Spaceman Spiff Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 17 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said: Based on? You don’t make a statement like this without proving it. Curry leads one of the greatest offenses of all time and has for five years. The offense was arguably better before Durant and they just had the two shooters. The offense has been elite without Durant. Was Jordan forcing teams to give him attention off the ball? We see that all the time with Curry. I don't think Jordan would have had much of a problem figuring out a zone defense. And I'm pretty sure coaches did everything they could to stop Jordan back then, including trying to deny him the ball. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hersh Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 40 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said: Based on? You don’t make a statement like this without proving it. Curry leads one of the greatest offenses of all time and has for five years. The offense was arguably better before Durant and they just had the two shooters. The offense has been elite without Durant. Was Jordan forcing teams to give him attention off the ball? We see that all the time with Curry. You are the one claiming that Curry might have a greater impact offensively than Jordan without actually proving it. All you did was immediately dismiss that the different eras different defenses and rules. Maybe you don’t recall Jordan facing traps and doubles. Jordan had a much easier time passing over top and would get to the basket or hit mid range jumpers all game long. You appear to be vastly underrating Jordan’s handle and his ability to score against or pass out of doubles. I’m not sure why. You also dismiss the impact of the three point line and the way the game has changed. If you want to really dig in on this position you seem to be taking, that’s fine. It’s wrong but all opinions are welcome. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hersh Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 40 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said: I don't think Jordan would have had much of a problem figuring out a zone defense. And I'm pretty sure coaches did everything they could to stop Jordan back then, including trying to deny him the ball. Pretty much any video on Jordan shows how easy he handled doubles on pick n rolls and in the post and how he got to the basket or found open shooters/cutters. The three point shooting coupled with the way the game has changed defensively makes some people forget what a dominant offensive force Jordan was 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 3 minutes ago, Hersh said: You are the one claiming that Curry might have a greater impact offensively than Jordan without actually proving it. All you did was immediately dismiss that the different eras different defenses and rules. Maybe you don’t recall Jordan facing traps and doubles. Jordan had a much easier time passing over top and would get to the basket or hit mid range jumpers all game long. You appear to be vastly underrating Jordan’s handle and his ability to score against or pass out of doubles. I’m not sure why. You also dismiss the impact of the three point line and the way the game has changed. If you want to really dig in on this position you seem to be taking, that’s fine. It’s wrong but all opinions are welcome. I think the more accurate assessment of Steph would be that he changed the game. And I think that's pretty much the highest compliment that you could pay anyone. The dude single handedly ushered in a new era of basketball and changed perceptions of what could be. Steph and Jordan are two different players from different eras, both dominant in their own ways, both changed the game. That should be good enough. I still think Jordan would kill Steph. Jordan was a ****ing killer. When you make your Hall of Fame speech one big **** you call out to everyone who ever doubted you, you're on some next level ****. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dont Taze Me Bro Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 31 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said: I don't think Jordan would have had much of a problem figuring out a zone defense. And I'm pretty sure coaches did everything they could to stop Jordan back then, including trying to deny him the ball. They tried and eventually failed because he was/is the GOAT. The Pistons implemented the Jordan Rules and it worked for three years straight in the playoffs. Until it didn't with the triangle offense. Knicks tried a version of it and it failed them every year in the playoffs. The reason it worked so well for the Pistons was due to the defensive rules back then and the fact that they basically could hammer players and it was just a hard foul. If they fouled players like that now, it would be flagrant 1 and 2s and ejections. They doubled down on him as soon as he touched the ball to force him to give it off to another player. If he got by them, they were told to nail him, make contact. They tried to prevent him from even getting into the paint, which was Laimbeer and Rodman's job. Game has changed so much since the 80s-90s. Not saying Curry couldn't play back then and be successful. Just like I think it's silly to think that MJ wouldn't be able to handle a zone defense in today's game or still be the ****ing man. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 1 minute ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said: They tried and eventually failed because he was/is the GOAT. The Pistons implemented the Jordan Rules and it worked for three years straight in the playoffs. Until it didn't with the triangle offense. Knicks tried a version of it and it failed them every year in the playoffs. The reason it worked so well for the Pistons was due to the defensive rules back then and the fact that they basically could hammer players and it was just a hard foul. If they fouled players like that now, it would be flagrant 1 and 2s and ejections. They doubled down on him as soon as he touched the ball to force him to give it off to another player. If he got by them, they were told to nail him, make contact. They tried to prevent him from even getting into the paint, which was Laimbeer and Rodman's job. Game has changed so much since the 80s-90s. Not saying Curry couldn't play back then and be successful. Just like I think it's silly to think that MJ wouldn't be able to handle a zone defense in today's game or still be the ****ing man. ZOMFG!!! You watched basketball in the 90s!!! Hand checks!!! BLARRRRRGGGHHHH GTFO with that!!! Not a flagrant foul. Certainly would be today, maybe even an ejection. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 (edited) 14 hours ago, TryTheBeal! said: Kobe had a nice midrange. And it lives on every time I need to throw away a balled up piece of paper Edited June 4, 2019 by Momma There Goes That Man 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 (edited) Retro 1970's Klay looks like today's Klay. 😂 You can see them all on Bardown's website or here --> https://www.sfgate.com/warriors/article/Warriors-Raptors-throwback-makeovers-NBA-Finals-19-13927177.php Edited June 4, 2019 by The Evil Genius 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 1 hour ago, Spaceman Spiff said: I don't think Jordan would have had much of a problem figuring out a zone defense. And I'm pretty sure coaches did everything they could to stop Jordan back then, including trying to deny him the ball. Im not saying Jordan wouldn’t have been great in a zone era. My point is defense is harder now going up against two-three guys with a crowded paint versus having to just get by one guy and having an open lane. Zone defense has made it harder to be a dominant 1v1 player. Jordan is on everything of the best players ever, so yes he would have figured it out. But we don’t play an “if” game, we play the “this is what is/has” happened fame. Curry’s off the ball movement and play helps his teammates offensively. He creates opportunities with his movement. It’s not the same with Jordan who often lead the NBA in usage rate because he dominated the ball. 52 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said: ZOMFG!!! You watched basketball in the 90s!!! Hand checks!!! BLARRRRRGGGHHHH GTFO with that!!! Not a flagrant foul. Certainly would be today, maybe even an ejection. This is why it’s impossible to have conversations on this topic. “I remember this one play that shows the game was intense.” Teams made the playoffs that era 20 games under .500. Most of the league averaged over 100 points a game. Defenses wasn’t intense and games weren’t that physical. Refs just didn’t call hard fouls. In the 90s, teams had no idea how to space the court and team defense wasn’t really a concept. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhead36 Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 Curry isn't the physiclally dominant presence that some of the other GOAT candidates are, but his skill set is so unique that the Warriors were able to build the modern era dynasty around him. Yes he's had good players around him, but I also think he makes those guys a lot better. What exactly did Iggy and Stevenson do in the league before joining Curry? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 1 hour ago, Hersh said: You are the one claiming that Curry might have a greater impact offensively than Jordan without actually proving it. All you did was immediately dismiss that the different eras different defenses and rules. Maybe you don’t recall Jordan facing traps and doubles. Jordan had a much easier time passing over top and would get to the basket or hit mid range jumpers all game long. You appear to be vastly underrating Jordan’s handle and his ability to score against or pass out of doubles. I’m not sure why. You also dismiss the impact of the three point line and the way the game has changed. If you want to really dig in on this position you seem to be taking, that’s fine. It’s wrong but all opinions are welcome. I didn’t disregard anything about Jordan. I literally said Jordan is the best 1v1 player ever. I didn’t say Curry was better offensively that Jordan. I said Curry has greater impact on offense than Jordan. That’s a completely different statement. Jordan wasn’t killing teams off the ball. Jordan didn’t shoot 40% from 35-feet. These are things that changes the defense. Point to moments when Jordan was trapped as soon as he crossed the half court line. It never happened because why? Jordan wasn’t a three-point threat. Jordan didn’t play with an elite perimeter scorer. Curry plays with one of the best ever, and teams are focused on stopping Curry and not Durant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 28 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said: Im not saying Jordan wouldn’t have been great in a zone era. My point is defense is harder now going up against two-three guys with a crowded paint versus having to just get by one guy and having an open lane. Zone defense has made it harder to be a dominant 1v1 player. Jordan is on everything of the best players ever, so yes he would have figured it out. But we don’t play an “if” game, we play the “this is what is/has” happened fame. Curry’s off the ball movement and play helps his teammates offensively. He creates opportunities with his movement. It’s not the same with Jordan who often lead the NBA in usage rate because he dominated the ball. I don't believe defense is harder now. The concept of defense might be different, doesn't necessarily make it harder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 1 minute ago, Spaceman Spiff said: I don't believe defense is harder now. The concept of defense might be different, doesn't necessarily make it harder. It’s harder to go past three players than just one. That’s what perimeter players face now. It really was just one player having to defend back then, and the good offensive players used the leverage of a hand check to their advantage. Team defending wasn’t a concept back in those days. Imagine Jason Kidd playing in today’s nba with no jumpshot. Defending is harder now than back then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 4 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said: It’s harder to go past three players than just one. That’s what perimeter players face now. It really was just one player having to defend back then, and the good offensive players used the leverage of a hand check to their advantage. Team defending wasn’t a concept back in those days. Imagine Jason Kidd playing in today’s nba with no jumpshot. Defending is harder now than back then. Well, I know there's no telling you different.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hersh Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 31 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said: I didn’t disregard anything about Jordan. I literally said Jordan is the best 1v1 player ever. I didn’t say Curry was better offensively that Jordan. I said Curry has greater impact on offense than Jordan. That’s a completely different statement. Jordan wasn’t killing teams off the ball. Jordan didn’t shoot 40% from 35-feet. These are things that changes the defense. Point to moments when Jordan was trapped as soon as he crossed the half court line. It never happened because why? Jordan wasn’t a three-point threat. Jordan didn’t play with an elite perimeter scorer. Curry plays with one of the best ever, and teams are focused on stopping Curry and not Durant. Why would Jordan need to run around like Curry off the ball when he can get the ball in the post and dominate there. This idea that Jordan wasn't trapped when he crossed half court is maybe the dumbest argument you can make because you completely ignore the history of the game. Jordan didn't grow up with a three point line. He wasn't going to stand 35 feet away jacking up threes when he dominated in other ways cause that's how the game was played back then. BTW, congrats also on pointing out why Jordan was more ball dominant, CAUSE HE DIDN'T PLAY WITH AN ELITE PERIMETER SCORER. It's like you never watched Jordan play or you are simply ignoring the amount of double teams Jordan saw regularly. 6 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said: Well, I know there's no telling you different.... It really is pointless. To make a claim that there was no team defending back then...LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hersh Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 53 minutes ago, Warhead36 said: Curry isn't the physiclally dominant presence that some of the other GOAT candidates are, but his skill set is so unique that the Warriors were able to build the modern era dynasty around him. Yes he's had good players around him, but I also think he makes those guys a lot better. What exactly did Iggy and Stevenson do in the league before joining Curry? This isn't in dispute. It's the claim that Curry is more impactful on the offensive end than Jordan. I mean, why Jordan didn't practice 35 ft three pointers growing up is just a mystery I can't wrap my head around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 16 minutes ago, Hersh said: It really is pointless. To make a claim that there was no team defending back then...LOL Well the idea that a perimeter player has to account for three defenders every time they drive the lane is absurd. It ignores any concept of help side defense that was played before the NBA allowed zones. Even if a perimeter player drives the lane and finds three defenders there waiting for him he can still find the open man or whatever mismatch has been created. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said: Well, I know there's no telling you different.... Likewise but please, share an image of a hard foul to show me that defending was epic back then. 34 minutes ago, Hersh said: Why would Jordan need to run around like Curry off the ball when he can get the ball in the post and dominate there. Of course. Ain’t nothing wrong with that. Find where I said something was. I never said Curry was a better offensive player than Jordan. Curry’s off the ball play helps the Warriors offense and is a form of playmaking. 34 minutes ago, Hersh said: This idea that Jordan wasn't trapped when he crossed half court is maybe the dumbest argument you can make because you completely ignore the history of the game. Jordan didn't grow up with a three point line. He wasn't going to stand 35 feet away jacking up threes when he dominated in other ways cause that's how the game was played back then. BTW, congrats also on pointing out why Jordan was more ball dominant, CAUSE HE DIDN'T PLAY WITH AN ELITE PERIMETER SCORER. It's like you never watched Jordan play or you are simply ignoring the amount of double teams Jordan saw regularly. So it’s stupid that teams are so scared of a player that they trap him as soon as he crosses the three point line? This doesn’t even make sense lol. Imagine saying it’s not a big deal that teams are scared of you that they trap you 40 feet away from the basket lol. And yea, Jordan didn’t grow up with a three-point line, that’s my point. That’s why I am not playing the hypothetical game. The three-point shot shows how impactful Curry is. And lastly, Curry wasn’t leading the league in usage even during his MVP seasons when he was the only dominant perimeter scorer on the team. That’s entirely the point. And I never said Jordan didn’t get doubled, I asked you to cite an example of him getting doubled and tripled off the ball or trapped 40 feet away from the basket. I watched Gary Payton, Byron Russell, John Starks, etc 1v1 defend him. Shoot, the suns out Kevin Johnson on Jordan and let him go bananas while stymieing everyone else. Edited June 4, 2019 by BenningRoadSkin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 Long video but this is what I’m getting at with regards to zone defending vs iso-era. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 1 minute ago, BenningRoadSkin said: Likewise but please, share an image of a hard foul to show me that defending was epic back then. I didn't say defending was epic back then, it's just different now. I don't think it's particularly harder, I just think it's different. Not worse, not better, just different. So back then you could have real hard ass fouls that were part of the game like the one I posted earlier: That's not "epic" well thought out defense. Thats brute, vicious strength. AND THAT WAS JUST A FOUL. Today, that's a flagrant. So if you replace hard fouls and man defense with an effort to have not as much contact and zone defenses, did defense all of a sudden get harder? I don't necessarily think so. I think it just got different. Possibly a zone makes it harder to get inside to the lane for a defender but he's probably NOT going to get punished the way he would have back in the day. Sports fans forever want to believe that what they're currently watching is the best **** ever for some reason, I don't get it. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said: I didn't say defending was epic back then, it's just different now. I don't think it's particularly harder, I just think it's different. Not worse, not better, just different. So back then you could have real hard ass fouls that were part of the game like the one I posted earlier: The video of a hard foul isn't defending. I just posted a video that shows the difference between the pre-zone/illegal defense era and what we see today. There is a reason why Jordan, Iverson, Kobe, etc were upset at the implementation of it. I've even seen Durant comment on wanting to see hand checking and no zone again too. Jordan would kill in this era if we dropped him into today's game, but Curry will always have greater impact because of his three-point range and off the ball movement. That shooting and a couple of inches and pounds is the difference between Curry and someone like Dame Lillard. Lillard can shoot from anywhere but doesn't move much off the ball. Thats why I had to shut down the "just like any other great shooter" line that Steve tried to pull. 28 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said: So if you replace hard fouls and man defense with an effort to have not as much contact and zone defenses, did defense all of a sudden get harder? I don't necessarily think so. I think it just got different. Possibly a zone makes it harder to get inside to the lane for a defender but he's probably NOT going to get punished the way he would have back in the day. Players would prefer the contact and free throw shots than not even taking a shot because there is no path to the rim. And I will say it again, these instances were not as common as you want to believe. Watch Jordan put 63 points on Boston. How often did McHale put Jordan on the ground? Even the Pistons and their "Jordan rules" he was still averaging 35-40 a game against them in the playoffs. The defense was let Jordan get angry and continue to attack us and not share the ball. Edited June 4, 2019 by BenningRoadSkin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 14 hours ago, Destino said: When was Durant on a scrub team? OKC was loaded with talent. Lebron won his titles on damn good, hand picked, teams. We saw him on a scrub team this season, how did that work out for him? Giannis is not on a scrub team either. He’s just not on a championship team, which is why he’s at home while the Raptors are in the finals. Theres no getting around that you need the talent to win in the post season, but I don’t think the warriors needed Durant to win another title. He didn’t take a mediocre team and make them great. He just added more to an already great team. OKC was loaded with talent in 2012, but they were super green and got whupped by a peak Miami team. Then they dealt Harden and that talent advantage took a major hit. Then in the next postseason Westbrook got hurt on a cheap shot from Patrick Beverly in the first round and they got taken apart by a better Memphis team. The next postseason Westbrook and Ibaka both got hurt and they lost to that championship Spurs team. Then the next season Durant got hurt and missed most of the year. It wasn't until the 2015 season that they made it into the postseason again at close to full strength, and they ended up losing to an even more loaded Warriors team in 7. Then that summer Durant goes to Golden State and that's all she wrote. OKC was loaded on paper, but they really only got one full strength postseason run and it was well before Harden had emerged as a dominant player. After that, it was a two All-Star construction and they only made it into the postseason with both healthy one more time. We also saw LeBron play on scrub Miami and Cleveland teams in 2014, 2015, and 2018. In 2017 they also faced a major talent disadvantage against that Warriors team. 2011 was the only Finals series he lost where he should have won. I love that Milwaukee team and think they have a bright future. But you and I both know that Bledsoe and Middleton would come off the bench for Golden State and probably be their 7th and 8th guys. I think Durant took a great Warriors team and made them invincible. The way the Warriors brass pitched him in 2016 felt realistic: "we might get another title, and you might get one in OKC, but if you come to Golden State, we will get several more." Everyone involved knew what they were accomplishing by adding Durant. They went from probably winning two rings in this period to probably winning four in five years. Essentially what we're arguing about is which type of gravity is more valuable--off-ball gravity or on-ball gravity. My argument is that, if the measure of gravity is the same (both players are elite in their respective category), then on-ball gravity is more valuable than off-ball gravity because: 1 - It more directly leads to points scored 2 - It is physically harder to defend a dominant on-ball player than dominant off-ball player 3 - You can build a winner around a dominant on-ball player with much lesser talent This makes dominant on-ball gravity much more reliable and consistently impactful. And I think that's supported by the fact that the 2015 Warriors are the only title team I can think of going back for a while whose best player was primarily a dominant off-ball player on offense. There is another tangential value to dominant on-ball gravity too. Most of the time, on-ball dominance comes from having dominant physical attributes, and that often translates to the defensive end. Not always, as we see with Harden. But it usually does, and it gives those kinds of players even more value over ones like Curry. I bet if you had a draft with every player in the NBA available, Curry would get picked no higher than 5th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooked Crack Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 3 hours ago, The Evil Genius said: Durant sliding in their DMs to complain as we speak. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 I really hate y'all. Can't go a single year in the Finals without some dumb Jordan argument being resurrected Don't let sticks see this convo. 1 minute ago, Cooked Crack said: Durant sliding in their DMs to complain as we speak. They changed Curry's hair color. He's a little gingery 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooked Crack Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 This supposed to be Serge Ibaka or Meek Mill? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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