WP:Drop ‘Redskins’ name? Time to take a stand. (By Robert McCartney)

[Patrick Evidente]

My best friend married a full-blooded member of the Yakima Tribe from the Oregon/Washington State area. When I first met her I NEVER said "Redskins" around her... I would only say "Washington" and that's it. It was weird for me but I didn't want to say anything to offend her or him (he is white, FWIW). One day, we were watching a game at his/her house and she looked at me and just out of nowhere asked "Why do you never say Redskins? You only say Washington?" I honestly didn't know what to say to her... so I went with the ole' "Because I don't want to offend you." She busted out laughing at me and said that it's one of "the dumbest misconceptions out there and it doesn't offend anyone." Then she proceeded to open up her lap top and told me to come sit by her. She showed me pics of all of her Uncles and cousins wearing Redskins gear and at games in Seattle and San Fran. I asked her why they were fans of the Redskins if they were from the Seattle area and she said "They just always have been. I don't know. I guess because of the name."

I never would've thought a million years, that I was the ignorant one and that I was the one making things awkward because I didn't bring it up as a topic and see what her actual feelings were.

Her and I became very close friends and to this day she is my closest female friend (besides the wifey of course). We still talk every day either over the phone or via text.

EDIT: I am also god father to two out of their three children and their happiness, safety, and self-esteem mean more to me than anything Redskins. If they were offended by it, I would be on the other side of this argument. End of discussion for me.

The PC crowd will never believe this story because they know what kinds of things should offend people and what should not offend people.

[Larry]

Y'know, I remember being really offended when somebody made the claim that there were 10 posters in this thread complaining about the threats of PC. I think it had been mentioned once in the thread, at that point. I was offended at the person making up claims about his opponents.

But y'know? AFTER e made that claim, there sure have been a parade of people, trying to make his claim retroactively true.

[Predicto]

Y'know, I remember being really offended when somebody made the claim that there were 10 posters in this thread complaining about the threats of PC. I think it had been mentioned once in the thread, at that point. I was offended at the person making up claims about his opponents.

But y'know? AFTER e made that claim, there sure have been a parade of people, trying to make his claim retroactively true.

*poof of brimstone*

It had come up more than once in this thread before I pointed it out. And let's face it, it always is an underlying theme for many people (not everyone) when this subject comes up.

*disappears again*

[Going Commando]

Why would anyone do that? Do you go up to white people and say Hi Whiteskin? To Asians and say Hi Yellowskin? Or to Hispanics and say Hi Brownskin? You keep saying this as if people actually do this.

You're missing the point. The point is that people don't do those things. If you did do them, it would be offensive. It's offensive to identify and refer to someone by the color of their skin. And all of those terms are made up and don't have the pejorative history Redskin does.

Look, I'm not really trying to convert anyone. I don't care enough about this issue to wade through the bog of specious arguments attempting to prove the term isn't racist and break down line by line all of bad premises and assumptions made to get there. To me, that Redskins is a racial slur is self evident in our society. More than anything, I find it amusing to see so many otherwise reasonable posters lie to themselves to justify this inconsistency. I think you all should understand this though, pretty much the entire rest of the country outside the fan base knows Redskins is a racial slur. And having a racial slur for your team nickname is not good for the brand. What do you all think goes through the mind of the random person who has no knowledge of the Redskins and the history when they first come across the name? "What the hell kind of racist ass team has a slur for a nickname?"

Who enjoys being the fan of "that team with the racist name"?

[Larry]

It's offensive to identify and refer to someone by the color of their skin.

You keep making that claim.

1) It's not true. The statement "Tiger Woods is black, and Phil Mickelson is white." refers to the color of their skin, but it's not offensive.

2) And this thread isn't about whether referring to a person as "redskin" is offensive. (It isn't, necessarily. Referring to Darrel Green as a Redskin isn't offensive.) It's about whether referring to a football team as "Redskins" is offensive. (And the only objective fact brought to the discussion says that no, it isn't.)

And all of those terms are made up and don't have the pejorative history Redskin does.

Yes, all of those terms are made up.

And don't have 75 years of positive, common, everyday usage.

Yeah, if you take the overwhelming common, everyday use of the term, pretend that it doesn't exist, and take the usage from 100 years ago, and pretend that that usage were still being used, today, then you'd have a point.

But I don't live in an alternate universe. I live in this one.

pretty much the entire rest of the country outside the fan base knows Redskins is a racial slur

Well, the fan base, and 90% of all Native Americans.

But feel free to keep announcing, in direct contradiction of facts, that your opinion is a Universal Truth.

Why let facts interfere with an opinion?

[The Evil Genius]

They did a poll of all Native Americans, Larry?

[Larry]

They did a poll of all Native Americans, Larry?

Yes, they did.

It's been posted every single thread where this issue has been brought up. Including this one.

(Now, if your point is "Well, if they only asked a statistically valid, random, sample of Native Americans, then well, I'm going to keep spouting my claim that my opinion is Universal Truth, despite this fact", then please feel free to keep demonstrating how far you'll go in your attempt to inflate your opinion.)

[AsburySkinsFan]

The folks who keep railing against the team name are exercising their right to build their opinions not upon fact, but truthiness.

Colbert would be proud.

[The Evil Genius]

Nevermind. Some issues really aren't worth the time or trouble.

So..states rights, right?

[Predicto]

The folks who keep railing against the team name are exercising their right to build their opinions not upon fact, but truthiness.

Colbert would be proud.

Oh please.

The 15 dictionary definitions are what convinced me that the word is now commonly understood to be offensive. That's an actual fact, even if we don't want it to be one. Even if we try to explain it away. Even if some people don't care that much. Even if our intentions are good.

[deejaydana]

my new name suggestion: The Washington Casino-Owners

[Larry]

Oh please.

The 15 dictionary definitions are what convinced me that the word is now commonly understood to be offensive.

And the fact that those 15 dictionary definition all live in an alternate universe in which the overwhelming common usage, doesn't exist, and where the overwhelming majority of people who do live in the real world, disagree with you, isn't going to change your conclusion.

That's an actual fact, even if we don't want it to be one.

Yes, it is an actual fact that, if you travel into an alternate universe where the offensive use of the word is the only use that exists, then the word is offensive.

[Patrick Evidente]

What do you all think goes through the mind of the random person who has no knowledge of the Redskins and the history when they first come across the name? "What the hell kind of racist ass team has a slur for a nickname?"

Who enjoys being the fan of "that team with the racist name"?

I have always wondered: Did people back in the 1970s and 1980s think about racial slurs when the name Washington Redskins was mentioned?

[The Evil Genius]

I have always wondered: Did people back in the 1970s and 1980s think about racial slurs when the name Washington Redskins was mentioned?

Stanford University was forced to change their name in the early 70's..and they were the Indians.

[deejaydana]

I have always wondered: Did people back in the 1970s and 1980s think about racial slurs when the name Washington Redskins was mentioned?

Can't speak to that but the game overall was MUCH, MUCH better in the 70's and 80's (cause they let them actually play the game).

[Patrick Evidente]

Stanford University was forced to change their name in the early 70's..and they were the Indians.

What about the Redskins?

[Predicto]

And the fact that those 15 dictionary definition all live in an alternate universe in which the overwhelming common usage, doesn't exist, and where the overwhelming majority of people who do live in the real world, disagree with you, isn't going to change your conclusion.

Yes, it is an actual fact that, if you travel into an alternate universe where the offensive use of the word is the only use that exists, then the word is offensive.

You have made this point 15 times. That's fine - that's how you want to construct the question. But it doesn't resolve the question for everyone, just for you. I don't think it is valid to parse the question the way you do. I don't think the name of the team can be separated that easily from its dictionary meaning. I consider it a circular argument. Now, you are entitled to your construct and personal determination of what matters here, but please stop acting as though I am being intellectually dishonest for not buying into it. I acknowledge it, I understand it, I don't buy it as the definitive resolution.

And once again for the record, I was only responding this time to the assertion that those who think the name might be outmoded have "no" facts and are relying on "truthiness." That is an unfair characterization. If someone made it toward you, you would have a 20 page blowup about it.

---------- Post added February-8th-2013 at 04:31 PM ----------

Stanford University was forced to change their name in the early 70's..and they were the Indians.

Actually, they weren't "forced" to change it. Native American students requested the change because it seemed anachronistic and the University president agreed. Some alumni ****ed, but it didn't kill them and they moved on.

The choice in our case remains with Dan Snyder, and I doubt he is going to change it any time soon. That's his right.

[elkabong82]

Oh please.

The 15 dictionary definitions are what convinced me that the word is now commonly understood to be offensive. That's an actual fact, even if we don't want it to be one. Even if we try to explain it away. Even if some people don't care that much. Even if our intentions are good.

By this same logic, the n word was once not offensive and also meant ignorant. The dictionary, as I pointed out, is not the end all be all for definitions on cultural words. The dictionary can, and has, gotten cultural definitions wrong. In the case of the n word, they backed up racism, in the case of redskins they are backing up an overreaction by the PC movement.

I asked you before, and I'll ask again, show me some primary sources where Redskin is being used as a derogatory term or is shown to ever have been a commonly used derogatory term. Just because some people think it SOUNDS offensive, doesn't mean it actually is offensive. People's ignorance of the word's meaning shouldn't be a righteous cause to change the name.

For the umpteenth time, if NA folk were largely shown to be offended by the name then most of us would favor a name change. But the large majority of them are not, and it is their decision whether or not Redskins is offensive. The vast majority of NA folk don't find the term offensive, so it isn't, case closed. In fact, it is insulting for non-NA people to tell NA people what terms they should be offended by.

[Tweedr01]

You're missing the point. The point is that people don't do those things. If you did do them, it would be offensive. It's offensive to identify and refer to someone by the color of their skin. And all of those terms are made up and don't have the pejorative history Redskin does.

Look, I'm not really trying to convert anyone. I don't care enough about this issue to wade through the bog of specious arguments attempting to prove the term isn't racist and break down line by line all of bad premises and assumptions made to get there. To me, that Redskins is a racial slur is self evident in our society. More than anything, I find it amusing to see so many otherwise reasonable posters lie to themselves to justify this inconsistency. I think you all should understand this though, pretty much the entire rest of the country outside the fan base knows Redskins is a racial slur. And having a racial slur for your team nickname is not good for the brand. What do you all think goes through the mind of the random person who has no knowledge of the Redskins and the history when they first come across the name? "What the hell kind of racist ass team has a slur for a nickname?"

Who enjoys being the fan of "that team with the racist name"?

But the point is stupid, would you walk up to a Native American and say hey you brave, or hey Indian, or walk up to clay Matthews and say hey Viking (which he mislike for more than one reason), or what about a short guy, would you say hey fightin' Irish, would you call a fat guy a giant? Anything can be insulting if you intend it to be, redskins isn't meant to be offensive. We say it with the utmost pride, at least I do. Just my thoughts.

[Larry]

You have made this point 15 times. That's fine - that's how you want to construct the question. But it doesn't resolve the question for everyone, just for you.

Ah, got it.

"Well, yeah, dictionaries, by their own rules, are required to ignore some things. And, in this particular case, those rules cause them to ignore the overwhelming common usage of the term. (In fact, I would suspect, the two most common usages: The football team, and potatoes.) And well, you think it's important that the source I'm pointing at as authoritative is intentionally ignoring the vast majority of reality, and pretending that the one, obsolete, use that I want to point at is, in fact, the entirety of it's usage. But I don't think that the fact it ignores reality is important. So there."

I don't think it is valid to parse the question the way you do.

What question?

"Is the name 'Washington Redskins' offensive?"

I could have sworn that that was the topic of the thread.

I don't think the name of the team can be separated that easily from its dictionary meaning.

Well, apparently, 90% of Native Americans don't have trouble with the fact that proper nouns exist, and that a term's meaning changes, depending on how it's used.

I will point out that the all holy dictionary even recognizes the second concept.

---------- Post added February-8th-2013 at 06:24 PM ----------

By this same logic, the n word was once not offensive and also meant ignorant. The dictionary, as I pointed out, is not the end all be all for definitions on cultural words. The dictionary can, and has, gotten cultural definitions wrong. In the case of the n word, they backed up racism, in the case of redskins they are backing up an overreaction by the PC movement.

I asked you before, and I'll ask again, show me some primary sources where Redskin is being used as a derogatory term or is shown to ever have been a commonly used derogatory term. Just because some people think it SOUNDS offensive, doesn't mean it actually is offensive. People's ignorance of the word's meaning shouldn't be a righteous cause to change the name.

For the umpteenth time, if NA folk were largely shown to be offended by the name then most of us would favor a name change. But the large majority of them are not, and it is their decision whether or not Redskins is offensive. The vast majority of NA folk don't find the term offensive, so it isn't, case closed. In fact, it is insulting for non-NA people to tell NA people what terms they should be offended by.

Now, I would disagree with two of your points.

Yes, dictionaries do put a whole lot of effort into determining, concisely and definitively, what a word means, right now, as used today.

They may not be perfect. They may have an institutional conservatism, a prejudice for not changing a word's meaning as quickly as society does. But they do try.

After all, that is the product that they're selling.

----------

And I would assert that if people feel that something is offensive, then it is.

(However, I also assert the converse.)

[RFKFedEx]

Wow the WP just won't quit.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/patrick-pexton-listening-to-native-americans/2013/02/08/2c784b9c-715f-11e2-a050-b83a7b35c4b5_story.html?hpid=z6

[88Comrade2000]

The only way a name change occurs is if the government or NFL forces a change or it becomes financially beneficial to Danny to make a name chnage.

[visionary]

Wow the WP just won't quit.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/patrick-pexton-listening-to-native-americans/2013/02/08/2c784b9c-715f-11e2-a050-b83a7b35c4b5_story.html?hpid=z6

Wow...so much bull**** in that article. I especially like the ridiculous army analogy.

[ArmchairRedskin]

This whole discussion reminds me of the "F Word" Southpark episode. Some of the same exact arguments.

[SWFLSkins]

Oh, look. It's time for our annual "it's the offseason, lets try to manufacture a controversy" article.

/thread, second post.