The Rgiii Fumble - By The Rule Book .

[theTruthTeller]

If he dove headfirst and slid untouched to a first down, it would count as a first down.

If he dove headfirst and slid untouched to a touchdown, it would count as a touchdown.

 

As long as he is entitled to gain yards by the rules,  he can fumble too.

 

This is a routine call.  I can't believe people are even arguing it.

[Godfather151981]

If he dove headfirst and slid untouched to a first down, it would count as a first down.

If he dove headfirst and slid untouched to a touchdown, it would count as a touchdown.

 

As long as he is entitled to gain yards by the rules,  he can fumble too.

 

This is a routine call.  I can't believe people are even arguing it.

 

It matters how he slides. When you slide the play is over when you go into your slide. So if he slid into the endzone it might not be a TD. If he began his slid at the goal line it would in theory be a TD, so long as the ref got the spot right. In the same respect, if he flops into the endzone the play in theory would be over once the ball breaks the plain of the goal line. That's why I'm kind of saying that this is a bit nebulous. 

[bearrock]

So is it possible to "give yourself up" without sliding or does it always require a slide?  Rule seems to suggest that sliding is but one method of giving yourself up which provides some additional protection (i.e. - no more hits), thus meaning that there are other ways to give yourself up without sliding.  Is this not the case?

[stevenaa]

It was a boneheaded mistake. Something he didn't make last year.  sad

[SiCk_DiAbLo]

I think RG3 was thinking about Subway when he flopped...

[Momma There Goes That Man]

It matters how he slides. When you slide the play is over when you go into your slide. So if he slid into the endzone it might not be a TD. If he began his slid at the goal line it would in theory be a TD, so long as the ref got the spot right. In the same respect, if he flops into the endzone the play in theory would be over once the ball breaks the plain of the goal line. That's why I'm kind of saying that this is a bit nebulous. 

 

He could begin his dive at the 10 yard line and if he dives head first and ends in the endzone its a touchdown regardless of whether he is laying on his stomach with his elbows and knees touching the entire duration of his headfirst dive along the grass...as long as a defender doesn't touch him, its a score.

 

If he slides normally they usually end the play and spot the ball where their knee hits and the play is over whether touched or not.

 

Nothing nebulous about it but two very distinct situations 

[ZRagone]

 

Both. When the knee's down without the assistance of a defender it's left up to interpretation. It seemed to me that RGIII's intention was to end the play. But in any sport it's a dangerous thing to leave the intent of the player and thus the outcome of the play open to the discretion of the ref. As someone else pointed out, what if he just laid there on the ground (with the ball)? Would the play still have been live, even then? That's why I say this is opaque because it seems that different interpretations of "down by contact" can be applied.

 

Can you recall any specific play...other than the Cruz play which I believe the NFL later admitted was called incorrect (and even then, significantly different than simply a knee being down)...where it was "left up to interpretation" and ruled "down by contact"? Because I can't think of a single one I have ever seen.

You also seem to be horribly confused between "Down by contact" and "Giving yourself up".

Down by contact requires CONTACT

Giving yourself up requires you to be making "no effort to advance". A dive, by it's nature, is an effort to advance.

A slide, ALWAYS, ends at the location you start your slide. That's why it's "Giving yourself up". By initiating the slide, you're declaring yourself DOWN at the point the slide begins by the rules.

A dive, NEVER, ends at the location you start your dive. If you're touched before diving, then it ends where the ball is once your knee or forearm touches the ground. If you're not touched, then it ends either once you're touched OR once you make "no further effort to advance" and thus are "giving yourself up".

When one dives...the dive itself is an "effort to advance". Any sliding your body does once it hits the ground is an "effort to advance". Forward movement can't be "no further effort to advance" because you're actively advancing EXCEPT in the case of sliding.

So yes, if you just lie there after you slide THEN things go up to interpritation because it's up to the refs to decide if you laying there is you showing "no further effort to advance". But in terms of the dive, that absolutely shouldn't be up to interpretation. A Ref ruling a head first dive an instance of a player "giving themselves up" isn't "interpreting the rules", he's making an erronious call.

 

It matters how he slides. When you slide the play is over when you go into your slide. So if he slid into the endzone it might not be a TD. If he began his slid at the goal line it would in theory be a TD, so long as the ref got the spot right. In the same respect, if he flops into the endzone the play in theory would be over once the ball breaks the plain of the goal line. That's why I'm kind of saying that this is a bit nebulous.

 

Yes, it does matter how he slides. That's why the poster said "dives headfirst".

If you go down feet first and "slide", your play ALWAYS ends at the point where the slide began regardless of you being touched.

If you go down head first and "slide", your play only ends at the point where your knee/forearm touch the ground IF you were contacted with the defense. Otherwise, you continue to gain yards as you slide until a point that you're touched or you clearly cease making any effort to advance.

bearrock, on 23 Sept 2013 - 15:52, said:

So is it possible to "give yourself up" without sliding or does it always require a slide? Rule seems to suggest that sliding is but one method of giving yourself up which provides some additional protection (i.e. - no more hits), thus meaning that there are other ways to give yourself up without sliding. Is this not the case?

Yes.

You can declare yourself down by falling to the ground, or kneeling, in a way that you're making no effort to advance.

Sliding feet first is one way to do it, because per the rules when someone slides feet first then their "advancement" ends at the point of the slides beginning. Kneeling and staying knelt would be another because there's no forward movement. Theoritically, someone diving and just laying there for a few seconds without being touched or moving could also cause the play to be whistled dead due to giving oneself up, because they felt to the ground and then clearly make no effort to advance.

A dive qualfies as a means of "falling to the ground" but it doesn't qualify as a means of "making no effort to advance" because the action of diving in, and of itself, is an effort to advance because it doesn't have an "automatic down" trigger at the start of it like sliding feet first does.

[theTruthTeller]

It matters how he slides. When you slide the play is over when you go into your slide. So if he slid into the endzone it might not be a TD. If he began his slid at the goal line it would in theory be a TD, so long as the ref got the spot right. In the same respect, if he flops into the endzone the play in theory would be over once the ball breaks the plain of the goal line. That's why I'm kind of saying that this is a bit nebulous. 

I think I stated it pretty precisely.  If a player with the ball dives headfirst and slides, then he continues to gain yardage.  As long as a player is continuing to gain yardage, he can fumble the ball.  If an opposing player had slapped the ball out of his hands, then it would have been a dead ball as soon as the defensive player touched the ball, and therefore not a fumble.  But that's not what happened.  RG3 was sliding forward and the ball came out without any intervening circumstance that would cause the play to end (i.e., being touched by an opposing player, or coming to a complete stop with no attempt to advance the ball).  It was a fumble.

[Bacon]

He has things to work on, but at least we saw flashes of the real "RG3".

 

That's the important thing to take away from all this. Knock on wood, we have another decade with RG3. The important part is that he's getting back to a high level, and attempting plays like that (in failure or success) is a huge part of that. I loved the play. Shame that it didn't turn out well for us, but we suck anyway. 

[MumboSauce]

Should have taken a sack or thrown it away, it was a fumble, and Aldrick didn't make the catch he should have. That is all... I love this team, HTTR! not wavering.  It's getting better, just not there yet.  Things need to get cleaned up, traveling to Oakland. Need a win!

[skins2victory]

What about the false start called on RG3?? Im still confused on that one. It was a hard count and he raised his leg like every QB does on a hard count. I dont get it.....

[Dark Acre]

To me, it looked like he assumed that he was sliding and realized that he probably couldn't hold onto the ball so he let it go thinking GCCAF.  I say that because it looked as if, if he knew the rule, he could have knocked the ball to where one of his teammates could get it.

[Destino]

It matters how he slides. When you slide the play is over when you go into your slide. So if he slid into the endzone it might not be a TD. If he began his slid at the goal line it would in theory be a TD, so long as the ref got the spot right. In the same respect, if he flops into the endzone the play in theory would be over once the ball breaks the plain of the goal line. That's why I'm kind of saying that this is a bit nebulous.

There is nothing nebulous here. If he slides FEET FIRST the play is over where he starts his slide. If he slides HEAD FIRST the play is live until he is touched. He can slide head first into the endzone and score even if he hits the ground well short of the goal line so long as he is untouched. He can fall down and roll into the endzone as long as he's untouched. If he falls down and remains still the refs might blow the whistle as he is making no attempt to advance the ball and has essentially surrendered.

In this case he slid head first and the ball immediately popped out before his forward movement had stopped. Its a clear fumble and a dumb mistake on his part.

[U C S D SkinsFan]

Hurts to agree with most, it was a fumble...bad play by RG3, but mistakes happen.  I can see improvement, little by little, and that's the only positive I'm taking out of this season so far.  At this point, the team doesn't look like a playoff caliber team (mainly b/c of the defensive woes) so I just hope RG3 can stay healthy for 16 games and continue to get better each week.  This could be a good learning year for him as a pocket passer.  It's time to just enjoy the remaining games for whatever they are and groom our QB for the next 10 years.  

[Burgold]

I'm probably with the majority here.  It's a fumble.  Called it that way when the ball first came out, kept my opinion during the replays and haven't heard anything to change my mind since.

 

Now, the Robinson catch I think is introversial because I never see a moment where his hand disconnects from the ball.  I don't think there is proof the ball got away from him and so the call on the field should stand.

 

On the fumble though, he hits the ground the ball pops out.  I'm sure his intent was to stay down, but that never happened.  It was a lousy mistake and I'm sure he's frustrated with it, but I don't think even Griffin would argue that wasn't a fumble.

[Leonard Washington]

So if RGIII didn't fumble, the Lions could have piled on him?  I'm sure that would have been called unnecessary roughness.

 

btw I think it was a fumble, but it was clearly up to the ref's interpretation.

[pointyfootball]

Here's my take on that play:

1) Griffin is not used to being caught from behind and didn't know how to end the run cleanly. 

2) Sliding when you are getting ready to get caught from behind is a scary proposition, especially with repaired knee.  If he had started his slide and then got folded from behind, it wouldn't have been pretty. 

[ZRagone]

skins2victory, on 24 Sept 2013 - 02:06, said:

What about the false start called on RG3?? Im still confused on that one. It was a hard count and he raised his leg like every QB does on a hard count. I dont get it.....

I believe in the past few years a rule got put in regarding false starts. If you "simulate a snap" with demonstrative motion when making your hard count then it can be called on the QB. I think Griffin had it called on him once last year as well actually. It's been on the books for a while, but started to be enforced more in 2012. Here's an article talking about Matt Ryan getting flagged for it last year.

I think the thing that got him was the way he moved his hips as he was making the count in that time. That was more of a "judgement" call in my mind than the Fumble was to be honest.