FOX: Panetta opens combat roles to women

[renaissance]

And in order to train a femail to be an 11B, you are required to have a female Drill Instructor, separate female bunls, separate female latrines, you have to pair females together for all close quarters combat drills and self defense drills, you have to have female battle buddies, which all mean you have to manage the number of female recuits in each class. You also have to ensure the same concessions are made for the fallow on AIT. Granted, most combat arms are now OSAT.

They figured out how to integrate women into the military, onto subs, into military academies, into airborne school, etc, etc. It took an act of congress to allow women to attend West Point. They figured that out. I'm sure they will figure this out as well. Nobody is saying it's going to be simple or straightforward, or easy. But some people here are making it out to be inconceivable and even impossible; they're also making it out as if every woman in the military should be allowed out on the front lines right now.

Also, if very few women have the interest in pursuing combat arms, why are we pushing this?

I addressed that in my last sentence. Plus, women only make up like 14% of the military. Does that mean we shouldn't allow them to join? If they can do the job, the deserve the same opportunities (especially the same advancement opportunities) afforded to men.

[sacase]

I think we are forgetting one point. The military is not about equality and giving everyone a chance. That is why people with certain medical conditions are not allowed to serve. It is about winning in combat. Period.

Point being, budgets are strained right now. Military budgets are being reduced so there is less money to train personnel. Why I am going to spend a ton of money on something, when MAYBE 20 out of 100 women MIGHT pass OSUT Infantry school. It is much more economical to have 80% of males pass when you do not need special considerations for them. We are taking money that could be used to support other more important programs, for a feel good initiative that doesn't make sense.

If they change the PT standards to what the male standards are right now and make it the ONLY standard, I would accept that. However, the amount of complaining you would hear from women because they have a harder time getting promotions because of it would dramatically increase.

I wish I could have taped our first FTX in PLDC when I made all the females carry the M249's and radios....the whining was epic.

[twa]

If they change the PT standards to what the male standards are right now and make it the ONLY standard, I would accept that. However, the amount of complaining you would hear from women because they have a harder time getting promotions because of it would dramatically increase.

I wish I could have taped our first FTX in PLDC when I made all the females carry the M249's and radios....the whining was epic.

I like that idea ,seems grossly unfair to have different standards w/o reward for extra requirements....and failing the higher standard does impact pay

[jpillian]

I wish I could have taped our first FTX in PLDC when I made all the females carry the M249's and radios....the whining was epic.

I seem to recall similar experiences at West Point during "Infantry Week". All the gung ho females would volunteer to carry the M60 for the week. Lasted for about a 1/4 mile into the initial ruck march.

That being said, I saw a number of females that were very effective in many capacities in the military. However, I knew few that would have been able to pass the male PT test. Situps they could muster. Push ups and the run were another matter. And that's all at body weight, let alone all of the body weight-plus work you're expected to be able to do in combat.

[zoony]

I think we are forgetting one point. The military is not about equality and giving everyone a chance. That is why people with certain medical conditions are not allowed to serve. It is about winning in combat. Period.

Point being, budgets are strained right now. Military budgets are being reduced so there is less money to train personnel. Why I am going to spend a ton of money on something, when MAYBE 20 out of 100 women MIGHT pass OSUT Infantry school. It is much more economical to have 80% of males pass when you do not need special considerations for them. We are taking money that could be used to support other more important programs, for a feel good initiative that doesn't make sense.

If they change the PT standards to what the male standards are right now and make it the ONLY standard, I would accept that. However, the amount of complaining you would hear from women because they have a harder time getting promotions because of it would dramatically increase.

I wish I could have taped our first FTX in PLDC when I made all the females carry the M249's and radios....the whining was epic.

Yah. The enemy doesn't give a **** about equality, that's for dam sure

[sacase]

I seem to recall similar experiences at West Point during "Infantry Week". All the gung ho females would volunteer to carry the M60 for the week. Lasted for about a 1/4 mile into the initial ruck march.

That being said, I saw a number of females that were very effective in many capacities in the military. However, I knew few that would have been able to pass the male PT test. Situps they could muster. Push ups and the run were another matter. And that's all at body weight, let alone all of the body weight-plus work you're expected to be able to do in combat.

I agree, there are many capacities that they serve with distinction. I knew many sharp female soldiers. Hell dated one that was in Phenomenal shape, she spent 2 hours in the gym every evening in addition to normal PT. Only female I dated that had a six pack. The male body can barely take the strain of combat arms....I hate to see what it would do to the female body.

[RansomthePasserby]

you have to pair females together for all close quarters combat drills and self defense drills

See, this I have a problem with. In real combat, they'll fight against men, so for close quarters combat and self defense drills, they should also practice against men.

[Ntwadumela]

The women who choose combat will regret that decision terribly if captured by the enemy.

<staff edit>

The smart women will choose to perform non-combat roles in the military.

[Jumbo]

The women who choose combat will regret that decision terribly if captured by the enemy.

<staff edit>

The smart women will choose to perform non-combat roles in the military.

While editing this idiot's latest rule violating burble, my spidey sense went off and figured it was a dupe act and it was---:cool:

And of course, the loser shares at least one of the most common demographics noted by ES staff with 90% of these kind of repeating (often quite frothy) whackjob clowns over the years.

So "good job" to those internet warriors of that demographic (more than a few go seriously crazy or even postal in PMs and e-mails).

Your type reflect so well on all your causes :pfft: and must certainly be playing a notable role in the increasingly (and so well earned :evilg:) derisive caricature of "your side."

The staff often has fun with some of the nutterism and impotence so aptly displayed.

See ya next time, o embracer of no-life feebleness. < missing my grin smiley, terribly >

[killerbee99]

Your type reflect so well on all your causes :pfft: and must certainly be playing a notable role in the increasingly (and so well earned :evilg:) derisive caricature of "your side."

The staff often has fun with some of the nutterism and impotence so aptly displayed.

See ya next time, o embracer of no-life feebleness. < missing my grin smiley, terribly >

Bud light commercial tune...

"Real American Hero"

[Mr. Sinister]

Shot in the dark: It was Navy Dave

[Jumbo]

Shot in the dark: It was Navy Dave

No, and it's better not to play the guessing game for several reasons, even though that game is an understandable response to my post (and of course there are reasons for my making such posts).

Back to topic.

On which I'll say, it's done, things will be a work in progress, and I don't think we're going to go "backwards" soon in any of the social changes we've been seeing for many decades and are still occurring. Though one should never underestimate the seeming vagaries and variance of human behavior, individually or in a society. I'll take the optimistic view that intelligent people will oversee the matter in a way that will result in it being more of a positive than a negative in the end. I recently talked to some of the people I've worked with from JBLM and others in the area and they seem mainly good with it. Like here, some experienced combat folk are concerned and some aren't worried. I expect turbulence along the way with any significant policy changes in any institution as large and diverse as our military.

[wysknz1]

I find it interesting that the same week this happened one of the female X-gamers says she thinks women should have a different course because the one for the men is too big, too physically demanding for their weaker bodies. Not taking sides here, just relaying info.

[twa]

I find it interesting that the same week this happened one of the female X-gamers says she thinks women should have a different course because the one for the men is too big, too physically demanding for their weaker bodies. Not taking sides here, just relaying info.

It will be interesting to watch which standards are considered essential.

I'm on the womens side on equal opportunity, but the military's capabilities are more important.....a balance can be found imo

[Redskins Diehard]

I agree that there should be some common standards. We should be completely honest and acknowledge that there is not one universal standard for members of a light infantry platoon now. At least in the Army there is already a different physical scale based on age.

With respect to the 240 gunner argument...at least in my experience in both mech and light infantry units not every guy in the unit was cut out to be a member of the machine gun team. Those assignments are typically reserved for the more physical of the unit members.

But most of this discussion seems to be focused on the light infantry world. I will be surprised if the 11 series MOS in the Army is opened up to women under this new policy. I wouldn't be shocked if armor positions were opened up. I also would not be surprised if some positions in combat arms battalions are opened up to women....medics, cooks, radio operators, S1, S2, etc. At least in the two most recent wars we were involved in those folks were no more or less "on the front lines" than a member of some theater support transportation company. In fact, in Iraq at least the female truck drivers going up and down MSR Tampa or ASR Sue saw a lot more combat than our Ranger qualified BN S1.

I don't see Ranger school opening up right now. That has been something that has been "rumored" for as long as I can remember. It is one of those places where everyone is held to the same PT standard regardless of age, rank, MOS etc. When it does happen they will need to take a group of stud women(10% of a class or so) and put them in there at the same time.

I think a statistical analysis would show that the top 10% of women do not have the same physical strength, speed, etc as the top 10% of men. But I think the top 10% of women are probably every bit as physical as the middle of the pack guys. We took females on every single mission in Afghanistan back in 2002. It takes a lot to earn the respect of a parachute infantry battalion and there were 2 particular women that accomplished just that. One was a E5 MP, the other 1LT engineer. Both of them were essentially members of our battalion....even if it wasn't official policy. They lived with us in the FOB, they rehearsed with us for missions, they carried the same combat load as their male counterparts, and they actually probably led the battalion in missions conducted. They went with every company.

[DC9]

With respect to the 240 gunner argument...at least in my experience in both mech and light infantry units not every guy in the unit was cut out to be a member of the machine gun team. Those assignments are typically reserved for the more physical of the unit members.

Hahaha. I remember when we got new guys we used to have "drafts" where we could trade picks and even current members of your team and squad. Just like in the NBA (for the most part), the big kid always went first because he was going to be your 240 gunner. He knew it too. Throughout training, all of his drill sergeants and RIP cadre would look at him and laugh... and they'd all tell him "We know what you're going to do."

Problem was, it was hard to get a smart cat that was that big. They happened, but not all of the time. I remember right before I moved out here we got a division one quarterback from like New Mexico or New Mexico State or somewhere in the Southwest who had made it through RASP. I thought to myself... This dudes a quarterback, he may be the first really smart 240 gunner in the history of the Ranger Regiment... so I pulled a Jon Gruden and asked him to give me a play call. I was like, "Say we were in the huddle, and I told you to run some kind of wide reciever screen, what would you tell me?" I don't know if it was nerves or if he was being honest or what, but he was like "Gun right, wide reciever screen." I started laughing and was like "Are you being some kind of a smart ass or were you not a quarterback?" No, he was really a quarterback, showed me pics online and everything, but that's where we are these days.

But I digress. To your point, yes, it's normally the big Ox that gets that job and typically that Ox needs to be trained all day every other day. If that Ox misses a training session, he forgets everything you've already taught him, lol.

Good times, thanks for bringing that up, I'd almost forgotten that story.

[SemperFi Skins]

Hahaha. I remember when we got new guys we used to have "drafts" where we could trade picks and even current members of your team and squad. Just like in the NBA (for the most part), the big kid always went first because he was going to be your 240 gunner. He knew it too. Throughout training, all of his drill sergeants and RIP cadre would look at him and laugh... and they'd all tell him "We know what you're going to do."

Problem was, it was hard to get a smart cat that was that big. They happened, but not all of the time. I remember right before I moved out here we got a division one quarterback from like New Mexico or New Mexico State or somewhere in the Southwest who had made it through RASP. I thought to myself... This dudes a quarterback, he may be the first really smart 240 gunner in the history of the Ranger Regiment... so I pulled a Jon Gruden and asked him to give me a play call. I was like, "Say we were in the huddle, and I told you to run some kind of wide reciever screen, what would you tell me?" I don't know if it was nerves or if he was being honest or what, but he was like "Gun right, wide reciever screen." I started laughing and was like "Are you being some kind of a smart ass or were you not a quarterback?" No, he was really a quarterback, showed me pics online and everything, but that's where we are these days.

But I digress. To your point, yes, it's normally the big Ox that gets that job and typically that Ox needs to be trained all day every other day. If that Ox misses a training session, he forgets everything you've already taught him, lol.

Good times, thanks for bringing that up, I'd almost forgotten that story.

I was a 240 gunner, but I am far from an Ox... I think that's why it took such a large toll on my body. Normally I carried the 240 while someone on my fire team carried the extra barrel.

Not really sure how I got assigned as the heavy gunner but I loved every minute of it.

[Redskins Diehard]

I was a 240 gunner, but I am far from an Ox... I think that's why it took such a large toll on my body. Normally I carried the 240 while someone on my fire team carried the extra barrel.

Not really sure how I got assigned as the heavy gunner but I loved every minute of it.

In my experience it hasn't ALWAYS been the biggest guy to get the gun. But it was never the smallest(unless it was some sort of "remedial training" if you know what I mean). You also bring up a good point about spreading the combat load. There is individual equipment which everyone must carry on their own. But some more platoon/company load type equipment that is typically spread across the unit. Everyone needs to carry their share...but again in my experience not everyone's share was the same.

[DC9]

In my experience it hasn't ALWAYS been the biggest guy to get the gun. But it was never the smallest(unless it was some sort of "remedial training" if you know what I mean). You also bring up a good point about spreading the combat load. There is individual equipment which everyone must carry on their own. But some more platoon/company load type equipment that is typically spread across the unit. Everyone needs to carry their share...but again in my experience not everyone's share was the same.

You haven't lived unless you've jumped with a mortar plate... and you aren't an 11C.

---------- Post added January-28th-2013 at 11:10 AM ----------

I was a 240 gunner, but I am far from an Ox... I think that's why it took such a large toll on my body. Normally I carried the 240 while someone on my fire team carried the extra barrel.

Not really sure how I got assigned as the heavy gunner but I loved every minute of it.

Some guys loved Weapons Squad, some guys hated it, lol. I remember the baddest 240 gunner I ever met was short (about 5'6") but build like a brick **** house. Probably weighed about 230lbs and he looked like a barrell. He was so happy when the MK 48 came out, lol. But he loved his hog and he was an excellent shot to boot. His WSL never had to get on him about anything.

[SemperFi Skins]

You haven't lived unless you've jumped with a mortar plate... and you aren't an 11C.

---------- Post added January-28th-2013 at 11:10 AM ----------

Some guys loved Weapons Squad, some guys hated it, lol. I remember the baddest 240 gunner I ever met was short (about 5'6") but build like a brick **** house. Probably weighed about 230lbs and he looked like a barrell. He was so happy when the MK 48 came out, lol. But he loved his hog and he was an excellent shot to boot. His WSL never had to get on him about anything.

I'm thinking that's where it came from for me... They wanted me to go back to P.I. to be a Primary Marksmanship Instructor. I would have done it but I didn't want to play the whole D.I. role with it.

I'm not a big guy but I can tell you i've never fallen out of a hump... It was shame to see some of the "athletic freaks" and "gym rats" who couldn't hump when they were only carrying their M16 and a ruck...

Lastly, I think my eyes turn red when I hear someone say "clip." Does it not drive you guys B-A-N-A-N-A-S when you hear that?

[DC9]

Lastly, I think my eyes turn red when I hear someone say "clip." Does it not drive you guys B-A-N-A-N-A-S when you hear that?

In the "Regular Army" it's magazine and a weapon is a weapon, lol. When I got into the Rangers, it was "clip" or "mag" and "gun", "gat", "insert stripper's name here" lol. But I know what you mean.

[SemperFi Skins]

In the "Regular Army" it's magazine and a weapon is a weapon, lol. When I got into the Rangers, it was "clip" or "mag" and "gun", "gat", "insert stripper's name here" lol. But I know what you mean.

I think it's more 'street gurus' who claim to be gun experts and have never actually put on a uniform... In combat it's more just about give me something with some mother ****ing bullets in it

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Will every man be able to do this? The woman isn't going to make it through the training if she can't do this.

That's my take on this. All these anecdotal examples are certainly important and relevant. However, some are making the huge assumption that less qualified women will be allowed to serve in place of more qualified men. Has that been determined? If that's how it goes, I'd be pretty annoyed since, in the words of Jack Nicholson, we will have weakened a nation. But I really can't see that they'd allow that.

So, if all things are equal physically and the person next to you happens to be a woman, I'm fine with it. I think the camaraderie aspect is important, but I don't see why that can't be developed with a woman.