Thoughts on Cousins and the next few weeks

[Alexa]

The trade was too expensive. Never should have done it. I think RG3 was a top player in the 2012 draft. He was worthy of being drafted top 5,  but not to the point of overpaying like we/they did.

[Skinsinparadise]

The discussion currently has been more or less with me, Califan, skinsparadise, Taylor.. on one side of the argument and ncrh2, brokenstriker,kuniti.

None of the people I mentioned have bashed Cousins. If we have it should be fairly easy to find a post doing so.

On the other hand you know as well as I do that those posters I mentioned have not only bashed Griffin but have purposefully posted misleading 'stats'.

 

 

To me this debate has mostly been:  Some of Cousins backers have been one of these three points:

 

A.  Cousins is better than RG3,  he's a better pocket passer, sharper at reading defenses, is decisive and makes the O line look better

B.  RG3 isn't going to be a franchise QB 

C.  Cousins has actually been good in his short stint if you look at the numbers or context in a different way versus harping on aggregate stats. 

 

The RG3 backers, am included, mostly respond because the Cousins discussion drags RG3 down in the process.  And when it goes there, most of us are saying.

 

A.  If you are going to compare, how can we ignore metrics when it comes to judging the two players?  Even if you take the supposed horrid 2013 RG3 season, he kicked Cousins butt that year statistically, too.  If Cousins has been so good, and we are just blind to it, how come the rest of the NFL missed it too when they tried to trade him last off season?

B.  RG3 is a good player, he doesn't suck at this or that

C.  We tout RG3's skill set and his magical 2011 college and 2012 pro season.

 

Bashing Cousins isn't really part of the discussion, outside of why should the dude be giving a pass on metrics?  Lets see what he can do now?  I am looking forward to seeing Cousins play, I'd love it if he's this stud that some are convinced he is.   But yeah I think DG is dead on, the hate seems directed at RG3.  Its Cousins is this and RG3 isn't...  A lot of negative energy exist with some directed at RG3 and I don't think its likewise directed back against Cousins.  I got no problems with Cousins but if Cousins is going to be used as a tool to knock down RG3, I'll respond if I think its unfair. 

[UK Skins]

Almost every Griffin homer on here has bashed Cousins. In this thread and others. And most aren't directing any hate towards Griffin either. I guess you need to be a Griffin homer to feel that way. If Cousins is so much more inferior why do the Griffin homers feel so insecure about him?

 

The stats may well support Griffin. The eye-ball test would seem to support Cousins. The argument here seems to rest on whether Griffin is, or will be the same player that put up those stats, and whether Cousins is a better player in this system since he looked so bad last year.

 

Since I never expected to beat the Eagles in Philly I don't think that argument will be resolved this weekend either ;-)

[ghosti]

To me this debate has mostly been:  Some of Cousins backers have been one of these three points:

 

A.  Cousins is better than RG3,  he's a better pocket passer, sharper at reading defenses, is decisive and makes the O line look better

B.  RG3 isn't going to be a franchise QB 

C.  Cousins has actually been good in his short stint if you look at the numbers or context in a different way versus harping on aggregate stats. 

 

The RG3 backers, am included, mostly respond because the Cousins discussion drags RG3 down in the process.  And when it goes there, most of us are saying.

 

A.  If you are going to compare, how can we ignore metrics when it comes to judging the two players?  Even if you take the supposed horrid 2013 RG3 season, he kicked Cousins butt that year statistically, too.  If Cousins has been so good, and we are just blind to it, how come the rest of the NFL missed it too when they tried to trade him last off season?

B.  RG3 is a good player, he doesn't suck at this or that

C.  We tout RG3's skill set and his magical 2011 college and 2012 pro season.

 

Bashing Cousins isn't really part of the discussion, outside of why should the dude be giving a pass on metrics?  Lets see what he can do now?  I am looking forward to seeing Cousins play, I'd love it if he's this stud that some are convinced he is.   But yeah I think DG is dead on, the hate seems directed at RG3.  Its Cousins is this and RG3 isn't...  A lot of negative energy exist with some directed at RG3 and I don't think its likewise directed back against Cousins.  I got no problems with Cousins but if Cousins is going to be used as a tool to knock down RG3, I'll respond if I think its unfair. 

because the metrics are skewed…  RG had good stats against the Texans but 14 of his passes were behind the line, not even down field.  Compare that to Cousins, who throws down field, his stats obviously are going to be lower and MORE ACCURATE than RGs.  Problem some have with RG lovers is the fact they pick and choose the stats that only make him look good and ignore everything else he isn’t doing right.  Example.. We scored 6 points against the Texans, yet, all they can throw out is how accurate he was and how bad the line was.  They forget we only scored 6 points and that he had a .7 Yard per pass in the first half.  They forget the overthrows to wide open guys, the sacks that are basically all on him because he didn’t get rid of the ball or left the pocket too early.  

 

They also like to throw out that Cousins played great against a bad team.. Really?  RG played bad against a bad team with the Texans.  I would put them at or near us and Jax when it comes to poor play in the last year.  Plus, we score 41 points with Cousins this week and 6 points against a bad team with RG the prior week.  Then all RG fans say is we would have scored 40 points too with RG3 because the first 3 plays of the game he looked great.  lol

 

So basically some people who love rg are really grasping for straws when it comes to his playing ability while others who prefer Cousins are saying, the guys not bad and to give him a chance.  We never say he’s gonna win us a super bowl, but we know he’ll win us more games and at least keep us in the games that we would probably be blown out of with RG.  

[darrelgreenie]

One question: none of you are concerned about RG3 not being able to reach that ceiling due to injury (both physically and mentally?)

I'm really worried about him being relegated to running like he did in 2012 right after the injury.

...This is an example of bashing...

Yeah I think it's pretty simple. The facts are RG3's injuries, holding onto the ball for so long, unable to read defenses from an overloaded blitz. Is that good enough? Cause he sure improved on reading overloaded blitzes, and holding onto the ball to long this year right? Looks really comfortable in the pocket as opposed to last year right? RG3 is a RO QB and most of us are starting to realize this.

[Brokenstriker]

Uhh, Brokenstriker...

Robert only has 33-Turnovers (30-Games/Career): 17-Int.'s & 16-Fumbles!?!

http://www.nfl.com/player/robertgriffiniii/2533033/careerstats

sorry about that ... it was late and obviously I screwed up on that

[darrelgreenie]

Why would I use the sum of their careers to base a decision on which QB is better at running Grudens offense? It's only been in place for a few months. What they've done in the past is not relevant.

Lol, to each their own. For me its far more relevant then pre-season.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

...This is an example of bashing...

What I said was bashing??

[Brokenstriker]

 screwed that up ... sorry .  It was late and I had two different stats sites open.  I'd appreciate a pass on that ... but if you're into bashing an honest mistake ... bash away ... its was a pretty major dumb @$$ mistake to be sure

 

How does Griffin have 46 TOs.  Even adding fumbles (total) and INTs is 42!!  And many fumbles were recovered.

 

 

Uhh, Brokenstriker...

Robert only has 33-Turnovers (30-Games/Career): 17-Int.'s & 16-Fumbles!?!

http://www.nfl.com/player/robertgriffiniii/2533033/careerstats

 

 

He didn't even get the number right if he counted ALL fumbles by Griffin and his INTs.

 

Why even bother, I wonder?

 

Here's the difference between the Campbell debates (and Brunell, both where I was looking for another solution at QB,) neither side outright lied about or manufactured statistics to support their arguments, at least not intentionally.  But I keep seeing people wanting to count even those quick fumble-scoop recoveries on triple friggin options or other read options plays as being the same as "fumble-prone."  

 

Reality?

RG3 sack percentage is an unacceptably high 7.5 pct. compared to Kirk at 4.1%.

 

Interception percentage? RG3: 1.9% KC: 4.2%

YPA: 7.5 vs. 6.7, Net yard per attempt (after accting for sacks) 6.43 vs. 6.06

Kirk's is .02 percent higher in TD%

 

Looking at the numbers, it's hard to believe Kirk would stay at his sub-60 completion percentage, he is above 65 this year and was above it in 2012.

 

 

Griffin hasn't had 46 turnovers lol...not to mention, how can he have 43 TDs in 30 games but only average 1.02 TDs per game?

[darrelgreenie]

...I think you give him a year or two (at least to the end of his contract) to work out.

Good post.

I agree with everything except I think Griffin was gonna be good quickly. The transition to becoming more of a progression read QB imho doesn't need to take years. If rookie spread QBs like Dalton, Newton, Bradford etc can make the transition then I had no doubt Griffin would not only make the transition but excell, barring injury.

[KuNiT21]

...This is an example of bashing...

 

LOL, that is bashing?  Really?

[darrelgreenie]

What I said was bashing??

No this...

Yeah I think it's pretty simple. The facts are RG3's injuries, holding onto the ball for so long, unable to read defenses from an overloaded blitz. Is that good enough? Cause he sure improved on reading overloaded blitzes, and holding onto the ball to long this year right? Looks really comfortable in the pocket as opposed to last year right? RG3 is a RO QB and most of us are starting to realize this.

[UK Skins]

What I said was bashing??

I didn't think either quote was bashing. Sure the Griffin fans won't agree with either but those are two perfectly valid opinions IMO.

 

(Perhaps the sarcasm in the second quote made it "bashing"?)

[Jumbo]

Please stop, your embarrassing yourself with your RG3 homerism and it's annoying.  The fact that you can possibly watch the entire game and come up with a conclusion that our Oline didn't look better with Kirk is absolutely mind boggling and completely dismisses any case nor football knowledge you like to pretend/gloat you know around here.

 

 

Tone it down (not bad advice for many).

 

Just in general--some of the stupidest **** on this board (and the menu is extensive) is from the people needing to **** on RGIII or Kirk and/or each other in making their "QB controversy" points (or what's intended as "points").

 

Wouldn't kill some folks to at least try to pretend they're able to argue a point of view without sounding like a thirteen year old male on their xstation or playbox, whatever.

 

(grumble grumble grumble)

 

 

 

 

[darrelgreenie]

The trade was too expensive. Never should have done it. I think RG3 was a top player in the 2012 draft. He was worthy of being drafted top 5,  but not to the point of overpaying like we/they did.

I actually agree and said so at the time. I didn't agree with the cost but was happy with the acquisition. Philosophically trading up only makes sense in rare cases. But I don't see what that has to do with this discussion.

What I said was bashing??

And I'm still waiting to see read this Cousins bashing.

Either way it appears any reasonable conversation in this thread has run it course.

[Alexa]

So what if Kirk plays lights out. Then what? Is Griffin the one that's on the trade block? Would it be too tough for the organization to go with a 4th rounder?

[skins island connection]

Tone it down (not bad advice for many).

 

Just in general--some of the stupidest **** on this board (and the menu is extensive) is from the people needing to **** on RGIII or Kirk and/or each other in making their "QB controversy" points (or what's intended as "points").

 

Wouldn't kill some folks to at least try to pretend they're able to argue a point of view without sounding like a thirteen year old male on their xstation or playbox, whatever.

 

(grumble grumble grumble)

 

 

 

 

 

 I'd love to see Griffin come out and say 'I just suck, Cousins is the man with the plan'.

 Then see Cousins come out and say 'I blow chunks, Griffin is the real deal'.

 

 Half of this board would probably spontaniously combust out of sheer double confusion.

[Alexa]

Yeah I know man, you know everything about everything.  I mean RG3 always looks 100% comfortable in the pocket waiting 5-7 seconds.  I mean he wasn't hurried at all or sacked in the first 2 series of the game.  Please remove your RG3 shades already dude, it's annoying.  He isn't a franchise QB and he isn't improving.  Stop whining like a baby because our team flat out plays better under Kirk INCLUDING our Oline.

I think it's unfair to say Griffin isn't or hasn't improved as he really only played one game. He was benched for taking hit/sacks in 2013 and at least in that area I would agree as he took some that he didn't need to against Houston. But again, it's hard to judge him off one game. 8 games would have been a fair sample size.

[ncr2h]

Here's another issues I have with starting Kirk long term. Kirk is smart, decisive, all of that. But with our weapons, isn't the most important thing we need from a QB is a deep ball?

 

Would anyone argue that RG3 doesn't have a better deep ball? He has shown the first two weeks to have the short and long throws down. The intermediate routes, which I think take better timing and confidence, is what I think Kirk might excel at but RG3 did it just as well in his first season.

 

Given time I think RG3 will be as strong or strong that Kirk at all the throws. He may never be as good at reading defenses (if they would both keep improving), but I also don't think Kirk will ever have Roberts deep ball.

 

On passes that travel more than 20 yards in the air:

RG3 amazing deep ball: 27/87, 31%, 976 yards, 11 ypa, 11 TD, 3 INT

Cousins noodle arm: 6/16, 38%, 295 yards, 18 ypa, 4 TD, 1 INT

 

On passes that travel 40+ yards in the air:

RG3 amazing deep ball: 6/26, 23%, 332 yards, 13 ypa, 6 TD, 0 INT

Cousins noodle arm: 1/2, 50%, 62 yards, 31 ypa, 0 TD, 0 INT (Morris fumbled on the very next play, Cousins takes blame for loss)

 

PM me with recommended tweaks to make RG3's stats look better, so that this can change from a RG3 bashing post to a neutral and objective post.

[Skinsinparadise]

because the metrics are skewed…  RG had good stats against the Texans but 14 of his passes were behind the line, not even down field.  Compare that to Cousins, who throws down field, his stats obviously are going to be lower and MORE ACCURATE than RGs.  Problem some have with RG lovers is the fact they pick and choose the stats that only make him look good and ignore everything else he isn’t doing right.  Example.. We scored 6 points against the Texans, yet, all they can throw out is how accurate he was and how bad the line was.  

 

You are making my point.  Cousins good-RG3 bad -- metrics aren't about aggregate numbers but lets pick one game.   Personally, I think RG3 played great in 2012, so so in 2013, ok in the first game, great in a small sample in the 2nd.  But for me really the deal about RG3 (as John Keim ironically just pointed out on the radio) its about skill set.   I think and am far from alone is the dude is big time dynamic and talented.

 

As for Cousins, my only "negative" is I don't give him a pass for his aggregate mediocre stats up to this point.  But as I said earlier in the thread, the past is the past, lets see what he can do now.  And am excited to see it.  I don't have a strong opinion positive or negative about Cousins.  To me the movie on Cousins is about to play, lets watch it and hope to enjoy.  Am just not into painting RG3 as the villain in Cousins' movie.   What Cousins does or doesn't do in my book has nothing to do with RG3.    I am a big RG3 fan but if Cousins is all that and a stud and better than RG3 and meets the wildest hopes that some people have -- on a scale of 0-10, I'd be at a 10.  I'd be ecstatic.  Lets watch the movie in my view before making grandiose conclusions.  

[Bubble Screen]

Cousins is better than Nick Foles, that's for sure.

Lol wut?

Pump the brakes, Dude.

[Koolblue13]

...This is an example of bashing...

when your unquestioned franchise QB, who still hasn't looked sharp in over a year, has only 7 games in going into his third season, where he looked great and slated for the bench yet again. I think it becomes fair to start critizing him, without it being bashing.

[skins island connection]

You are making my point.  Cousins good-RG3 bad -- metrics aren't about aggregate numbers but lets pick one game.   Personally, I think RG3 played great in 2012, so so in 2013, ok in the first game, great in a small sample in the 2nd.  But for me really the deal about RG3 (as John Keim ironically just pointed out on the radio) its about skill set.   I think and am far from alone is the dude is big time dynamic and talented.

 

As for Cousins, my only "negative" is I don't give him a pass for his aggregate mediocre stats up to this point.  But as I said earlier in the thread, the past is the past, lets see what he can do now.  And am excited to see it.  I don't have a strong opinion positive or negative about Cousins.  To me the movie on Cousins is about to play, lets watch it and hope to enjoy.  Am just not into painting RG3 as the villain in Cousins' movie.   What Cousins does or doesn't do in my book has nothing to do with RG3.    I am a big RG3 fan but if Cousins is all that and a stud and better than RG3 and meets the wildest hopes that some people have -- on a scale of 0-10, I'd be at a 10.  I'd be ecstatic.  Lets watch the movie in my view before making grandiose conclusions.  

 

Really, it would be unfair to actually 'compare' the 2; they have a different style of play. One uses mobility to make plays, the other utilizes the pocket better. At least thats my POV.

The idea that neither of them is any good is just wrong; they both have attributes which benefit them, and frankly i'm glad they're both here; this is the perfect example of the value of a back-up QB, whoever it may be in the future, i'm not gonna make any judgement until both of them are healthy, and have played a good amount of time behind center in meaningful game situations.

 

Its only fair to both of them, the hell with what our stats, metrics, and eyeball tests prove.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

On passes that travel more than 20 yards in the air:

RG3 amazing deep ball: 27/87, 31%, 976 yards, 11 ypa, 11 TD, 3 INT

Cousins noodle arm: 6/16, 38%, 295 yards, 18 ypa, 4 TD, 1 INT

On passes that travel 40+ yards in the air:

RG3 amazing deep ball: 6/26, 23%, 332 yards, 13 ypa, 6 TD, 0 INT

Cousins noodle arm: 1/2, 50%, 62 yards, 31 ypa, 0 TD, 0 INT (Morris fumbled on the very next play, Cousins takes blame for loss)

PM me with recommended tweaks to make RG3's stats look better, so that this can change from a RG3 bashing post to a neutral and objective post.

No tweaks needed. "Deep ball" isn't 20 yards in the air lol...and I think comparing their 40+ yard throws leans heavily towards RG3. Cousins has only thrown 2, so completion percentage, yards per attempt and TDs holds zero value.

For the record, I tend to compare pass attempts that travel 31+ yards in the air.

[Hooper]

From CBS Sportsline --

 

"Over the summer, ProFootballFocus.com compared the two quarterbacks and found that Griffin was among the league's best on short throws (5-10 yards) and on third downs, but struggled on intermediate throws (11-20 yards) and was near the bottom on deep balls (20-plus yards).

Cousins, meanwhile, was good on deep balls, struggled on short throws and when taking drops of 9 yards or more (he threw four of his seven interceptions in this situation)."

 

 

I think that's interesting... but also kinda meaningless. Last year was just an epic crapshow all-around. RG3 wasn't 100 percent and Kirk wasn't thrown in the best situation.

Like both our QBs. Think it's nuts people are expecting so much from Cousins -- THIS SUNDAY WILL BE ONLY THE FOURTH GAME HE'S STARTED.