Bozo the kKklown Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 11 hours ago, Spaceman Spiff said: What are you talking about? The NBA PPG averages were over 100 every year from 1980-1995. Even the '88-'89 Pistons, one of the pre-eminent defensive teams of the era scored 106 PPG which was 16th in the league. Even LeBron said the NBA is watered down: https://newsone.com/932385/lebron-james-says-league-is-watered-down-needs-downsizing/ No shade, but didn't you say you were a casual NBA watcher? This is the most talent filled NBA we have seen in some time. Watered down was the 1995-96 season when the Grizzlies and Raptors entered the NBA making it 6 expansion teams in 8 years. The Cavs and Warriors are just super teams, but the league is very strong. 13 hours ago, Spaceman Spiff said: Jordan didn't play in a watered down NBA, for starters. 2016 Golden State doesn't look nearly that good with the rules that Jordan dealt with back in the day. IMO, the heart of the issue here isn't necessarily the matchup of talents and abilities, but the rules that each team had to play with. And if you're including the rules that Jordan's teams had to abide by, it's not even a contest. Even if you were to let Jordan's Bulls teams play with 2016 NBA rules, it'd still be close. But back then, Bulls vs. Knicks in the Eastern Conference Finals was practically a streetfight. Same with Pistons vs. Bulls before Jordan could get to the Finals. John Starks might not have been a truly great basketball player but he'd put Steph Curry in the front row if given the chance and it wouldn't be a technical. This pre-dates Jordan, but still: NOT A TECHNICAL FOUL. No fines or suspensions. That doesn't happen in the NBA today. If someone did that to softer-than-puppy-**** Steph that player would have been immediately ejected, fined and suspended. You'd have Stephen A Smith not shutting the **** up about it for three days straight on ESPN. Back then, this was business as usual. More proof, here's Complex's top NBA Playoff Brawls: http://www.complex.com/sports/2017/04/the-greatest-brawls-in-nba-playoffs-history/brawl-10 There's only one in there from the 2000s. Look at #14 with the Bulls and Knicks, the Warriors never had to deal with anything that physical, with Starks using his head as a battering ram on Scottie Pippen's chest or a giant brute like Patrick Ewing throwing elbows. It was a wildly different era. Here's John Stockton tackling David Robinson: If you're going to make a lazy argument about Jordan never having to play a team like 2016 Golden State, you should at least take the time to examine the difference in the rules and how the game was played between eras. You say Jordan never had to play a team like 2016 Golden State....I say 2016 Golden State didn't have to survive in much more physical league. This was my problem with people who don't understand defensive basketball as much as they think. A forearm to the rib or a clothesline is not good defens. The Warriors switching on every screen but never losing a defender is good defense. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhead36 Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 This year's playoffs/probable Finals just illustrates the problem with basketball as a sport in general. It's the one sport where the top individuals matter more than any other sport and having that top 2 or 3 elite individual talent means you're a lock to contend. If you're not one of those teams you have NO chance. No other league has that issue. It is what it is. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 Other than the fact that it damaged his personal legacy, this is what most disappointed me about Kevin Durant picking Golden State. It broke the league's competitive balance and made the season completely predictable from the beginning. The only moment it ever got interesting is when he got hurt, but now he's back and looks like he's recovered and all the entertainment is gone again. The owners have to act in order to prevent this from ever happening again. The players will not police themselves and stop forming super teams and make individual sacrifices for the good of the league as a whole. They just want to get in, make their money, and get rings if they can. They have zero individual incentive to promote the health of the league. The owners have to make it impossible for them to form super teams by moving to a model that forces parity. They have to do away with max contracts and institute a hard cap. What you would end up with is a league of 8 or 9 Houstons and San Antonios--one or two star teams that are built through draft picks, successful reclamations, and shrewd buy-low trades and signings. It would be a system where no team would realistically be able to horde multiple top ten players. And thus a system where almost a third of the league would have a real shot at a championship every season and you wouldn't get whole decades dominated by two or three dynastic teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DM72 Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 54 minutes ago, Warhead36 said: This year's playoffs/probable Finals just illustrates the problem with basketball as a sport in general. It's the one sport where the top individuals matter more than any other sport and having that top 2 or 3 elite individual talent means you're a lock to contend. If you're not one of those teams you have NO chance. No other league has that issue. It is what it is. That's why I had absolutely no problem with Philly tanking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DM72 Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 15 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: And thus a system where almost a third of the league would have a real shot at a championship every season and you wouldn't get whole decades dominated by two or three dynastic teams. In a way, that's always been an issue for the NBA. 80's, 90's and the new millennium all had dynasties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrypticVillain Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 I always felt like the NBA has four too many teams. But it's not like they're going to get rid of four franchises. The only other thing is to have a hard salary cap. And Eliminate the luxury tax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, RonArtest15 said: Should have just skipped the formality from the jump and just had the Warriors/Cavs play a best of 31 series. Been laughing over this comment all day. I would love to see that. Edited May 21, 2017 by Momma There Goes That Man 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrypticVillain Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 10 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said: Been laughing over this comment all day. I would love to see that. That actually sounds good though. Imagine being up 5 games and the other team comes back? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sisko Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 18 hours ago, Spaceman Spiff said: Jordan didn't play in a watered down NBA, for starters. 2016 Golden State doesn't look nearly that good with the rules that Jordan dealt with back in the day. IMO, the heart of the issue here isn't necessarily the matchup of talents and abilities, but the rules that each team had to play with. And if you're including the rules that Jordan's teams had to abide by, it's not even a contest. Even if you were to let Jordan's Bulls teams play with 2016 NBA rules, it'd still be close. But back then, Bulls vs. Knicks in the Eastern Conference Finals was practically a streetfight. Same with Pistons vs. Bulls before Jordan could get to the Finals. John Starks might not have been a truly great basketball player but he'd put Steph Curry in the front row if given the chance and it wouldn't be a technical. This pre-dates Jordan, but still: NOT A TECHNICAL FOUL. No fines or suspensions. That doesn't happen in the NBA today. If someone did that to softer-than-puppy-**** Steph that player would have been immediately ejected, fined and suspended. You'd have Stephen A Smith not shutting the **** up about it for three days straight on ESPN. Back then, this was business as usual. Man that brings back memories. I grew up loving the Lakers (yes, Les Boulez too) and to this day Jabbar is still my favorite player. I so sucked at basketball when I was a kid but I spent literally hours on an empty court at my Jr. high school practicing and even perfecting the "sky" hook. I use the quotes because you can't really call it a sky hook if you're of barely average height. Amazingly enough, it actually allowed me to be competitive with the other kids, my best friend most importantly. FWIW, the Kobe/Shaq Lakers broke me of that habit. I grew to dislike them after that. I still hate the Celtics though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, DM72 said: In a way, that's always been an issue for the NBA. 80's, 90's and the new millennium all had dynasties. It's been the league's problem since it started. the worst decade in the NBA was the 70s, where there was the most parity. Edited May 21, 2017 by BenningRoadSkin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 4 hours ago, BenningRoadSkin said: No shade, but didn't you say you were a casual NBA watcher? This is the most talent filled NBA we have seen in some time. Watered down was the 1995-96 season when the Grizzlies and Raptors entered the NBA making it 6 expansion teams in 8 years. The Cavs and Warriors are just super teams, but the league is very strong. This was my problem with people who don't understand defensive basketball as much as they think. A forearm to the rib or a clothesline is not good defens. The Warriors switching on every screen but never losing a defender is good defense. True, I don't watch the NBA like I used to. Used to be a rabid fan, not so much anymore. Still watch about half the Wizards games, most of the playoffs and usually whatever random games are on ESPN. In comparison to how I follow MLB and NFL, it's definitely 3rd. A forearm or a clothesline isn't good defense, but the point was you could play a more physical brand of defense back in the day and it was a harder game. Can't even hand check now. 15 hours ago, Mr. Sinister said: What does that have to do with anything I posted? Because you made it sound like the NBA back then was a slow, plodding game. It wasn't. The 80s and into the mid 90s was a freewheeling offensive game with some of the highest scoring in league history. 10 hours ago, Destino said: If the league was watered down he wouldn't have needed to create two super teams, nor would he have lost in the finals as often as he won. The league feels extremely non-competitive this season because what Golden State did. Now we've got Lebron's Super Friends against Curry's Superer Friends, and NBA season is a joke. They'd better put on a show in the finals or all their talent stacking cheesiness amounted to, for fans, is an awful post season. The NBA itself is far more talented now than it was then if you look down the rosters to the role players and reserves. The talent pools feeding the NBA have never been bigger. Hey, he said it was watered down himself, I'll take LeBron's word for it. Less teams = less players = deeper rosters. Sure the talent pools are bigger but by my count only 13 out of 105 players named to any of the 3 yearly All NBA Teams have been foreign born going back to the '10-'11 season and only one foreign born player has made the 1st team across that time frame. Only two foreign born players made the All Star game this year, one starter. If you want to bring role players and reserves into the conversation, fine. But a scrub from Yugoslavia has about as much impact as a scrub from NY. I remember how much of an impact Jan Vesely made. At the end of the day, no one is changing anyone's mind here. 2 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said: It's been the league's problem since it started. the worst decade in the NBA was the 70s, where there was the most parity. And a lot of cocaine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 3 hours ago, CrypticVillain said: That actually sounds good though. Imagine being up 5 games and the other team comes back? There would be so much strategy as the series wears on and fatigue or injuries set in or teams start to know each other inside and out. Somebody could left get injured for 2 weeks and still come back and impact the series lol. It could be amazing 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 2 hours ago, BenningRoadSkin said: the worst decade in the NBA was the 70s, where there was the most parity. What was so bad about the 70's? Diversity of champions. Interesting group of All Timers. Good teams in almost all of the major markets. Appealing style of play. The worst decade of the NBA for me is easily the aughts. The 80's must have been boring as hell too unless you were a fan of the 76ers, Celtics, or Lakers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 2 hours ago, Spaceman Spiff said: Because you made it sound like the NBA back then was a slow, plodding game. It wasn't. The 80s and into the mid 90s was a freewheeling offensive game with some of the highest scoring in league history. I'm no longer the type to spend multiple pages arguing about something (unless it's a real world issue). So this will be my last reply. No, I didn't make it sound like the NBA then was anything but what it was. Less athletic, less strategic, less talented (due to the influx of expansion teams, among other reasons already listed) Your Street Fighter videos essentially made that point for me. That's what people remember. There was nothing freewheeling about it. Watching the Nuggets, the Lakers, the Don Nelson Warriors, or the Magic, or some other team does not make the entire league freewheeling. It was primarily an inside out out, inside scoring game, dominated by slower, less athletic bigs, And even then, that doesn't necessarily mean that it will affect ppg numbers in the way you think. It can be very subjective. Those are higher percentage points. It doesn't necessarily make that team the Harlem Globetrotters. High scoring did not just appear in the Magic/Bird/Jordan era. Hell, the '72 Atlanta Hawks averaged 112 pts a game, and that wasn't even the best in the league. Anyway, I'm done talking about this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 4 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said: What was so bad about the 70's? Diversity of champions. Interesting group of All Timers. Good teams in almost all of the major markets. Appealing style of play It was the decade that lead to tape delayed finals. They had a drug problem, the ABA, and white middle America dealing with a lot of black players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Do Itch Big Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 2 point game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 Cavs are just playing with Boston. Put Lebron back in and end this already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 Damn Celtics showing something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 Gotta respect the effort here. And LeBron finally Having a bad game has helped Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 Time for LeBron to step up and make people forget about a forgettable 2nd half. 3 points? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 Ivan Drago's son with a big 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Do Itch Big Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 Game ahahaha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 This kinda thing used to happen to Jordan all the time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DM72 Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 Who needs Isiah Thomas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Do Itch Big Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 Looking like the Wizards out there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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