And TrollBot clicks into interrogative sea-lion mode.

 

True to form, across the board.

 

Edited June 6, 2019 by TryTheBeal!

[twa]

Your 'truth' only deals with limited aspects.

 

But in the long term you don't matter 

[tshile]

43 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

For T-dog, it’s the repeated dog-whistle assertion that drug-smuggling, human trafficking and “crime” is a strictly Latino problem that can be fixed by getting tough on Mexico.

That’s not what I said. 

 

You actually voted for trump. So you should probably keep your accusations of supporting him to yourself. Not only are you wrong about others, but you actually voted for him. 

 

It it seems difficult for you to keep things straight. So maybe not opine on those things so you don’t look like a fool so often? I suppose it’s a matter of choice, ultimately.  

[Bozo the kKklown]

If you want to have nations like Mexico, Honduras, El Salvador, etc. stop undocumented persons coming to this country, why don't we have fair trade deals with those nations and help boost their economies? That way, people wouldn't want to come here. Oh, wait that hurts our empire and would make us pay more for goods and products? My bad.

[CousinsCowgirl84]

2 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

If you want to have nations like Mexico, Honduras, El Salvador, etc. stop undocumented persons coming to this country, why don't we have fair trade deals with those nations and help boost their economies? That way, people wouldn't want to come here. Oh, wait that hurts our empire and would make us pay more for goods and products? My bad.

 

 

I agree with you, what kind of trade deals would you like to see. I thought are trade deals with those countries has been very fair historically, but, that hasn’t helped.  Obviously trump made things worse by ending nafta and threatening Mexico with tariffs, but illegal immigration has been a problem for the last 30 years... 

[No Excuses]

17 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

If you want to have nations like Mexico, Honduras, El Salvador, etc. stop undocumented persons coming to this country, why don't we have fair trade deals with those nations and help boost their economies? That way, people wouldn't want to come here. Oh, wait that hurts our empire and would make us pay more for goods and products? My bad.

 

The current policy of this administration is to wage an economic war against Mexico and cut foreign aid to Central American countries. Because you know, that will surely curb the flow of people fleeing poverty. 😂

 

Improving trade practices and fixing the immigration system to legalize necessary labor from currently undocumented migrants would make things wee bit more expensive for Americans and suddenly give legal rights to brown people. And we can't have that in a nation of Walmart shopping penny pinchers.

 

Easier to just label undocumented workers as drug smuggling deviants, calling Central American countries "enablers" and enacting dumb foreign policies that only serve to incentivize more people to flee to the US. For the GOP, illegal immigration is both great economically for the business sectors that support them and great to rile up the racists who vote for them. For the Democrats, they couldn't find their balls to do the right thing and make a stronger case for opening immigration laws for fear of being labeled "open-borders globalists".

 

So we find ourselves in a situation where the overton window on immigration is decidedly to the right, because they at least put forward policies, even if they are monstrous in nature. God help the Democrats if they ever find it in themselves to say "we should open immigration laws to poor people in Central American to migrate to the US legally because we need their labor and we have a history of building our nation by welcoming the poor and vulnerable and allowing them to succeed over generations".

Edited June 6, 2019 by No Excuses

[Bozo the kKklown]

6 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

 

The current policy of this administration is to wage an economic war against Mexico and cut foreign aid to Central American countries. Because you know, that will surely curb the flow of people fleeing poverty. 😂

 

Improving trade practices and fixing the immigration system to legalize necessary labor from currently undocumented migrants would make things wee bit more expensive for Americans and suddenly give legal rights to brown people. And we can't have that in a nation of Walmart shopping penny pinchers.

 

Easier to just label undocumented workers as drug smuggling deviants, calling Central American countries "enablers" and enacting dumb foreign policies that only serve to incentivize more people to flee to the US. For the GOP, illegal immigration is both great economically for the business sectors that support them and great to rile up the racists who vote for them. For the Democrats, they couldn't find their balls to do the right thing and make a stronger case for opening immigration laws for fear of being labeled "open-borders globalists".

 

So we find ourselves in a situation where the overton window on immigration is decidedly to the right, because they at least put forward policies, even if they are monstrous in nature. God help the Democrats if they ever find it in themselves to say "we should open immigration laws to poor people in Central American to migrate to the US legally because we need their labor and we have a history of building our nation by welcoming the poor and vulnerable and allowing them to succeed over generations".

I'm agreeing with everything you said, but this didn't start with the current administration.