BBC: Where child sacrifice is a business

[sportjunkie07]

4 horseman

Revelations is so interesting!

[Chicken Fried]

except that it directly answers your question.

I'm spewing hostility to the guy who feels it necessary to push a faith issue in a place it isnt relevant.

If i were spewing hostility for faith in God, I would not have complimented ASF on the next page. ASF spent a good deal of time in this thread discussing THIS issue through the view of his faith, and I praised him for what he had to say.

You know why?

because his religious statements kept on track of the discussion, made sense in context of the discussion, and did not attempt to hijack the thread. He dropped some wisdom in here.

If the abortion debate was relevant, I'd never have popped off. But since it isn't, it's annoying to have to put up with the tunnel visioned thumping.

Typically, I stay out of religious threads.. you rarely ever see me make a post in them. Know why?

because I respect people's beliefs, and I respect a lot of people in here who hold those beliefs.

And for me to step into one of those debates and exclaim that it's just the hooey I believe it is would accomplish two things.

1. it would offend people i respect. (including you)

2. It would set Techboy on my trail, and I don't have time to do all that reading.

~Bang

When you call faith in God "mumbo jumbo" and a bunch of "fairytales," that is not hostility directed at the poster who brought abortion into this debate. That is directed at those with faith, whether that was your intention or not. It doesn't matter if abortion was not relevant because there are other people who don't care why you say what you do, but more the fact that you say them. My problem is that you can't pick and choose when to show respect based on who you're talking to. This is a public forum. That being said, we are clearly at opposite ends of the spectrum on most everything haha, but I do respect you and know you don't mean to come across the way I interpreted it. That's all.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Revelation is so interesting!

Indeed it is, we just finished a seven month study though the book, a study I called "Revelation: John's Ode to Joy", I recorded all of the sessions and I hope to get it published next year.

*btw, fixed the typo...sorry just a pet peeve of mine.

---------- Post added October-14th-2011 at 02:35 PM ----------

When you call faith in God "mumbo jumbo" and a bunch of "fairytales," that is not hostility directed at the poster who brought abortion into this debate. That is directed at those with faith, whether that was your intention or not. It doesn't matter if abortion was not relevant because there are other people who don't care why you say what you do, but more the fact that you say them. My problem is that you can't pick and choose when to show respect based on who you're talking to. This is a public forum. That being said, we are clearly at opposite ends of the spectrum on most everything haha, but I do respect you and know you don't mean to come across the way I interpreted it. That's all.

Let it go.

[Bang]

When you call faith in God "mumbo jumbo" and a bunch of "fairytales," that is not hostility directed at the poster who brought abortion into this debate. That is directed at those with faith, whether that was your intention or not. It doesn't matter if abortion was not relevant because there are other people who don't care why you say what you do, but more the fact that you say them. My problem is that you can't pick and choose when to show respect based on who you're talking to. This is a public forum. That being said, we are clearly at opposite ends of the spectrum on most everything haha, but I do respect you and know you don't mean to come across the way I interpreted it. That's all.

Call it what you want. I told you what it is.

But, I'd say I'd be surprised if people didn't read a person's explanation and then immediately tell them what they really said.

It has happened to me a lot in this thread.

do you have anything to add to the topic?

No?

~Bang

---------- Post added October-14th-2011 at 06:59 PM ----------

Just shoot the witch doctors and the people who are paying them to murder children on sight.

And people say you don't have any good ideas....

~Bang

[Chicken Fried]

Call it what you want. I told you what it is.

But, I'd say I'd be surprised if people didn't read a person's explanation and then immediately tell them what they really said.

It has happened to me a lot in this thread.

Whatever.

do you have anything to add to the topic?

No?

As much as I would like to get involved, we can't be the world police anymore because it causes more problems than it fixes. For example, if we sent weapons to the locals, they'd end up in the warlords' hands and would actually exacerbate the problem. They're unfortunately going to have to deal with these barbarians themselves.

[Bang]

Whatever.

Right, why listen to me tell you what I meant. Obviously you know better than me.

As much as I would like to get involved, we can't be the world police anymore because it causes more problems than it fixes. For example, if we sent weapons to the locals, they'd end up in the warlords' hands and would actually exacerbate the problem. They're unfortunately going to have to deal with these barbarians themselves.

I don't want us to get involved,, I just wonder how to deal with the myriad problems that is Africa. Withcraft is only one of them.

~Bang

[AsburySkinsFan]

I don't want us to get involved,, I just wonder how to deal with the myriad problems that is Africa. Withcraft is only one of them.

~Bang

Yeah, I don't even know where to start there, education didn't work because all we did was educate people who became tyrants, technology didn't work because that just gave the tyrants new tools. It's not even the 3rd world in many parts over there, it's more like 4th and 5th.

[Special K]

OMG, how the hell did this turn into an abortion debate?

And comparing the witch doctors murdering children to televangelists?

No wonder we can't get **** done here in America. No one can focus on the issue at hand.

[AsburySkinsFan]

OMG, how the hell did this turn into an abortion debate?

And comparing the witch doctors murdering children to televangelists?

No wonder we can't get **** done here in America. No one can focus on the issue at hand.

What are you talking about, everyone knows that this is about militant vegetarianism!

[Riggo-toni]

Any word on how much these witchdoctors make and how much training is required for certification? Is it possible to get certified through an online course? I could really use a few extra skills on my resume in this economy.

[Special K]

I don't want us to get involved,, I just wonder how to deal with the myriad problems that is Africa. Withcraft is only one of them.

~Bang

I'd have to say, just from my experiences in different parts sub-Saharan Africa and Madagascar, witchcraft is one of the smaller of the problems on the scale of messed up-ness.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Any word on how much these witchdoctors make and how much training is required for certification? Is it possible to get certified through an online course? I could really use a few extra skills on my resume in this economy.

Email Goldman Sachs, I think the online course is required of their executives.

[Bang]

I'd have to say, just from my experiences in different parts sub-Saharan Africa and Madagascar, witchcraft is one of the smaller of the problems on the scale of messed up-ness.

Oh, I don't doubt it.

That just happens to be the topic of this thread. (And we're not on abortion. Hopefully that discussion can stay in it's own relevant places.)

Now, being ignorant of a lot of the reality beyond what I read in the news, I'd say the first step is education.

And on the other hand, there seems to be a great proclivity there for people to exploit weaker people. Starving them, slaughtering them, enslaving them.. it happens a lot in Africa.

Like i was tryng to explain, Africa is a drain on the rest of the world because of these problems. It affects every other nation on earth. (At least nations with a conscience.)

This is why I wondered how to deal with them. the real problems are bigger than my brain, and then add on top of it something as jaw dropping as child sacrifice, and I'm at a loss.

BTW, glad you dropped in this thread. Firsthand knowledge of the problems is welcome.

~Bang

[Chicken Fried]

I don't want us to get involved,, I just wonder how to deal with the myriad problems that is Africa. Withcraft is only one of them.

~Bang

We don't deal with their problems. That's exactly it - it's their problems, and we can't fix them for them. We've dumped billions of dollars into Africa, and I don't think it's really turned all that much around. Our money helps in the short term to build schools and hospitals, but the culture (or something) won't accept the new way of life to continue that change. It seems like every problem has its roots in the warlords, too.

[Bang]

We don't deal with their problems. That's exactly it - it's their problems, and we can't fix them for them. We've dumped billions of dollars into Africa, and I don't think it's really turned all that much around. Our money helps in the short term to build schools and hospitals, but the culture (or something) won't accept the new way of life to continue that change. It seems like every problem has its roots in the warlords, too.

Yeah, i get that,, but the fact is so long as Africa lags so far behind, it does hang an anchor around of the rest of the world.

The planet's a smaller and smaller place nowadays.

I don't think it's our responsibility as a country.. we definitely have our own problems we need to focus on first. But the continent has major problems that can't be ignored.

And you're right about the warlords.. this is why I wrote "tribal warfare" earlier on. Often that is where the allegiances come from that will allow one group to try and starve another group.

Not sure what to do.

~Bang

[Chicken Fried]

Yeah, i get that,, but the fact is so long as Africa lags so far behind, it does hang an anchor around of the rest of the world.

The planet's a smaller and smaller place nowadays.

I don't think it's our responsibility as a country.. we definitely have our own problems we need to focus on first. But the continent has major problems that can't be ignored.

And you're right about the warlords.. this is why I wrote "tribal warfare" earlier on. Often that is where the allegiances come from that will allow one group to try and starve another group.

Not sure what to do.

~Bang

You may be right, but in what specific ways does Africa hold the rest of the world back?

[Special K]

Oh, I don't doubt it.

That just happens to be the topic of this thread. (And we're not on abortion. Hopefully that discussion can stay in it's own relevant places.)

Now, being ignorant of a lot of the reality beyond what I read in the news, I'd say the first step is education.

And on the other hand, there seems to be a great proclivity there for people to exploit weaker people. Starving them, slaughtering them, enslaving them.. it happens a lot in Africa.

Like i was tryng to explain, Africa is a drain on the rest of the world because of these problems. It affects every other nation on earth. (At least nations with a conscience.)

This is why I wondered how to deal with them. the real problems are bigger than my brain, and then add on top of it something as jaw dropping as child sacrifice, and I'm at a loss.

BTW, glad you dropped in this thread. Firsthand knowledge of the problems is welcome.

~Bang

Yeah, it's a cluster and I wish I knew the answers.

You're right about education. However, there are several barriers to implementing effective educational programs (the USAID project I worked on in Madagascar had several components: sustainable farming, infrastructure, nutrition and basic health topics, and emergency preparedness, which was my specialty and where I worked). There are major cultural barriers to any program that is funded by American and European foreigners, there is a high level of mistrust dating back to European colonization. To put it simply, "those white people don't really want to help us, they have their own agenda"...which I can't say I completely blame them for that...

Lack of transportation infrastructure is another major problem. For example, when we'd travel out into the bush to meet with tribal elders, some roads were impassable, and villages could only be accessed by canoe, or motorbike, or hiking...or the roads would be so bad, it would take us 5 hours to drive 50 km to a village, meet with villagers for a couple hours, then drive 5 hours back to our secondary HQ. All before dark, because travelling after dark is extremely dangerous due to robberies, rogue bandits, or oh...corrupt government officials and soldiers.

It is also very hard dealing with a completely different mindset than we are accustomed to. For the most part, these are people who are living minute to minute. They don't care about any preventative health measures because is that going to help them fetch the water from the water source they have to walk 5k to everyday to get water? Their mindset is just completely different.

Another barrier, completely corrupt government officials who funnel government money into their personal accounts instead of building infrastructure for their people. Or giving government contracts out to whomever will pay them the most the most money (privately or under the table). Contractors who then are able to exert whatever agenda it is that they want for them to make the most profit for themselves.

It's nearly impossible to affect any type of substantial change when you're having coup d'etats every other week. Without any continuity at that level, programs and funding just come in and out. That was a big problem when I was in Madagascar.

Then you have revolutionary armies in several countries, like, say, the LRA, that are going around and just killing and raping people.

You have religious extremist movements where people are massacring people for ridiculous reasons. Homosexuals are being slaughtered in Uganda and other countries because of effed up religious beliefs that trended toward extremism and violence.

Not so much in Madagascar, but on the mainland, there is a discernably prevelant mindset that is violence IS life. Life means nothing, I'll just machete you or shoot you as easily as I bat my eyelashes at you. Some children are trained from a young age to just be violent killers. I can tell you, when I was in Zimbabwe in 2001, it was not uncommon at all to see kids and teenagers walking around with AKs. This was the time period when you had a corrupt Mugabe in charge and the land issue had reached a head and Mugabe's people were violently taking away white-owned farms and killing people.

With this type of instability, you have extremist groups coming in and gaining foothold. You have Al-Qaeda setting up camp and operating out of these destabilized areas.

So yeah, there are other issues, but those are the ones I've personally experienced and/or discussed with locals while working over there. I wish I knew the answers. I wish someone knew the answers. It's sad. I am very passionate about Africa. I love so many people I've met and worked with from different countries in Africa and am still close with or correspond with. The places I've lived in are incredible and the continent has so many natural resources. It's hard to watch the news and read these types of stories and realize that my idealism and my inner desire to "save the world" as my parents always say, isn't possible in reality. I mean, I just don't see realistic solutions...

[Bang]

You may be right, but in what specific ways does Africa hold the rest of the world back?

Uh, how about the billions of dollars sent there every year by country after country?

http://www.usaid.gov/policy/budget/money/

Count how much we send.

Think we could use that money?

And that is only from us. African aid comes from all around the world.

How about the diseases that come from there?

AIDS i do believe got it's start in Africa, as did Ebola and I'm sure plenty of others. Millions have died worldwide from these diseases.

How much humanitarian aid is sent in the form of food and medicine?

(Food becuase they are clueless about farming and destroy the land. Food because warlords try to starve entire populations.

Soldiers.. tons of them. Whether they're there to safeguard all the aid from the warlords or they're there to fight in wars.. there they are.

The human suffering can't be ignored by enlightened societies. There have been a great many efforts made over the decades to try and change education, try to broker peace.. to try to enforce peace.. try and retrieve ships from pirates.. How much do you think we spend in just patrolling the waters off Somalia for pirates?

Africa is a drain on the entire world.

~Bang

[AsburySkinsFan]

Africa is a drain on the entire world.

~Bang

Someone should make a cartoon about it.......:pokeye:

[Chicken Fried]

Uh, how about the billions of dollars sent there every year by country after country?

http://www.usaid.gov/policy/budget/money/

Count how much we send.

Think we could use that money?

And that is only from us. African aid comes from all around the world.

How about the diseases that come from there?

AIDS i do believe got it's start in Africa, as did Ebola and I'm sure plenty of others. Millions have died worldwide from these diseases.

How much humanitarian aid is sent in the form of food and medicine?

(Food becuase they are clueless about farming and destroy the land. Food because warlords try to starve entire populations.

Soldiers.. tons of them. Whether they're there to safeguard all the aid from the warlords or they're there to fight in wars.. there they are.

The human suffering can't be ignored by enlightened societies. There have been a great many efforts made over the decades to try and change education, try to broker peace.. to try to enforce peace.. try and retrieve ships from pirates.. How much do you think we spend in just patrolling the waters off Somalia for pirates?

Africa is a drain on the entire world.

~Bang

I'm well aware of all that. I thought you meant things out of our control. We can solve all of that drain on our country by forgetting it and keeping the money. It sounds cold hearted, but we can't keep doing this with our economy.

[Bang]

I'm well aware of all that. I thought you meant things out of our control. We can solve all of that drain on our country by forgetting it and keeping the money. It sounds cold hearted, but we can't keep doing this with our economy.

Ok, but you asked how they're a drain on the rest of the world.

that's how, and that is only scratching the surface.

~Bang

[Dan T.]

And on the other hand, there seems to be a great proclivity there for people to exploit weaker people. Starving them, slaughtering them, enslaving them.. it happens a lot in Africa.

Here's a solution. Arm the children. Then they can shoot any witch doctor in the face who tries to grab them for a sacrifice. (Not really a solution, but a nice revenge fantasy, no?)

[NavyDave]

Well Obama announced there will US troops on the ground there to take care of the Lord's Resistance army that kills, kidnaps women and children for the sex trade and forces young boys 11 to 14 to join his group oonly after he is trained to use a Ak 47 kill their family on the threat of being mutilated if they don't.

I have no problem with this if its done correctly.

[Bang]

Today we sent Special Forces to Uganda to try and stop rebel violence in Uganda, Congo, and South Sudan.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/10/14/obama-sends-us-troops-to-central-africa-to-aid-campaign-against-rebel-group/?test=latestnews

I don't have a problem with it, either, ND. You and I disagree on some things, but we definitely agree when it comes to handling animals like this.

~Bang

[NavyDave]

We agree more than we disagree, Bang, except when it comes to Soccer, attending the grand daughter's and niece's ballet or believing ketchup is a vegetable.