Predicto Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Livingston is an average back up PG who prolonged his NBA career after many stops by finding his way onto a dominant team. Same for Barbosa except he's a third string PG at this point. And even thought Predicto keeps using Bill Wennington and Luc Longley as an indictement of both that Bulls team and the state of the NBA in general in the mid 90's, Andrew Bogut is a scrub who couldn't play anywhere near as big a role for any other team. He's Golden State's Wennington/Longley and provides nothing on offense that couldn't also be provided by a large barrel placed at the elbow. Whaaaa? Livingston is a very good player who is finally fully back from the most gruesome knee injury anyone has ever seen. Bogut is 50 times the player that Wennington and Longley were, because he is a dominant defensive force. He is consistently at the top of the NBA in rim protection, defensive real plus-minus and every advanced defensive metric. Wennington and Longley were typical 90s frankensteins, no different than Uwe Blab or Jon Koncak or Kwame Brown or Jim McElvaine or Greg Kite or Duane Causewell or any of the other dozens of terrible big men stiffs that populated the NBA during the 90s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taco Bell Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 (edited) http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2630754-how-much-better-would-peak-michael-jordan-have-made-your-team-this-season/page/32 This is your typical BR clickbait article, but this one is more fun than most given the current conversation. I think I have the link set at the #1 team, so you don't need to click 30 pages to get to the top ones (thanks BR). Sorry the link gets truncated so you don't see the title- it's about adding peak Jordan to every team this year and seeing how they rank with that in mind Edited April 13, 2016 by Taco Bell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justice98 Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Getting handed starting spots on bottom of the barrel teams that are rebuilding. Teams in the 90s that weren't rebuilding had bums all over their rosters, including starters. The Bulls had three great players and two mediocrities in their starting lineup. You're selling them way short. But having said that, 3 great players and 2 mediocre ones is just about every team that wins a championship now. Teams arent winning with 5 all-stars in the starting lineup. GSW starts Bogut and Barnes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 I think a more interesting matchup is the 01 Lakers vs the 16 Warriors. Same offense, same coach. Better pg than there ever was in Chicago with Fisher. Good size/length, an emerging, explosive superstar top 5 player in Kobe, and Shaq, whi was basically basketballs version of Dark Matter at that point. Good from 3, dominant defensively (GS isn't), and the West was a slaughterhouse during that time period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 (edited) I think a more interesting matchup is the 01 Lakers vs the 16 Warriors. Same offense, same coach. Better pg than there ever was in Chicago with Fisher. Good size/length, an emerging, explosive superstar top 5 player in Kobe, and Shaq, whi was basically basketballs version of Dark Matter at that point. Good from 3, dominant defensively (GS isn't), and the West was a slaughterhouse during that time period. Where did you get the idea that Golden State isn't dominant defensively? They are an excellent defensive team when pace is taken into account. They hold other teams to the third lowest shooting percentage in the NBA. They have three dominant defenders in Bogut, Green and Igoudala. They are just as big and long as those Lakers were (although no one has ever been as big as Shaq). The Warriors' point differential per game is plus 10.7 points per game - the 2001 Lakers were only plus 3.4 per game. That's a huge difference. I do agree, however, that beating the 01 Lakers would be a huge chore for any team because Shaq was basically unstoppable at the offensive end at that time. Edited April 13, 2016 by Predicto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sticksboi05 Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 I've always thought the '86 Celtics when you look at their roster, could beat the 96 Bulls but maybe I'm missing something? Where did you get the idea that Golden State isn't dominant defensively? They are an excellent defensive team when pace is taken into account. They hold other teams to the third lowest shooting percentage in the NBA. They have three dominant defenders in Bogut, Green and Igoudala. They are just as big and long as those Lakers were (although no one has ever been as big as Shaq). The Warriors' point differential per game is plus 10.7 points per game - the 2001 Lakers were only plus 3.4 per game. That's a huge difference. I do agree, however, that beating the 01 Lakers would be a huge chore for any team because Shaq was basically unstoppable at the offensive end at that time. Predicto, you don't have to desperately pump up this year's Warriors, we're not going to call you and old fogey otherwise. : ) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 You beat the 01 Lakers by hack-a-Shaq. He made 51.3% of his FT's that year. That's one of the reasons why that Lakers team lost 26 games in the regular season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Where did you get the idea that Golden State isn't dominant defensively? They are an excellent defensive team when pace is taken into account. im just taking the amount of points they allow into account. But you have a point. So much tempo on offense does lend itself to more points being scored. Still though, im not going to call them "excellent" when I don't even think they're league average in that department Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 I enjoyed the much overlooked "Steve Kerr wormhole" theory from Taco Bell's post lol I'm sure the Bulls would win in the end because I have a hard time going against Jordan in a winner take all series, much less one as motivated as 96 Jordan was. But it wouldn't be the cakewalk most people seem to think. I believe it would go 7. Jordan didn't drive to the basket nearly as much when he came back, which from what I've seen has been a bigger problem for GSW's defense this year, with quicker PGs and players getting to the basketball at will almost. The Bulls don't have anyone that can do that. They would be much slower than this GSW team and I mentioned the bench differenc previously. Every lead the Bulls had would be nullified by the Warriors 2nd unit running them to death and being much more talented. The Bulls won without a dominant big which is another example of Jordan's greatness but it also plays into this GSW matchup as well because you can't expose them in the paint if they go small for example like you could with Shaq or Hakeem etc. It's really a toss up for me but the Jordan factor would push it the Chicago in 7 IMO. And the 96 Bulls would spank the 86 Celtics too. **** those guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 im just taking the amount of points they allow into account. But you have a point. So much tempo on offense does lend itself to more points being scored. Still though, im not going to call them "excellent" when I don't even think they're league average in that department They are not only above league average, they are top 5 in every defensive metric that takes pace into account. A team isn't good at defense just because they slow down the game and take 23 seconds before they put up a shot on offense. It was something like halfway through the season before the Warriors let any team shoot 50% against them in a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 I hate metrics 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 On a completely unrelated note, I didn't realize how many games Shaq missed in his career. He started off ok, but then it was very Beal-esque, going 52, 51, 57, 49 the next 4 years. Kept it together a couple years, then it was 2 years over 70 after age 29. I get it, he was a big dude that took a lot of abuse, but damn, seeing it black and white is jarring. He got lazy. Shaq did absolutely nothing to condition himself over the summers and used the first half of a season to play himself into shape. Missed a lot of games as a result. His goal was to coast through/skip as much of the regular season as he could and be ready for the playoffs. Shaq is a top three all time player if he'd had Kobe's work ethic. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 He got lazy. Shaq did absolutely nothing to condition himself over the summers and used the first half of a season to play himself into shape. Missed a lot of games as a result. His goal was to coast through/skip as much of the regular season as he could and be ready for the playoffs. Shaq is a top three all time player if he'd had Kobe's work ethic. I used to get in a lot of spirited arguments for saying the same thing. It really became an issue with club brass towards the middle of his tenure in Miami. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Whaaaa? Livingston is a very good player who is finally fully back from the most gruesome knee injury anyone has ever seen. Bogut is 50 times the player that Wennington and Longley were, because he is a dominant defensive force. He is consistently at the top of the NBA in rim protection, defensive real plus-minus and every advanced defensive metric. Wennington and Longley were typical 90s frankensteins, no different than Uwe Blab or Jon Koncak or Kwame Brown or Jim McElvaine or Greg Kite or Duane Causewell or any of the other dozens of terrible big men stiffs that populated the NBA during the 90s. Livingston is a journeyman who bounced around seven or eight different teams in the last six years before finding a spot on a dominant team, nothing more. There are three or four dozen Shaun Livingstons floating around the league. There have always been three or four dozen Shaun Livingstons floating around the league. And the quality of their contributions is entirely dependent on the quality of the team they play for. Bogut is a scrub man. In Milwaukee he was much more, but those days are long gone. He basically does one thing well--protect the rim. But he's not a versatile defender that can stay on the floor against small line ups and he doesn't rebound. And he's a self check that puts GS 4 on 5 on offense. That would be a killer if GS didn't have one of the best offensive players ever at PG. For God's sake he has an 11% usage rate. Eleven! That's the territory that the Cleveland and OKC bigs are in, and unlike them, Golden State doesn't have two 30% usage hero ballers taking up all of the possessions. I'm reasonably certain I had a higher usage rate when I was a ten year old third stringer playing in youth league with older players and was terrified to shoot the ball. Golden State could swap Bogut with literally any other back up caliber center in the NBA and lose nothing. He is the definition of replacement level at this point in his career. I used to get in a lot of spirited arguments for saying the same thing. It really became an issue with club brass towards the middle of his tenure in Miami. I think there is obviously a reason Shaq bounced around the league so much and left every team he played for with a bad taste in their mouths. You know this has to be the core reason he and Kobe fell out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justice98 Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 He got lazy. Shaq did absolutely nothing to condition himself over the summers and used the first half of a season to play himself into shape. Missed a lot of games as a result. His goal was to coast through/skip as much of the regular season as he could and be ready for the playoffs. Shaq is a top three all time player if he'd had Kobe's work ethic. This started in his early-mid 20s in Orlando. He was only 23 when that run of missing 25-30 games every year started. I guess the lockout was in there somewhere though too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dont Taze Me Bro Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 Pretty cool speech by Magic and nice tribute/send off video for Kobe. I'm not one that has liked the whole, "Kobe Farewell Tour" the entire season, considering the team has won less than 20 games. But, I loved watching Kobe play the past 20 years. Closest player to MJ that we have seen, imo. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taco Bell Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 yikes curry is putting on a show early Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Do Itch Big Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 Curry might hit 400 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 1. It's fun watching all these tributes from players pretending to like Kobe. 2. I think Steph wants to set the all time 3s record tonight. He's shooting as soon as he touches it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 Kobe emptying the clip in the first quarter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 Well this is going about how I expected. 12pts in 1st quarter on 11 shots. He's going for 40 even if it takes him 50 shots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Do Itch Big Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 Kobe emptying the clip in the first quarter. Does he have 5 3's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taco Bell Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 kobe just had a nice run too I think they said he hit 5 in a row.. both games are going more or less as hoped thus far Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 Does he have 5 3's? Stop the press, are you telling us Curry is better than Kobe in 2016? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Do Itch Big Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 Curry with 20, 6 3's, 6 of 9 shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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