To Flu Shot or not to flu shot

[pjfootballer]

I'm all for coming up with natural cures. My doctor wanted me to be on medication to reduce the risk of gout which I've had. I didn't want to take a daily pill, so I do my research and I now have a steady diet of drinking 100% cranberry juice (not the 10% fruit juice crap) either daily or every other day. Knock on wood, but I haven't had an attack in over 4 years. Plus, I watch my diet and stay away from foods high in Purines.

But recently I've had bronchitis. I'm over the worst part, but my chest is still wheezing a bit and I can't seem to shake it. I'd like for my body to fight it, but I've been sick for almost 2 weeks. I'm thinking about going back to the urgent care center for a follow up to see if I can take something to help my body fight the rest of this off.

I believe this country is over medicated, however, I don't have a problem with people taking medications. I also have high BP and Cholesterol. My doctor wanted me to take 2 pills. I asked him to let me try Caduet (2 in one pill) and have been on it for about 5 years. No side effects, liver looks good. I go to him twice a year for checkups and full executive panel labs. Difference is, I only have to take 1 pill instead of 2.

I hated seeing my grandfather carrying around a bag of pills. He must have been taking 12-20 pills a day. He had congestive heart failure and emphazema. I vowed I wouldn't be carrying around a bag of pills. A few is OK, not a handful.

[Corcaigh]

Hold on, I never said we should discard medical science in its entirety. It certainly has value.

But not medical science regarding obesity or smoking risks?

[Die Hard]

But not medical science regarding obesity or smoking risks?

Of course. I was being sarcastic in that post.

---------- Post added January-9th-2013 at 11:24 AM ----------

Of course. I was being sarcastic in that post.

Allopathic medicine looks at micro-organisms as an entity of disease. Osteopathy looks at improving the health of the host.

Osteopathy is based on basic anatomical and physiological and mechanical principles -- shared truths by all medical models. It`s just viewed from a different lens.

[PeterMP]

`One of the great triumphs of medical science is said to involve the eradication of smallpox. The fact that it was in decline before mass vaccination was instituted is conveniently forgotten, as are many cases of fully immunized individuals contracting the disease. Dr. Glen Dettmen (Health Consciousness, October 1986): `It is pathetic and ludicrous to say we vanquished smallpox with vaccines, when only 10 percent of the population were ever vaccinated.

Many diseases come in waves. That's why people talk about epidemics.

Small pox appears to be very old and it has "come" and "gone" several times in recorded history.

Samething with polio.

From an evolutionary stand point that isn't surprising.

The disease kills or greatly debiliatates most of the people that are extremely susceptible to it. It then lingers in another host, the environment, or even as a very minor disease.

Then over time, much of the population loses its immunity (whether that immunity is geneitc, epigenetic, or immunological and that takes years or generations) or the causing organism mutates.

And the cycle starts all over again.

Most vaccines for diseases were developed during an epidemic. The epidemic caused the pressure to create the vaccine (people don't generally worry about diseases that aren't bad public health threats), but these diseases are very old, and at different times there have been different waves of epidemics. There is no reason to believe that the lastest epidemic (the one where the vaccine was produced) would be a final epidemic.

[Die Hard]

There is no reason to believe that the lastest epidemic (the one where the vaccine was produced) would be a final epidemic.

Agreed. You said nothing in your reply that I disagree with.

The people that are susceptible to it are the young and elderly and those that are compromised in health (ie. this is a large spectrum in itself). It very rarely hits people with strong vitality. But what contributes to vitality.

Now we have to look at consistent sleep patterns, quantity of sleep, dietary concerns, pyschological perspectives (stress causes a physiological response which weakens immune system, physical environment (a lot of these pathogens cannot live in direct sunlight.. so people need to get out doors and get fresh air.... which is what we don`t do in winter months), we also have different physical environments now... where people are crammed in small quarters and pathogens can spread more freely than back in the rural days... what about hygiene and sanitation (as contributors to disease)... what about your activities of daily living, hobbies, work... working long hours, not moving (lack of exercise) and lack of blood flow, what does that do for breathing patterns and flow of bodily fluids, bad posture, bad habits, etc. etc. etc.

Unfortunately, we live by the law of simplicity. We think a disease requires the same treatment for everybody. We want it wrapped up in 1 blue pill. You have cancer... great, here is the cancer pill.

What this does is show an absolutely lack of understanding and appreciate of health and disease. Which is why no single treatment works for everybody. Each is an entity unto it`s own and requires individualized treatment. But the blue pill is SO simple though!!!!

[PeterMP]

This one`s for PeterMP... and the etiology of cancer. Again, we`re going back to the physical environment... in this case internally. We`re talking about blood and interstitial fluid now. It`s not heredity or genetics.

I think you posted this in the wrong thread, but the Warburg effect is genetic at its heart in all known cases.

A cell can't just switch to anerobic metabolism because it wants to (in fact in most cells the cell will undergo a process called apotopsis and kill itself in prolonged situations).

There is an important protein for the anerobic metabolism called pyruvate kinase (PK). It comes in different forms. Most cancer cells have what is called the PK-M2 form, which allows them to do what they do in terms of anerobic metabolism.

The PK-M2 forms is caused by the protein interacting with the proteins that cause cancer (oncoproteins).

Oncoproteins are proteins that can cause cancer, but in most cases there has to be a mutation at the DNA level (i.e. a genetic change).

There are other cases where the citric acid cycle, which is requried for aerboic metabolism (non-anerobic metabolism) becomes shut down. This then forces the cells into anerboic metabolism. The net effect is the same. The change though is not directly related to environomental changes or changes in the citric acid cycle. A protein that regulates a protein that regulates whether the proteins in the citric acid cycle is are made is changed. The change is a mutation in the first protein (or something even up stream of that), and the change in the citric cycle is the result of the DNA for the citric acid cycle enzymes is less active (i.e. the transcription of the genes in the citric acid cycle are changed) in terms of the amounts of protein being produced.

So while on one level Warburg was right and the anerobic metabolism nature of cancer is important for the formation of cancer, he was wrong about the real underlying cause (cellular environoment vs. genetic).

If you are practicing medicine, hopefully, you aren't basing a lot of it on 1930's science.

---------- Post added January-9th-2013 at 11:51 AM ----------

Agreed. You said nothing in your reply that I disagree with.

The people that are susceptible to it are the young and elderly and those that are compromised in health (ie. this is a large spectrum in itself). It very rarely hits people with strong vitality. But what contributes to vitality.

Now we have to look at consistent sleep patterns, quantity of sleep, dietary concerns, pyschological perspectives (stress causes a physiological response which weakens immune system, physical environment (a lot of these pathogens cannot live in direct sunlight.. so people need to get out doors and get fresh air.... which is what we don`t do in winter months), we also have different physical environments now... where people are crammed in small quarters and pathogens can spread more freely than back in the rural days... what about hygiene and sanitation (as contributors to disease)... what about your activities of daily living, hobbies, work... working long hours, not moving (lack of exercise) and lack of blood flow, what does that do for breathing patterns and flow of bodily fluids, bad posture, bad habits, etc. etc. etc.

Unfortunately, we live by the law of simplicity. We think a disease requires the same treatment for everybody. We want it wrapped up in 1 blue pill. You have cancer... great, here is the cancer pill.

What this does is show an absolutely lack of understanding and appreciate of health and disease. Which is why no single treatment works for everybody. Each is an entity unto it`s own and requires individualized treatment. But the blue pill is SO simple though!!!!

1. Then I'm not sure of what the point of your previous post was. With the use of a vaccination program, do you no think in a country in the US, it is possible to eliminate small pox? Do you not think that vaccine played an important role in its current status in the US?

2. I've written here many times on the issues of what I call cookie cutter medicine, but that wouldn't seem to mean to me that we can't have more individualized care and have vaccinations be an important part of that.

[Die Hard]

Oncoproteins are proteins that can cause cancer, but in most cases there has to be a mutation at the DNA level (i.e. a genetic change).

So while on one level Warburg was right and the anerobic metabolism nature of cancer is important for the formation of cancer, he was wrong about the real underlying cause (cellular environoment vs. genetic).

Ok, I believe I misunderstood your original mention of genetics. With that being said, we are in agreement there.

Granted, as I`ve said before, there are 3 causes of disease. Assuming one isn`t borne with congenital or hereditary dysfunction -- and we`re ruling out trauma here as an etiology for cancer -- then this is a degenerative process.

As you mentioned, what would be the impetus for a normal healthy cell to mutate at the DNA level (ie. genetics) if not for it`s physical environment. A living mechanism is a dynamic mechanism - it responds to stimulus. What`s the stimulus for cells that would cause a mutation.

---------- Post added January-9th-2013 at 12:07 PM ----------

1. Then I'm not sure of what the point of your previous post was. With the use of a vaccination program, do you no think in a country in the US, it is possible to eliminate small pox? Do you not think that vaccine played an important role in its current status in the US?

2. I've written here many times on the issues of what I call cookie cutter medicine, but that wouldn't seem to mean to me that we can't have more individualized care and have vaccinations be an important part of that.

(1) I wrote on this previously. 10% of the population was vaccinated for small pox. That`s an insanely low number to be beating your chest that vaccination is solely responsible for its eradication.

I think there`s a higher correlation with people that have red automobiles and didn`t get small pox. Perhaps that attributed more to it.

(2) think vaccination can be a part of the care.... but only in people that are compromised and don`t have other means (proper shelter, good food, etc). But an important part, no.

[PeterMP]

Ok, I believe I misunderstood your original mention of genetics. With that being said, we are in agreement there.

Granted, as I`ve said before, there are 3 causes of disease. Assuming one isn`t borne with congenital or hereditary dysfunction -- and we`re ruling out trauma here as an etiology for cancer -- then this is a degenerative process.

As you mentioned, what would be the impetus for a normal healthy cell to mutate at the DNA level (ie. genetics) if not for it`s physical environment. A living mechanism is a dynamic mechanism - it responds to stimulus. What`s the stimulus for cells that would cause a mutation.

---------- Post added January-9th-2013 at 12:07 PM ----------

(1) I wrote on this previously. 10% of the population was vaccinated for small pox. That`s an insanely low number to be beating your chest that vaccination is solely responsible for its eradication.

I think there`s a higher correlation with people that have red automobiles and didn`t get small pox. Perhaps that attributed more to it.

(2) think vaccination can be a part of the care.... but only in people that are compromised and don`t have other means (proper shelter, good food, etc). But an important part, no.

Your acting like 10% of the population was randomly vaccinated.

That wasn't the case. If essentially all of your adult population is immune or resistant, there is a huge chunk of your population you don't have to vaccinate.

And then because of geographic issues (especially at the time because long scale travel and migration was less common), you can rule out vaccinating other people because the disease isn't going to be present at their local and they aren't likely to move where it is (and if they do, you vaccinate).

[Special K]

Myself, I am anti-vaccination :-) On all accounts. I believe the only time pharmaceuticals should ever be administered are for heroic measures -- when the body is unable to heal itself and it`s the difference between life and death.

Granted, I`m enrolled in the study of Osteopathy... so I have a very strong bias. Take that for what it`s worth. I spend every waking and free minute studying health and disease.... and I`ve dedicated my life to it. It`s my passion. With that being said, I`m just not inclined to give justifications to everybody on my belief systems. I`ve already invested too much.. I`m not just going to give it away to people who wish to argue for the sake of arguing

Actually, wasn't trying to start an argument. Just genuinely curious (as per my usual) about viewpoints I don't know much about

I remember your background was in osteopathy, so I just wanted to hear your thoughts on vaccinations since you posted some studies and articles.

For the record, I did my graduate education in public health...so obviously I am very biased as well, just in the opposite direction

[Stadium-Armory]

My wife told me that her friend was fired yesterday for not getting a flu shot. The friend works at our local rec center in the senior program. Seems strange to me.

[Skinz4Life12]

glad I got mine. people are coming down sick left and right around me at work. last thing I need is the flu before I hit the Caribbean in two days

[Botched]

I never get one. The flu knows better than to **** with me.

[S.T.real,lights,out]

Welp the GF just got it (flu) so its just a matter of time till i get it now...

---------- Post added January-10th-2013 at 03:34 PM ----------

glad I got mine. people are coming down sick left and right around me at work. last thing I need is the flu before I hit the Caribbean in two days

Nice, where you going? Going on a West Caribbean cruise in a few weeks. Cant wait

[Skinz4Life12]

Welp the GF just got it (flu) so its just a matter of time till i get it now...

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6cro3QVqW1rna86e.gif

---------- Post added January-10th-2013 at 03:34 PM ----------

Nice, where you going? Going on a West Caribbean cruise in a few weeks. Cant wait

St Thomas USVI. Maybe I'll bump into Kool Blue while I'm there. He lives on St. Croix though

[skinsfan07]

I haven't gotten a flu shot, and won't. If you don't want the flu, than make sure that you live a healthy lifestyle and eat foods that help your immune system. So simple. 2 of the 3 employees I work with have gotten it, and 1 got it from his wife, and the other doesn't eat healthy at all. Meanwhile I drink Green tea and detox tea everyday at work and eat hella fruits and veggies. **** a flu shot.

[twa]

My wife told me that her friend was fired yesterday for not getting a flu shot. The friend works at our local rec center in the senior program. Seems strange to me.

could be considered endangering her charges(which are a vulnerable group to the flu)

i have heard of nurses being fired for refusing

[Special K]

Whelp, my whole house just got taken down for the count with the flu the yesterday and today. Just got back from the pharmacy with a boatload of Tamiflu for everyone.

Definitely waaaaaay less expensive to "chance" it with the vaccine and hope that the experts guessed the right strains than go to the pharmacy and have to get a ton of Tamiflu...GOOD LORDIE.

I got my vaccine back in early November and am fine, so far...thank goodness. Fingers crossed the strain they have is the strain going around the country and covered by the vaccine.