The Official ES All Things Redskins Name Change Thread (Reboot Edition---Read New OP)

[Larry]

Perhaps the Natives who claim offense don't need a new public upon poll to justify their beliefs.

They do if they want to claim that their opinion is also everybody else's opinion.

I can assert that I've talked to several people, and they all support Paul Ryan for President. (It may even be true).

But if I want other people to believe my assertion that Ryan has the support of all Americans, I'm gonna have to point at a poll.

[Kosher Ham]

RFK, How many times do I have to tell you that I am Native American ? I have 3 siblings...none of us are offended by the name. My Grandmother is not offended by the name and she is 100% as is my Mother.

 

We all think it's an absurd challenge to change the name of the team.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Conversely, if he approved of the name bc a majority of whites polled feel the same way, than that would be white pride. 

 

The Red Mesa Redskins to the Washington Redskins = Arsenio Hall to Jimmy Fallon. Not everyone can do and say the same things under the same context. 

 

Perhaps the Natives who claim offense don't need a new public upon poll to justify their beliefs. Those Natives beliefs might be based on real life experience, other than sports fandom.

Did anyone here release polling information on the Redskins' name based on whites? I must have missed that. White guilt is not the answer to white pride, both are wrong. Because I am white does not remove my interest in this issue nor the legitimacy of my opinion. Not to mention the facts at hand.

 

RE Arsenio, I assume you're indirectly referring to the N-word. In case you haven't figured it out yet, the N-word is NOT the same as Redskins, unless you can find me a school of-for-and-by African Americans with "Try Harder ***** Try Harder" painted on the wall.

 

As for the NA needing or not needing a poll, you're right they don't need a poll to legitimize their own personal offense. However, when they stand up and attempt to speak on behalf of their people as a whole then they need to back up their speech and opinion with verifiable facts. Unless of course you're going to make the argument that anyone can speak on behalf of an entire race without some backing or support that is reflected by reality.

[Larry]

Did anyone here release polling information on the Redskins' name based on whites? I must have missed that. White guilt is not the answer to white pride, both are wrong. Because I am white does not remove my interest in this issue nor the legitimacy of my opinion. Not to mention the facts at hand.

Actually, I seem to remember that somebody (ESPN?) did a poll of all Americans, a year or two ago. That one said that 80% approved of the name.

But I think it was an internet poll, which I consider to be pretty much useless.

And I will point out that even the "n word" is not offensive, when it's used in a context that isn't offensive. Just ask Mel Brooks.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Actually, I seem to remember that somebody (ESPN?) did a poll of all Americans, a year or two ago. That one said that 80% approved of the name.

But I think it was an internet poll, which I consider to be pretty much useless.

Right, but I'm responding directly to his post which indicates a white only poll...it's probably an argument from silence but my guess is that the poll "of Americans" included more than just whites. That being said, I guess it would also be safe to assume that given the overall population of the United States that we could with a high degree of probability assume that the greater number of respodents to that poll were white and if we are going to negate white opinion on this issue then the results of even THAT poll are subject to being thrown out.

 

Isn't white guilt fun?

[Larry]

Right, but I'm responding directly to his post which indicates a white only poll...it's probably an argument from silence but my guess is that the poll "of Americans" included more than just whites.

No doubt. But I assume they were the largest demographic.

[RFKFedEx]

Did anyone here release polling information on the Redskins' name based on whites? I must have missed that. White guilt is not the answer to white pride, both are wrong. Because I am white does not remove my interest in this issue nor the legitimacy of my opinion. Not to mention the facts at hand.

 

RE Arsenio, I assume you're indirectly referring to the N-word. In case you haven't figured it out yet, the N-word is NOT the same as Redskins, unless you can find me a school of-for-and-by African Americans with "Try Harder ***** Try Harder" painted on the wall.

 

As for the NA needing or not needing a poll, you're right they don't need a poll to legitimize their own personal offense. However, when they stand up and attempt to speak on behalf of their people as a whole then they need to back up their speech and opinion with verifiable facts. Unless of course you're going to make the argument that anyone can speak on behalf of an entire race without some backing or support that is reflected by reality.

The Annenberg poll asked for race and ethnicity of the respondents, if I remember correctly. 

 

Don't assume the N word when I mention Arsenio. I've never heard him use the word on his tv show. Fallon and Hall can both make fun of Obama, but Arsenio can go about it it in ways Fallon can't.

 

What Native leader has announced they're speaking on behalf of all Native Americans?

[Larry]

What Native leader has announced they're speaking on behalf of all Native Americans?

Which one announced that he's only speaking for himself?

The Annenberg poll asked for race and ethnicity of the respondents, if I remember correctly.

Yes, they always do. (It's part of their polling, every election.)

All reputable polls do. They have to. Both so they can break down the results, and so that they can correct for under representation.

[AsburySkinsFan]

The Annenberg poll asked for race and ethnicity of the respondents, if I remember correctly. 

 

Don't assume the N word when I mention Arsenio. I've never heard him use the word on his tv show. Fallon and Hall can both make fun of Obama, but Arsenio can go about it it in ways Fallon can't.

 

What Native leader has announced they're speaking on behalf of all Native Americans?

Of course the Annenberg poll asked for race, they did so in order to isolate the Native American respodents so the results would be race specific to the race in question.

 

RE Arsenio, fine, but when it comes to the claimed offensiveness of the name Redskins the oft cited equivalent is the N-word. We're not talking about racial jokes, we are talking about a claim that Redskins is an offensive and racist slur.

 

When NA claim that Redskins is offensive to Native Americans they are putting themselves in an assumed position of speaking for a people, they may offer slight disclaimers/qualifications but the reality is that they are attempting to make wide-sweeping claims of offense supposedly shared by a particular people. Claims that have not been justified, nor validated by any evidence to date.

[RFKFedEx]

RFK, How many times do I have to tell you that I am Native American ? I have 3 siblings...none of us are offended by the name. My Grandmother is not offended by the name and she is 100% as is my Mother.

We all think it's an absurd challenge to change the name of the team.

not sure you've ever told me that Kosher. The three Natives I've known in life were all opposed to the name, and hoped we would change, so I guess there's balance between our experiences.

[AsburySkinsFan]

not sure you've ever told me that Kosher. The three Natives I've known in life were all opposed to the name, and hoped we would change, so I guess there's balance between our experiences.

And for the record...all entirely anecdotal.

[RFKFedEx]

Of course your honor. But... when a poster has claims of Native support, that's submissable evidence in your court correct?

[Bang]

the only admissable evidence is to ask them.

 

Whatever they say is evident of how they feel, and how everyone should then proceed.

 

All Harjo has to do is ask. Commission a poll of native Americans and put the issue to bed. There's only one reason I can think of why they don't.

 

~Bang

[AsburySkinsFan]

Of course your honor. But... when a poster has claims of Native support, that's submissable evidence in your court correct?

If you re-read my post I wrote, "all entirely anecdotal" which on the basis of the post I was quoting also refered to a poster's claim of Native support. His claim is anecdotal too...which is why I wrote what I wrote, the way that I wrote it.

There's only one reason I can think of why they don't.

 

~Bang

Or have and won't release the results to the public.

[RFKFedEx]

I get you ASF.

Bang, u and I know that some of our name supporters won't be satisfied there's a need for change until they see the masses marching with megaphones, signs on sticks, parade permitts for PA Ave. etc.

Meanwhile history is molding our current owner into GPM 2.0. There's still time to correct that.

[Bang]

I get you ASF.

Bang, u and I know that some of our name supporters won't be satisfied there's a need for change until they see the masses marching with megaphones, signs on sticks, parade permitts for PA Ave. etc.

Meanwhile history is molding our current owner into GPM 2.0. There's still time to correct that.

 

I fail to see what that has to do with anything i said what-so ever.

 

Team fans be damned. A poll answers the question, permanently. 

 

 

All you say is when noisy people yell, you should roll over. Casting Snyder as anything is a ridiculously shallow reason to worry about this. Since the sports world learned who Dan Snyder is, he has been cast as

A/ a silver-spoon spoiled rich kid.

False. He made his money from scratch.

B/ All the worst examples of a Capitalist in sports.

1. He charged people to visit training camp! Who does he think he is!!!

Half the NFL does this now. We don't. But ask people what's wrong with Snyder, and this will come up,, a one time thing that happened 15 years ago, that is now likely done by their team.

2. HE forced two sweet little kids to stop selling homemade lemonade in their all American home-made little kid lemonade stand when training camp was in Carlisle.

False, coca Cola forced the two kids off the property, because they had an exclusive contract, and kicking little kids out is something they do... but Snyder took the knock.

And now you worry he's being cast as George Preston Marshall 2..  which is a comparison that truly I've only ever heard YOU make. but, supposing it is out there, I have a couple questions..

 

Did Marshall willingly and voluntarily set up any foundations with his money to help or support ANY persons of color?

Because Snyder has.  real help. Real work on real problems. 

Did Marshall set up any contracts fo stadium services strictly and speifically with minority owned businesses?

Snyder has, specifically Native American owned businesses.

 

You're so worried over perceptions.. and yet the perception of TRUTH is never considered. What is the number of NAs who support this name? Do you care?

this worry over how the ball rolls on issues like this.. OK, I agree, when an entire race of people is telling everyone who will listen that they feel this way,, such as black people overwhelmingly (nearly) unanimously stating they want change ..  that rolls balls with righteousness.

 

this ball is being shoved along by a very small group, with shady people involved, and a cadre of bandwagon hopping self-aggrandizing journalists who want the back pats so much that they give them to themselves when they publissh how they "feel" about this suddenly so obvious issue.

 

and you know what? When African Americans united in near unanimous voice to demand change, there were and ARE still people who didn't want to give it to them, who still believe they're second class, still believe they don't deserve equality.

 

But because their voice was SO STRONG and SO UNANIMOUS, those people and their bigoted idiocy are shoved aside.

 

this situation is not like that situation at all.

And there's only one way to make it into such a situation.

 

Ask them.

 

That's all.

 

~Bang

[Spearfeather]

Meanwhile history is molding our current owner into GPM 2.0. There's still time to correct that.

 

That would be a ridiculous comparison, of course, and changing the name will not stop their hatred for Snyder.

[BleedBNG]

 

 

This is terrible. Someone needs to tell these young kids that they're associating with something ignorant, demeaning, and showing entitlement.

[grego]

Of course your honor. But... when a poster has claims of Native support, that's submissable evidence in your court correct?

 

you have evidence that the name was originally a slur- or originally referred to scalps? post it.  because thats what harjo and halbritter are selling. those of us on the other side are all ears. 

 

you have evidence that 91% arent ok with the name? post it. we are practically begging for it.

 

i know 3 people that think the world is flat. they swear they've seen bigfoot, and they believe they were abducted by aliens. i hearby petition everyone in america to change all scientific textbooks to reflect their beliefs, no matter how non-factual, made-up, or otherwise absurd they may be. 

 

youre with me, right?

 

you think 9% of the public dont believe in aliens or bigfoot? 

[GhostofSparta]

Bang, u and I know that some of our name supporters won't be satisfied there's a need for change until they see the masses marching with megaphones, signs on sticks, parade permitts for PA Ave. etc.

Meanwhile history is molding our current owner into GPM 2.0. There's still time to correct that.

Speaking only for myself, I don't need to see this:

but I'd be more convinced if there was a stronger showing than this:

 

I'm not going to try to discredit or belittle those people. They showed up in the rain to protest for something they believed in. Considering how many people don't freaking vote because it's raining (seriously, look up those statistics if you don't know that claim), then it's east to see that these people clearly believe that the name is wrong.

 

But in your opinion, how big does an offended group have to be before the majority must bow to their wishes? I mean, should we stop using the term "Black Hole" if it offends somebody? If not 1 person, how about 1% of the population, or 1% of African Americans? At what point do the offended start to matter? Do you still use the word "picnic?" Because even if the word doesn't have any connections to lynching, if somebody believes it does then why should the facts matter?

 

It's hard to "reason" somebody out of being offended. It's not impossible, but it has to be handled right. I'm going to try not to make light of an historically oppressed people who are honestly offended by our team name. I have no idea what they've been through, and maybe they're hoping a small but public impact like this will bring more of their people's plight to light. But I've never seen a protest group so small (the Oneida crowd above) get so much media attention outside of WBC.

 

But don't ****ing tell me that white people aren't allowed to say what's not offensive when it's other white people who are trying to convince us what is. If idiots like UnWise Mike and his ilk are allowed to disregard the opinions of ~90% of Native Americans (or that he's speaking on their behalf when they disagree with him), then somebody needs to point out just how bigoted that is.

[Bang]

Never let it be forgotten that Ray Halbitter is a GAMBLER who makes his living on booking sports bets.

 

NO ONE should listen to anything he says about ANY sports team ANYWHERE without keeping this in mind.

No matter WHAT he says, no matter WHAT he does, because he is a gambler, his motivations must always be questioned.

Especially if he can insinuate himself into a position to directly distract a team.To think it has not crossed his mind is naive. And if it crosses his mind, i wonder what he'd do?

 

Unless of course he is that one big time gambler and straight nosed casino owner who doesn't obsess over their bets and how they can find an edge to win.

 

~Bang

[RonYoungEra]

Okay now that it's been established that at least 9% of this forum are for the change, let's talk potential new names.  I definitely think we should just get away from the Native American culture all together; ie-NOT the Warriors or the Braves or such ilk. 

 

I've been thinking about it recently, and was hoping for something patriotic from DC, a la the Nationals and the Capitols, to really represent our nation well.  I'm thinking either the Washington Glory or the Washington Alliance.  I kind of like the Alliance.  Very unifying.  Not sure what the new uniforms would look like and we can still keep the burgundy and gold.  Looking forward to bringing people from all walks of life, even Democrats and Republicans, together to support America's Team once again!

you have evidence that the name was originally a slur- or originally referred to scalps? post it.  because thats what harjo and halbritter are selling. those of us on the other side are all ears.

 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/06/01/the-racist-redskins.html

 

http://www.aics.org/mascot/redskins.html

[Beygo]

You really should go back and scan through this thread.  There's a lot of information about the name and where it came from.  You are bring up topics that have already been addressed. 

 

That article just makes a statement that the name refers to scalps, it does not cite any research.  That's not evidence.

[RonYoungEra]

http://deadspin.com/redskins-a-natives-guide-to-debating-an-inglorious-1445909360

You really should go back and scan through this thread.  There's a lot of information about the name and where it came from.  You are bring up topics that have already been addressed. 

 

That article just makes a statement that the name refers to scalps, it does not cite any research.  That's not evidence.

 

He asked for evidence of the name "redskins" being used to reference the scalps of Native Americans that were slaughtered.  I'm providing that.

http://www.nativetimes.com/index.php/life/commentary/9031-its-time-to-change-washington-redskins-name

[Bang]

When did we establish 9% of this forum was for a change?

I have no idea how many of we ES members want a change, but if i had to bet, i'd go higher than 9%

 

~Bang