***2021-2022 NBA Season Thread***

[RonArtest15]

Would Cleveland be in the same position had they just kept Wiggins and co?

 

Well, even though it's not saying all that much...he'd provide depth AND defense. 

[Destino]

On the bright side Love can sign somewhere else next season and the angry Cavs fans can be happy he's no longer on the team. It would also be amongst the worst trades in history if Wiggins ever becomes an all star.

I think the three star set up always makes someone look bad. Stars do not thrive when they get the ball consistently in late shot clock situations under less than ideal circumstances. You saw the same thing happen with Bosh in Miami. To those expecting Love to contribute in other ways, like defense... well they are simply foolish and victims of their own poorly laid out expectations.

I'm interested in seeing if Love has a terrible enough year to actually cost him money.

Edited December 27, 2014 by Destino

[JoeWolf990]

On the bright side Love can sign somewhere else next season and the angry Cavs fans can be happy he's no longer on the team. It would also be amongst the worst trades in history if Wiggins ever becomes an all star.

I think the three star set up always makes someone look bad. Stars do not thrive when they get the ball consistently in late shot clock situations under less than ideal circumstances. You saw the same thing happen with Bosh in Miami. To those expecting Love to contribute in other ways, like defense... well they are simply foolish and victims of their own poorly laid out expectations.

I'm interested in seeing if Love has a terrible enough year to actually cost him money.

the thing with Love is that he is absolutely horrendous on defense. We knew that coming in, but the Cavs are probably worse with him there. Bosh was arguably a top 10 defensive player in Miami, while Love may be in the top 150.

I dont think it will cost him money tho. The Lakers will throw everything and the kitchen sink to have him there next year. The Knicks may as well.

Well, even though it's not saying all that much...he'd provide depth AND defense.

along with cap space and assets.

GM Bron has really made a mess there.

[Destino]

Well people have been comparing Lebron to Jordan. Makes sense that he'd be a terrible GM.

[Going Commando]

They haven't figured out how to work in Love.  With Varejao down, the only solution I can think of is to go LeBron at PF and run point full time with Love at the five on a completely spaced out floor.  Open driving lanes for Irving and LeBron.

 

The Emperor's new clothes are definitely gone with Love.  People are seeing just how limited his skill set actually was and that he's not the player that Blake Griffin, LaMarcus Aldridge, and Dirk Nowitzki are.  Those guys all have a reputation for being soft on D.  But they're actually solid defensive players capable of contributing to a good team defense.  Love is an actual terrible defensive player.

 

Love is a super specialist.  Not a complete player, but his skill level in a handful of areas is so good that he can be really valuable to the right team in the right role.  If he had a 3 and 5 around him that could come out and guard PnRs and cover the rim, then you could hide him on D.  And then on offense, if he played with a PG like John Wall and in a system like Washington's he would absolutely thrive and play winning basketball in the process.

 

He needs to go to a ball movement offense IMO where there are not necessarily primary scorers and everyone gets their looks because because their talents mesh so well.  Golden State would have been his best all around fit by far IMO.  San Antonio would have been a great fit.  And DC would be a pretty good fit if the money was there.  Offensively any way.  He'd have to actually play defense here, or alienate himself from the locker room.

I will say this, Love's reliable shooting ability is going to be very valuable in the playoffs.  He can make tough shots coming off screens and on the move.  That's what separates him from most stretch 4s.  That and the natural talent for passing and rebounding.

[EvilMonkeyBoy]

Pistons shot Cleveland out of QuickenLoans Arena today. 17 made 3 pointers. Drummond has been over 65% shooting the past 2 games. Both wins. Addition by Subtraction really works some times.

[JoeWolf990]

Pistons shot Cleveland out of QuickenLoans Arena today. 17 made 3 pointers. Drummond has been over 65% shooting the past 2 games. Both wins. Addition by Subtraction really works some times.

Drummond's last 10 games look scary.

[Going Commando]

Detroit has farted around with Drummond too much.  Obviously they never should have signed Josh Smith, but they also needed to pull the trigger on a Greg Monroe deal long ago.  And they need to find a real PG that can run PnRs with him and get him the ball inside.  The effort to get legit outside shooting has been better, but they still need some more of those too.

 

And Drummond seriously needs to work on improving his shooting.  He's a comically bad shooter from anything beyond three feet.  Awful looking, un-usable hook shot.  No jumper whatsoever.  One of the worst FT shooters in the NBA.  He was supposed to come in this year with an improved post game and a better shot.

 

That said, he has the best body of any big man in the NBA and he's energetic.  If all of those things come together Detroit could actually have something.  What I don't want to see them end up with is Jahlil Okafor, Karl Towns, or Willie Cauley-Stein.  If they pick one of those guys they might as well trade Drummond too.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Stan Van Gundy is just one of those coaches across all sports who I trust just to figure it out. That doesn't mean he'll win a title, but he will eventually figure out the best way for this Detroit team to play and he will figure out the best way to utilize Drummond and his many many limitations.

 

The big thing with Cleveland to me is that they are even worse on defense than I expected....but they are also worse on offense than I expected. And a lot of that has to do with whatever is going on with Lebron. Yes, he probably needs to play the 4 and run the offense, but he hasn't show any compulsion to do either of those things. It's really interesting to me how boring the Cavs are to watch. At least for the first 30 games of Lebron and Wade is was watching two all-time rim attackers trade off attacking the basket. In Cleveland, it's watching a bunch of dudes trade off jumpers.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

I think, with a lot of effort and a little luck, Curry can end up having a pretty good career. Maybe even as good as J.R. Smith or A.J. English.

Let's try to keep this thread serious.

Hopefully I'm not too late, in Curry I see a lot of Dana Barros or, to keep it local, Michael Adams. Definitely has the potential to be a contestant in the 3 Point Shootout one day.

[No Excuses]

Never heard of a big man who is considered one of the best in the game, be voluntarily benched for the entire 4th quarter because of matchups. Against a team like the Magic who are not that good to begin with.

 

That is absurd and very telling about Love.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Juwan Howard appears to be frozen in his adoration for Lebron.

I'm taking that as the greatest "we just beat you" troll face ever, made even better by Bosh behind Howard out of uniform, in a suit

[Going Commando]

What if LeBron spends the rest of his career in Cleveland and never wins the franchise a championship?  Goes down as the greatest SF ever and a top 10 all time player, the best since Jordan, and Cleveland doesn't get a single ring out of him.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I'm taking that as the greatest "we just beat you" troll face ever, made even better by Bosh behind Howard out of uniform, in a suit

 

I froze that during the game. Bosh is the best.

 

By the way, after seeing how clueless Kevin Love appears this year, where has Bosh's all-time ranking gone? That dude figured it out almost immediately in Miami. It was Lebron and Wade who took a few months to work out the kinks. Love looks like he can only play one way and is petulant baby when he can't play that way.

[Skin'emAlive]

You guys can joke all you want but deep down you know, and I've already started bracing, Lebron and company will get 40 ft attempts per game in the playoffs... We average maybe 10.

[Going Commando]

Another thought: the other day Paul Pierce mentioned in regards to Rondo getting traded that the star players today want to team up with each other to chase rings (more than they did in the past) and that player take their destiny into their hands more now, forcing trades and making moves in the offseason.

 

The implication of this is usually that it's a bad thing for the league--wrests control of players out of teams' hands and leads to a loss of league-wide parity as the best players conglomerate together forming super teams.

 

He's right that players will force a move to play with other stars--the generation of stars including Carmelo, Wade, Bosh, LeBron, Deron Williams, Amare Stoudemire, CP3, and Dwight Howard all forced their way onto new teams or signed with new teams in FA so they could play with each other.  That's almost our entire Team USA roster in 2008.

 

And yet the league has more parity today than any season since the 70's.  Weird huh?

 

What's more, a lot of those super teams those players tried to form have ended up failing or at least disappointing so far.  The Clippers are meh and seemed tapped out as a second tier team in the West.  Houston is still early in their window but they haven't won a playoff series yet and seem flimsier than the best teams in the West.  The Nets and Knicks are a dumpster fire.  Only the LeBron/Wade/Bosh trio in Miami lived up to it's potential, and that band has already broken up.

 

What the Big 3 achieved in Miami was truly remarkable.  But the record of everyone else shows that active players make terrible GMs.  And what's most ironic, it seems like several of those players went through major regressions after they left their original team.

[mcsluggo]

 

The W's starting lineup is now scoring 120 points per 100 possessions (tops of all major minute lineups in the league)... while giving up 89 points per opponents 100 possessions (second best in the league)... that is insane!   

 

what is even more insane... is that suddenly my kings are a good defensive team (tops in the league)  WherethehelldidTHATcomefrom??   

 

after this post, the Cousins got meningitis, the Kings fired their defence oriented coach... and ..... Since Malone got fired:

 

Points against:

104

108

108

128

115

135

 

Giving up 115.7 PPG under Corbin... whooooheee!!  

 

and...  have to score 140 points to barely eke out a win against the worthless knickerbockers....   

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I keep coming back to this: NBA players have always always always had the power to force their way out of teams. Look at Wilt's career. or Rick Barry's career. Granted, in the 60s and 70s, you might have to play for the Globetrotters or be a broadcaster, but players have always had the power and exercised the power. And the ABA locked in the mentality forever within the NBA that there is always a better option.

 

The stars from the 80s and 90s that won titles were outliers - Bird, Magic, Isiah, Jordan, Hakeem. And even Hakeem moved around at the end. And the other thing to consider is that everyone of those stars that stayed in one city (not counting Jordan's weird DC sojourn) retired pretty early.

 

But if you go through the rest of the big NBA stars (outside the 60s Celtics), they all moved. And a lot of them moved ugly. Kareem forced his way out. Moses forced his way out. Doc left the Nets under less than ideal circumstances. Shaq. Barkley. It's endless.

 

What's weird is that Barkley has explicitly said that he wanted to play with Kevin Johnson and Dan Marjele and that's why he went to Phoenix. Now, he didn't meet up with them and come up with an elaborate plan like Lebron keeps doing, but what's the difference really?

 

The only reason Kobe didn't force his way out of Los Angeles is because the ridiculously one-sided (at the time) and highly suspicious Gasol trade happened.

[Mr. Sinister]

Brons guilt will ruin him in Cleveland. You'll never convince me that anything but brought him back to that ****hole.

He saw KD`s MVP acceptance speech, and saw the fallout from game 1 of the Finals, and made the decision that now that he has his rings, the only thing left is for him to not be hated anymore

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

So, if Lebron had signed a one-year deal in Miami, could Cleveland had kept its powder dry to sign him this off-season?  I mean, they probably don't get to make the Love-Wiggins deal, but who the hell knows if Love is sticking around regardless?

 

Granted, this is all hindsight. I suspected that Love might be a difficult, shockingly limited player, but I never expected his faults to be this glaring.

[Going Commando]

Think of how devastating to Cleveland fans it would be if that team doesn't get a ring from LeBron.  4 number one overall picks in 11 years, one of which is LeBron, the surest thing prospect to ever come along.  A hometown hero no less.  And if they get no rings?

 

As a Cleveland fan, how could you ever forgive the team for squandering that?  How could you ever have hope for a championship in the future?

 

As a Redskins fan, I'm already in full rebellion over how the team squandered RGIII.  And that's not even in the same ball park as Cleveland's profound failure should they never win a championship.

 

LeBron has got to get them a ring somehow.  To avert a true sports disaster.  Not so much for the sake of his legacy but for the sake of basketball in Ohio.  If not as a player, then he needs to buy the team and steward them to a championship as the owner or GM.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Think of how devastating to Cleveland fans it would be if that team doesn't get a ring from LeBron.  4 number one overall picks in 11 years, one of which is LeBron, the surest thing prospect to ever come along.  A hometown hero no less.  And if they get no rings?

 

As a Cleveland fan, how could you ever forgive the team for squandering that?  How could you ever have hope for a championship in the future?

 

As a Redskins fan, I'm already in full rebellion over how the team squandered RGIII.  And that's not even in the same ball park as Cleveland's profound failure should they never win a championship.

 

LeBron has got to get them a ring somehow.  To avert a true sports disaster.  Not so much for the sake of his legacy but for the sake of basketball in Ohio.  If not as a player, then he needs to buy the team and steward them to a championship as the owner or GM.

 

This may be Pat Riley's ultimate victory. I wonder if he knew all along exactly how much he was squeezing from Lebron. My guess is that if Lebron had stayed in Miamia, we wouldn't have noticed the change in his physical dominance for a year or two, because that uniform and that system would have made us think everything was the same. But in Cleveland, it's really standing out. He's just not as good as he was three years ago. Whether that is by choice and whether he can turn it on in the playoffs is the question, I guess.

[Mr. Sinister]

Dont care how much of a physical freak you are. 4 straight Finals, tons of minutes and an Olympic bid takes its toll

[Going Commando]

Granted, this is all hindsight. I suspected that Love might be a difficult, shockingly limited player, but I never expected his faults to be this glaring.

What's surprising to me is that Love is clearly the third wheel and not Irving. I had a nagging feeling that could happen, but it seemed like he would be LeBron's true running mate, that their talents complimented each other well, and that they'd form the best forward tandem in the league.

I keep going back to and laughing at Nate Silver's blog post predicting 65 wins for the Cavs based on a WAR-like stat that had Kevin Love worth something like 15 wins on his own. Yeah... that was dumb. He made no account whatsoever for situation and role.

Anyway, Love does seem limited, and he is. He's always been an in the flow scorer, not someone who can really take over as a scorer unless he's in a zone as a shooter. But he's not as bad or limited as Cleveland is making him look. They don't know what to do with him. Love has good scoring ability. He's a big man that can run around on the perimeter and shoot like a perimeter player. He can come off screens and shoot. He can create separation off the dribble on his shot like a wing. And he can contribute as a scorer without dominating the ball like Irving.

I'm pretty confident that Love is the superior player to Irving and I'm still confident he's a better fit beside LeBron than Irving. I think the Cavs would be so much better off trading Irving for a high quality defensive minded center and replacing him with a point guard that can play defense, keep the ball moving, and just hit open threes. A role player.

But Cleveland is stuck. They'll never move Irving in time to salvage this construction. And that Varejao contract is an unmitigated disaster.

[Going Commando]

I keep trying to figure out how to fix Cleveland's roster by balancing it out and I keep getting stuck on Varejao's contract. That thing is depressing. That's essentially a self-imposed 10 million dollar cap penalty for the next three years after this season.

If I'm Kevin Love there is no way I commit to Cleveland long term. The most I'd do is pick up my option for next season and wait for better options to have cap space in the Durant summer. I'd be making sure I end up on Washington, San Antonio, Golden State, or Toronto.

The Wizards are his ideal fit if they could move Nene's contract, which is a 13 million dollar expiring next season. A star pass first PG that's the best drive and kick facilitator in the league; a top 5 defensive team with a real center; an offense full of good passers that keep the ball moving; a couple of jets in the backcourt for Love to throw outlets to. They're the team that could have the other four members of the starting five in place around him for 5+ years.

But I'd doubt he'd want to play for Randy Wittman again. I doubt the Wizards would be able to clear the cap space in time for this summer. And I don't doubt that the Wizards would much rather chase after Durant than Love.