Fergasun Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 ArsTechnica: How a Supreme Court ruling may stop you from reselling just about anything On Monday, the US Supreme Court will hear arguments in a case that pits a major textbook publisher against Supap Kirtsaeng, a student-entrepreneur who built a small business importing and selling textbooks. Like many Supreme Court cases, though, there's more than meets the eye. It's not merely a question of whether the Thai-born Kirtsaeng will have to cough up his profits as a copyright infringer; the case is a long-awaited rematch between content companies seeking to knock out the "first sale" doctrine on goods made abroad (not to mention their many opponents). That makes Wiley v. Kirtsaeng the highest-stakes intellectual property case of the year, if not the decade. It's not an exaggeration to say the outcome could affect the very notion of property ownership in the United States. Since most consumer electronics are manufactured outside the US and include copyrighted software in it, a loss for Kirtsaeng would mean copyright owners could tax, or even shut down, resales of everything from books to DVDs to cellphones....Without "first sale" doctrine in place, content companies would be allowed to control use of their goods forever. They could withhold permission for resale and possibly even library lending—or they could allow it, but only for an extra fee. It would have the wild effect of actually encouraging copyrighted goods to be manufactured offshore, since that would lead to much further-reaching powers. "When we purchase something, we assume it's ours," said Overstock.com general counsel Mark Griffin. "What is proposed by [the content companies] is that we change the fundamental notion of ownership rights."This case was argued in front of the Supreme Court yesterday. Hard to tell what each judge was thinking; Breyer brought up the example of someone wanting to sell their Toyota after it was made in Japan and having to get clearance from all the copyright owners (GPS system, sound system, etc.). I don't think what this guy did should have been illegal; and I don't think companies should be allowed to control what happens after they sell their cheap goods in China, India, overseas, etc. Their text about "only for sale in Europe, Asia and Africa" should have been ignored and everyone should have laughed at the original case instead of taken it "very seriously". The same thing about folks who hack their Playstation, etc (of course that deals with DCMA, another stupid layer of confusion Congress has added). But don't worry; our awesome Congress will come in and save the day when the Supreme Court completely obliterates the first-sale doctrine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Hmmm, let's see. A little guy against a coalition of mega corporations. Wonder which way they rule? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madison Redskin Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Hmmm ... interesting case. I haven't read enough about this case (or thought enough about the issues it implicates) to say how I feel. However, a part of me thinks, if the owners of copyrighted works want to place restrictions on use, why shouldn't they be able to do so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 The Yard Sale division of the local police is about to get a huge funding boost. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Hmmm, let's see. A little guy against a coalition of mega corporations. Wonder which way they rule? This sounds about right. I wonder which justices will be receiving gifts this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enter Apotheosis Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Hmmm, let's see. A little guy against a coalition of mega corporations. Wonder which way they rule? The little guy in this case has a few mega corporations with a vested in interest in him being victorious as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCClybun Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 The little guy in this case has a few mega corporations with a vested in interest in him being victorious as well. Is one of the GameStop? If not, one of them should definitely be GameStop, or their whole business model with implode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enter Apotheosis Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Is one of the GameStop?If not, one of them should definitely be GameStop, or their whole business model with implode. eBay is the real heavyweight in Kirtsaeng's corner by the sound of things but GameStop, Craigslist, Costco, WalMart, etc. all benefit mightily from the reselling of used and/or gray market goods manufactured overseas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Doesn't this go back to the question of when buying something, are you really buying it, or just renting it? I know this issue came up last year with a video game, because the disc itself already had the extra footage on it(as opposed to the more well known method of having to download the extra content), but the intention was to charge folks to buy an "unlock key" to be able to access it at a later time, however, technology being the way it is, folks figured out how to crack the extra footage themselves without the unlock code, and then it became an issue of "Hey, I bought the disc, and once I do, if I want to screw around with the software on it, so be it" vs. "You bought it, but you don't really own it" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
21cents Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Wow that would be a big loss and put our economy in a worse state. No way should they win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
21cents Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Its funny how a textbook company is going with the suing. Text Book companies are the most selffish profit seeking companies out there. They dont care about students or the materials they put they purposely change editions every semester and bribe schools to change text books. I would love to see a non-profit organization start publishing text books for colleges. Its not even about the education anymore. Their purpose is to take every dime they can get and change the books purposely to keep students from buying discounted used books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 I assume stores like Gamestop make a huge portion of their profit based on the used market. Their trade-in values seem to drop every year, while they will turn around and sell a used copy for just under the price of a new game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
21cents Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 I assume stores like Gamestop make a huge portion of their profit based on the used market. Their trade-in values seem to drop every year, while they will turn around and sell a used copy for just under the price of a new game. Not only that, can you imagine used car dealerships? guns? medical equipment? houses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Yardsales will last as long as cash stays paper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Its funny how a textbook company is going with the suing. Text Book companies are the most selffish profit seeking companies out there. They dont care about students or the materials they put they purposely change editions every semester and bribe schools to change text books. I would love to see a non-profit organization start publishing text books for colleges. Its not even about the education anymore. Their purpose is to take every dime they can get and change the books purposely to keep students from buying discounted used books. While I agree that text book companies are for profit. I'm curious as to why/how you think they bribe schools to change books. I've always selected my own books w/o any pressure from anybody else. I've certainly NEVER heard of an adminstrator telling a professor what book or what edition they have to use. And other than a few pieces of candy and a few pens, I've never been given or offered anything from a publishing company (and these things are given by companeis that I don't even use any books for- now one of the sales ladies is aggressively pushing me to switch to her book, but she actually had the idea for students to review her book, and the students liked her book better so next year I'll switch books, I think). Every person I've known is very careful in selecting their books and the vast majority will actually shop around and to some level will sacrafice quality (in terms of the quality of the information covered in the book) for price if possible with the idea that they personally can make up the difference. Many people I know (including myself) will use an old edition of a book if possible. One of the classes I taught last year I purposely used an old edition of a book when the new when came out. That way the students didn't HAVE to buy a new book. This year, I moved to the new edition, but it was possible to buy used versions of the book so students had a choice. Realistically, at least in what I teach, the information changes so the book needs to change too. And sometimes things change to make the book better. For example, one of the things about the newer edition in the book I'm using now is there are a lot more problems at the end of the chapter. This means more problems for the students to work as practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergasun Posted October 31, 2012 Author Share Posted October 31, 2012 Doesn't this go back to the question of when buying something, are you really buying it, or just renting it?I know this issue came up last year with a video game, because the disc itself already had the extra footage on it(as opposed to the more well known method of having to download the extra content), but the intention was to charge folks to buy an "unlock key" to be able to access it at a later time, however, technology being the way it is, folks figured out how to crack the extra footage themselves without the unlock code, and then it became an issue of "Hey, I bought the disc, and once I do, if I want to screw around with the software on it, so be it" vs. "You bought it, but you don't really own it" The problem there is not copyright per se; it's the DCMA, which makes it illegal to break the copy protection. Sadly, nowaday's you don't "buy" anything; you are "obtaining and personal license with physical possession" that contains restrictions on how you can use the product, and those restrictions are enforced by the federal legal system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
21cents Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 While I agree that text book companies are for profit.I'm curious as to why/how you think they bribe schools to change books. I've always selected my own books w/o any pressure from anybody else. I've certainly NEVER heard of an adminstrator telling a professor what book or what edition they have to use. And other than a few pieces of candy and a few pens, I've never been given or offered anything from a publishing company (and these things are given by companeis that I don't even use any books for- now one of the sales ladies is aggressively pushing me to switch to her book, but she actually had the idea for students to review her book, and the students liked her book better so next year I'll switch books, I think). Every person I've known is very careful in selecting their books and the vast majority will actually shop around and to some level will sacrafice quality (in terms of the quality of the information covered in the book) for price if possible with the idea that they personally can make up the difference. Many people I know (including myself) will use an old edition of a book if possible. One of the classes I taught last year I purposely used an old edition of a book when the new when came out. That way the students didn't HAVE to buy a new book. This year, I moved to the new edition, but it was possible to buy used versions of the book so students had a choice. Realistically, at least in what I teach, the information changes so the book needs to change too. And sometimes things change to make the book better. For example, one of the things about the newer edition in the book I'm using now is there are a lot more problems at the end of the chapter. This means more problems for the students to work as practice. iam currently attending george mason. and i can tell you professors definitely tell you a specific edition or book to buy. Some tell you straight up how they dont care what you buy but school requires them to tell students a specific book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosher Ham Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 I have been of the mindset recently that textbooks should just be included as part of tuition. I think it is super crappy to have so many students/parents pay for this stuff on top of tuition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 iam currently attending george mason. and i can tell you professors definitely tell you a specific edition or book to buy. Some tell you straight up how they dont care what you buy but school requires them to tell students a specific book. That doesn't mean they were bribed. For every class I teach, I have to tell students what the book is. In fact, today, to help students, it is the law that the book has to be picked before the students register for classes. Two weeks ago I had to give my books for the Fall semester next year. But nobody gave me any money. No administrator said you have to use the newest edition of this book. I selected all on my own. Do you understand the concept of bribery? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
21cents Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 That doesn't mean they were bribed.For every class I teach, I have to tell students what the book is. In fact, today, to help students, it is the law that the book has to be picked before the students register for classes. Two weeks ago I had to give my books for the Fall semester next year. But nobody gave me any money. No administrator said you have to use the newest edition of this book. I selected all on my own. Do you understand the concept of bribery? I didnt mean it literally. The schools definitely do profit from new editions of books as their book store sells go up. Cause their really isnt any season why books keep getting new editions every other semester. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 I didnt mean it literally. The schools definitely do profit from new editions of books as their book store sells go up. Cause their really isnt any season why books keep getting new editions every other semester. 1. I'm not sure that is true. Today I can as easily buy a new book or a used book in the book store vs. elsewhere. Me switching to a new book doesn't mean the book store will necessarily make more money if everybody buys the new book from amazon or whereever else. Vice versa if I'm using a used book, if the book store sells the used book at a better rate then other places, the book store is going to make more money by me staying with the older book. 2. EVEN if it is true, that doesn't mean anbybody is being bribed or that anything nefarious is is happening with respect to professors changing the edition. Just because the book store gets more money doesn't mean I get more money, and nobody associated with the University is telling me that I have to up-date my book so the book store can make more money. IF your statement is true, for it to matter, there would have to be somebody in the administration telling individual faculty, you have to use this edition. I've NEVER heard of that. 3. Realistically, there is an incentive for Professors to keep the book the same. When the book is changed and they add or take out information figure numbers, page numbers, and problem numbers all change. I have to go through and change any of that information I'm giving to the students. I suspect if you have a professor that switches editions, in most (not all because some people are lazy and will switch editions and not really change the class), there is a reason for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 BTW, I've been holding out because of not wanting to derail the thread. But it looks like that happened around 10 posts ago, and nobody seems to want to talk about the thread.) But this is the first I've seen of anything implying that PeterMP actually teaches this science-y stuff. (Or, at least the first time it soaked in.) And I find it rather nice and interesting. And I've been thinking that maybe a new avatar is in order. (I hope you realize that this is a case of respectful ribbing, not an attempt at ridicule or some such.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sportjunkie07 Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Do you understand the concept of bribery? i agree with 21 on this one. and i have been told by school staff that monetary gain is achieved by continually using the new editions, though i have not investigated enough into how that occurs. the problem i have is that oftentimes you will need the newest edition when the last 5 editions are 97% the same but much cheaper. additionally, my teacher had to sign a waiver saying he would not show the solutions to our homework problems. that's the stupidest thing i've ever heard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 additionally, my teacher had to sign a waiver saying he would not show the solutions to our homework problems. that's the stupidest thing i've ever heard. That seems really shocking, to me. I was an engineering major, and the Common Wisdom in that major was that the problems at the end of the chapter were the only parts of the book you used. (And, Wisdom had it, the only part that the publishers change, when they create new editions every few years.) In fact, some of my classes consisted of two, one-hour lectures with the professor, and a one-hour "lab" which consisted of a grad student who helped people with the homework. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 i agree with 21 on this one. and i have been told by school staff that monetary gain is achieved by continually using the new editions, though i have not investigated enough into how that occurs.the problem i have is that oftentimes you will need the newest edition when the last 5 editions are 97% the same but much cheaper. additionally, my teacher had to sign a waiver saying he would not show the solutions to our homework problems. that's the stupidest thing i've ever heard. It is possible that the school, through the book store, is making more money through new editions. I don't have any knowledge that is absolutely true, and I'd guess it depends on the book, the subject, and the students (how and where they get their books). But that's essentially irrelevant UNLESS the school is also telling professors they have to up date to the next book, which I've never heard of. Many times the books are very similar. As a teacher, it is part of the job to determine if the change in the information is relevant enough to go to the new edition. Again, from the teacher's perspective, there is frequently reasons to keep using the old textbook if it is reasonable to do so. Lastly, I suspect your teacher lied to you about the homework problems. I've NEVER heard of that and couldn't find that on google. I suspect that he/she has for some other reason to not show you the solutions and made up an excuse. Can I ask, what textbook is it that supposedly required this waiver to be signed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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