BBC: Where child sacrifice is a business

[AsburySkinsFan]

God gave us all that and how we use it is free will, correct?

I would say that to follow one's conscience is free will, but to have a conscience that convicts us is a grace that we cannot avoid...kinda like a nagging mother.

I asked first/ But I see where your going, and that is why I asked you,C/O, and as I said a sin is sin and I am not worthy to JUDGE a person who committed them as I am a sinner as well.

I know you asked first, what I'm just following the rabbinic tradition of question asking as response. Again, I'm not judging the person as if I am their eternal judge, but God gave us sense enough to be able to evaluate/judge the actions of man.

BTW, I enjoy our discourse, that may surprise you.

Likewise, I find these discussions completely engaging, and please excuse me if I'm a bit blunt at times it's part the full contact debating I like.

[SWFLSkins]

I would say that to follow one's conscience is free will, but to have a conscience that convicts us is a grace that we cannot avoid...kinda like a nagging mother.

I know you asked first, what I'm just following the rabbinic tradition of question asking as response. Again, I'm not judging the person as if I am their eternal judge, but God gave us sense enough to be able to evaluate/judge the actions of man.

Likewise, I find these discussions completely engaging, and please excuse me if I'm a bit blunt at times it's part the full contact debating I like.

You keep fighting the good fight that is good by me. I just don't know where I truly stand on taking anothers life in the name of justice, but I know when it comes to protecting children I would act before I had time to consider any consequences. One of my callings is to raise awareness of child abuse locally and I have not done nearly enough to serve God in that respect.

[AsburySkinsFan]

You keep fighting the good fight that is good by me. I just don't know where I truly stand on taking another's life in the name of justice, but I know when it comes to protecting children I would act before I had time to consider any consequences.

I am against the death penalty in all its forms, but like you if it came to an immediate moment of protecting someone would I take a life if it was needed? I don't know, but I think I probably would, but I believe that even in taking that life I had sinned, just like I would have sinned if I did not protect the life of the innocent...yeah both choices are sin, and I believe that is because the brokenness of sin in this world is so corrupting that it sometimes places us in impossible situations where to do "right" is to sin, if that makes sense.

One of my callings is to raise awareness of child abuse locally and I have not done nearly enough to serve God in that respect.

As is the calling of all Christians, and I believe all Christians would share your understanding that we have not done enough.

[SWFLSkins]

I am against the death penalty in all its forms, but like you if it came to an immediate moment of protecting someone would I take a life if it was needed? I don't know, but I think I probably would, but I believe that even in taking that life I had sinned, just like I would have sinned if I did not protect the life of the innocent...yeah both choices are sin, and I believe that is because the brokenness of sin in this world is so corrupting that it sometimes places us in impossible situations where to do "right" is to sin, if that makes sense.

As is the calling of all Christians, and I believe all Christians would share your understanding that we have not done enough.

Your first paragraph is the all time question.

We have had so many tragic stories here I can't even begin to comprehend the untold ones.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Your first paragraph is the all time question.

Indeed, I go with the thinking that the scenario discussed is one I will most likely never have to face, as such I can make certain stands against killing another even while reserving some ambiguity on the .1% of cases that fall into the very rare scenarios such as I described, as such I cannot allow the .1% of cases which are ambiguous to dictate the 99.9% of cases which are easy to evaluate.

We have had so many tragic stories here I can't even begin to comprehend the untold ones.

Indeed, very much the tip of the iceberg situations.

[Bang]

No one is absolving some of the blame of their own conditions from them. But you live in a bubble if you don't think at one time, the western world wasn't singing their current president's praises.

Uganda having human rights abuses has as much to do the entire continent of Africa as a war in Iraq has on the rest of Asia. It's such a gross projection. Africa isn't a neighborhood. Are you aware of how big the continent is? That's the problem with people that have no working knowledge of African affairs. You assume that somehow Uganda = Congo = South Africa = Burkina Faso = Egypt. These are distinct places, with distinct cultures and histories. Why stop at Africa? why not project it onto that entire region of the world? Europe is to the north and the Middle East is attached as well. David Koresh happened at the end of the 20th century in North America...bottomline there's crazy people worldwide.

And please stop the 'how do we deal with them?', rhetoric. We really don't. How impactful are Ugandan affairs on your daily existence? They don't have oil, they aren't a threat, and have little to no international affairs.

It seems more likely that these articles are to ridicule societies/cultures different from ourselves and draw a reaction, which is exactly what you are doing. What about the other 30+ million Ugandans that live 'normal' lives? That isn't newsworthy.

Interesting you assume that the only reason I'd want to deal with the Ugandans is for their oil, or if theyre a threat, or if they actually do anything on the world stage.

Actually, no, when i say that, I ask how do we deal with people like this as in, how do we change this world so there are no longer people who believe this crap to the point of paying other people to murder children.

But hey, if it helps to paint me as the Ugly American who only views other people as exploitable resources, be my guest. You're on a sanctimonious roll.. no need to slow down.

The only correlation I drew between all the various nations of Africa is that a whole hell of a lot of them have majorly serious problems. Whether it'sa tribal wars or religious wars or warlords starving whole populations... ah well, i repeat myself like it will matter.

You say there's 30 million other Ugandans living normal lives.. it says right in the article that there's more than 900 cases of this that have yet to be investigated.

900 ritual child murders and mutilations.

But you're probably right. the always sensatlional BBC is just trying to show how backwards all those people are so we can snicker at them. Damn their lack of journalistic integrity.

30 million Ugandans are living normal lives around a culture that is murdering children at a rate that has people alarmed.

30 million,, that is a little more than the population of Texas living in a country about the size of Minnesota.

I wonder how we'd react to 900 attacks on children in Texas or Minnesota? We'd probably be trying to figure out how to deal with such superstition that has people murdering children for good luck, don't you think?

You're right. Nothing to see here. Just another cigar chomping idiot American making fun of the backwards Africans.

:finger:

~Bang

[megared]

Interesting you assume that the only reason I'd want to deal with the Ugandans is for their oil, or if theyre a threat, or if they actually do anything on the world stage.

Actually, no, when i say that, I ask how do we deal with people like this as in, how do we change this world so there are no longer people who believe this crap to the point of paying other people to murder children.

But hey, if it helps to paint me as the Ugly American who only views other people as exploitable resources, be my guest. You're on a sanctimonious roll.. no need to slow down.

The only correlation I drew between all the various nations of Africa is that a whole hell of a lot of them have majorly serious problems. Whether it'sa tribal wars or religious wars or warlords starving whole populations... ah well, i repeat myself like it will matter.

You say there's 30 million other Ugandans living normal lives.. it says right in the article that there's more than 900 cases of this that have yet to be investigated.

900 ritual child murders and mutilations.

But you're probably right. the always sensatlional BBC is just trying to show how backwards all those people are so we can snicker at them. Damn their lack of journalistic integrity.

30 million Ugandans are living normal lives around a culture that is murdering children at a rate that has people alarmed.

30 million,, that is a little more than the population of Texas living in a country about the size of Minnesota.

I wonder how we'd react to 900 attacks on children in Texas or Minnesota? We'd probably be trying to figure out how to deal with such superstition that has people murdering children for good luck, don't you think?

You're right. Nothing to see here. Just another cigar chomping idiot American making fun of the backwards Africans.

:finger:

~Bang

Not even to necessarily direct the oil remark at you, but the only nations in Africa we have a vested interest in either have an abundance of oil, or natural resources. Rwanda had over a million people slaughtered without so much as a peep from us. Somalia's lawless state only became a problem when pirates emerged and started threatening foreign people and assets.

The article claims that there are 900 unreported cases..how does that somehow now equate to 900 confirmed cases? How can you take that estimate seriously? A guess to the amount of 'sacrifices' that went unreported. Isn't that slightly counterintuitive to you? And the way the 900 is mentioned doesn't give a time frame, which leads one to believe that that number could be over the course of a day, or over the amount of time they've been tracking the statistic (decades).

Do child abductions, killings, etc not occur here now? Not sure why the brunt of criticism is being directed at the continent instead of the reprehensible individuals that perform these atrocities, regardless of where they are. Your reaction plays into a myth that sensationalizes "Africa" as a barbaric place.

By the way, what the hell is a 'tribal' war anyways?

Uganda has 33.4 million people, over 8 million more than Texas. If you want to pretend like you'd somehow like to 'deal with' problems existing there, why not speak on the fact that 52% of their population's 'normal lives' consists of less than $1.25 a day? Don't you think that the level of poverty there and in other developing countries (not just in the continent of Africa) create conditions that foster these kinds of behaviors? That's the root of many of the symptoms, including this one, that you appear to be up in arms about. Eradicating a problem, as grotesque as it is, that affects (using this 900 figure you believe) 0.002% of the population fixes what in Uganda exactly?

Would you honestly sleep better knowing a place that you have no vested interest in now has eliminated a problem that you cared so much about, and had such a strong opinion on, that the extent of your concern consists of ****ing about it on a message board?

[Bang]

Not even to necessarily direct the oil remark at you, but the only nations in Africa we have a vested interest in either have an abundance of oil, or natural resources. Rwanda had over a million people slaughtered without so much as a peep from us. Somalia's lawless state only became a problem when pirates emerged and started threatening foreign people and assets.

The article claims that there are 900 unreported cases..how does that somehow now equate to 900 confirmed cases? How can you take that estimate seriously?

How can you dismiss it so casually?

Again, this is the BBC reporting this, not the Weekly World News or the National Enquirer.

A guess to the amount of 'sacrifices' that went unreported. Isn't that slightly counterintuitive to you? And the way the 900 is mentioned doesn't give a time frame, which leads one to believe that that number could be over the course of a day, or over the amount of time they've been tracking the statistic (decades).

Read the article. The 900 cases does stretch back. The two yearly surveys mentioned were 2008 and 2009 in which there were over 100. No number for 2010, but again, the BBC doesn't strike me as the type to go sensational on a story, and my impression of them as a news organization is that they dont' waste time unless something is there.

Do child abductions, killings, etc not occur here now? Not sure why the brunt of criticism is being directed at the continent instead of the reprehensible individuals that perform these atrocities, regardless of where they are. Your reaction plays into a myth that sensationalizes "Africa" as a barbaric place.

I told you why twice before. The continent is full of problems. Tons of problems. wars, famines, disease, lack of basic education, slavery.. .. hell, all four horsemen ride roughshod over that place. This atrocity is just another one to add to the list.

You want to know what i think when a kid is murdered here, find those threads and read what I say. that's the beauty of this place. You don't have to assume, you can look it up and save yourself the embarrassment.

By the way, what the hell is a 'tribal' war anyways?

The Hutus and Tutsis come to mind. How many were slaughtered in that episode?

Unless you'd rather not call that a tribal war, and just label it a genocide.. i can see how that makes Afrca more appealing.

War. tribal, religious, revolutionary, whatever. There's always some sort of war(s) going on in Africa. Always.

Yesterday at the Kenya / Somali border a bunch of aid workers trying to help refugees were kidnapped. (They probably just took them to Chuck E Cheese though, so it's likely OK.) Why did they do that? Because they were trying to save people from starvation... again.

One would almost conclude that someone else wants all those people to starve. AGAIN.

http://www.globalissues.org/issue/83/conflicts-in-africa

Read and learn.

Uganda has 33.4 million people, over 8 million more than Texas. If you want to pretend like you'd somehow like to 'deal with' problems existing there, why not speak on the fact that 52% of their population's 'normal lives' consists of less than $1.25 a day?

Because this thread isn't about them or their money. It is about the other 48% and how the belief in this superstituious nonsense are driving some of them to pay witch doctors to kidnap, mutilate, and murder children. Try to keep on track here.

Don't you think that the level of poverty there and in other developing countries (not just in the continent of Africa) create conditions that foster these kinds of behaviors? That's the root of many of the symptoms, including this one, that you appear to be up in arms about. Eradicating a problem, as grotesque as it is, that affects (using this 900 figure you believe) 0.002% of the population fixes what in Uganda exactly?

Well, maybe i'm wrong about this, but if the problem of witch doctors killing kids were stopped, well.. now, again, I'm no expert,, but it seems to me that ritual killings of children might... i don't know.. stop?

Poverty is a problem isn't it? When i say the continent is full of problems, that sort of falls under the umbrella. In fact, it's such a huge widespread problem that I felt it was a given. But you seem to need a detailed list of all the problems you already know exist. Don't hold your breath.

You're assuming that I am so stupid as to not know the root causes of so many problems. I do know them, and I know that there has been a lot of international effort to try and educate people in many parts of Africa and bring their standard of living up.

Would you honestly sleep better knowing a place that you have no vested interest in now has eliminated a problem that you cared so much about, and had such a strong opinion on, that the extent of your concern consists of ****ing about it on a message board?

What an arrogant ass you are. You want to know what I think about other problems, stop in the other threads about them. Read the title of this one and then ask yourself again why I'm in here talking about Africa.

How much aid do we send to African nations every year? How could we use that here?

Africa affects the whole world. It must progress. As i said at the outset.. the massive problems that beset the continent of Africa are a drain on everyone.

I repeat

:finger:

~Bang

[Ellis]

I can't even believe this is being debated on here... :mad:

[AsburySkinsFan]

I told you why. The continent is full of problems. Tons of problems. wars, famines, disease.. hell, all four horsemen ride roughshod over that place.

~Bang

Just a side note, I was really glad to see you use the understanding of the Four Horsemen in this way, that they are actually already riding, as this is exactly the sense in which they were written about by John, and not like some think that all the sudden we're going to look up and there they'll be as if they hadn't been here all along. Sorry, just made me happy to see this, and yes that does mean that I'm a Bible geek. :geek:

[China]

By the way, what the hell is a 'tribal' war anyways?

Tribal Wars

[Bang]

Just a side note, I was really glad to see you use the understanding of the Four Horsemen in this way, that they are actually already riding, as this is exactly the sense in which they were written about by John, and not like some think that all the sudden we're going to look up and there they'll be as if they hadn't been here all along. Sorry, just made me happy to see this, and yes that does mean that I'm a Bible geek. :geek:

Hey, I may not believe in God, but I listen.

And you're right. As a metaphor it's quite powerful and perfectly on point. All 4 of them (and probably a few of their buddies that John could not foresee) are having a high old time in Africa, and have been for quite a while.

~Bang

[AsburySkinsFan]

Hey, I may not believe in God, but I listen.

And you're right. As a metaphor it's quite powerful and perfectly on point. All 4 of them (and probably a few of their buddies that John could not foresee) are having a high old time in Africa, and have been for quite a while.

~Bang

Very much so, before Africa was called The Dark Continent because the West knew little about the interior of Africa, now it's The Dark Continent because of the brutality of it. And who would have ever thought that one of the horsemen would be an executive dressed in a $2,000 custom suit looking to exploit Africa of its natural resources?

---------- Post added October-14th-2011 at 10:05 AM ----------

By the way, what the hell is a 'tribal' war anyways?

A tribal war? Seriously, if you're going to try and have a serious discussion about what ails Africa and you don't know about the tribal warfare that has plagued that entire continent for decades then no one will take you serious.

[Ellis]

I'd like to hear an elaboration on the dark horsemen and who you think they are. (not actual names, of course. I realize you're referring to a type of person.)

[Chicken Fried]

Every time I read one of these posts that show me how superstitious the rest of the planet is, I wonder just how the hell the world is ever supposed to progress?

The only thing I see similar between the two is vast amounts of people believe in mumbo jumbo fairy tales.

~Bang

How is opposing abortion superstitious mumbo jumbo?

[AsburySkinsFan]

I'd like to hear an elaboration on the dark horsemen and who you think they are. (not actual names, of course. I realize you're referring to a type of person.)

The Biblical horsemen are not anyone in particular, they are instead representative of the trials that are known to humanity.

White Horse: Its rider had a bow; a crown was given to him, and he came out conquering and to conquer: Kings battling kings, conquest, nations at war.

Red Horse ; its rider was permitted to take peace from the earth, so that people would slaughter one another; great sword: violence of man against man (think about the stories the local evening news runs, murder, rape, etc, things that take away peace. This is often thought to be wars, but it's not this is the slaughter on an individual level.

Black Horse! Its rider held a pair of scales in his hand, "A quart of wheat for a day's pay, and three quarts of barley for a day's pay, but do not damage the olive oil and the wine!": This is economic upheaval and instability. The scales are not the scales of justice, they are instead the merchant's scales for the marketplace, and a quart of wheat for a day's pay is an extra ordinarily high price, as is the barley, notice that the luxuries are not touched, oil and wine, but the necessities wheat and barley are.

Pale green horse! Its rider's name was Death, and Hades followed with him; they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, famine, and pestilence, and by the wild animals of the earth.: This is death in general in all the other forms by which it comes.

I would put the guy in the suit on the black horse.

[Bang]

How is opposing abortion superstitious mumbo jumbo?

It's not

The God aspect is, IMO.

To me that part of it is no different than believing in magical witch doctors.

I have no problem with people who want to oppose it.. even if i don't agree. But when they talk about it in terms of being a sin against God.. well, that is where the superstition creeps in. Frankly, I don't see how this discussion fits with the abortion argument, which is why I dismissed the notion.

~Bang

[Chicken Fried]

It's not

The God aspect is, IMO.

To me that part of it is no different than believing in magical witch doctors.

I have no problem with people who want to oppose it.. even if i don't agree. But when they talk about it in terms of being a sin against God.. well, that is where the superstition creeps in. Frankly, I don't see how this discussion fits with the abortion argument, which is why I dismissed the notion.

~Bang

I respect your decision to not believe in God, but why is it necessary to interject that? The argument still stands without including the aspect of faith, because abortion can also be classified as a sin against humanity and its rights. There are many on this board who believe in God, and I just don't understand why you have to say you think it's all mumbo jumbo and fairytales. For many of us, that mumbo jumbo is the most important thing in our lives.

I'm not only talking about you, either. This board has a real problem with respecting faith. I specifically remember threads concerning exorcism and Catholic rites and was absolutely appalled at the lack of respect shown for other people's beliefs.

[Bang]

I respect your decision to not believe in God, but why is it necessary to interject that? The argument still stands without including the aspect of faith, because abortion can also be classified as a sin against humanity and its rights. There are many on this board who believe in God, and I just don't understand why you have to say you think it's all mumbo jumbo and fairytales. For many of us, that mumbo jumbo is the most important thing in our lives.

I'm not only talking about you, either. This board has a real problem with respecting faith. I specifically remember threads concerning exorcism and Catholic rites and was absolutely appalled at the lack of respect shown for other people's beliefs.

Well, ask the guy why he felt it necessary to interject the abortion debate in America into this thread about ritual child murder in Africa stemming from a belief in magic? (to me, belief in superstition is belief in superstition, regardless of whether it's tree spirits or God or throwing salt over your shoulder if you spill it.)

This thread has nothing to do with abortion, but Mr Thumper felt it necessary to try and hijack the thread to the abortion debate within four posts of the beginning.

Meet bull**** with bull****, i always say.

~Bang

[Chicken Fried]

Well, ask the guy why he felt it necessary to interject the abortion debate in America into this thread about ritual child murder in Africa stemming from a belief in magic? (to me, belief in superstition is belief in superstition, regardless of whether it's tree spirits or God or throwing salt over your shoulder if you spill it.)

This thread has nothing to do with abortion, but Mr Thumper felt it necessary to try and hijack the thread to the abortion debate within four posts of the beginning.

Meet bull**** with bull****, i always say.

~Bang

Pointing fingers at who started it and using that as justification for spewing hostility for faith in God is weak, and you know it.

[Bang]

Pointing fingers at who started it and using that as justification for spewing hostility for faith in God is weak, and you know it.

except that it directly answers your question.

I'm spewing hostility to the guy who feels it necessary to push a faith issue in a place it isnt relevant.

If i were spewing hostility for faith in God, I would not have complimented ASF on the next page. ASF spent a good deal of time in this thread discussing THIS issue through the view of his faith, and I praised him for what he had to say.

You know why?

because his religious statements kept on track of the discussion, made sense in context of the discussion, and did not attempt to hijack the thread. He dropped some wisdom in here.

If the abortion debate was relevant, I'd never have popped off. But since it isn't, it's annoying to have to put up with the tunnel visioned thumping.

Typically, I stay out of religious threads.. you rarely ever see me make a post in them. Know why?

because I respect people's beliefs, and I respect a lot of people in here who hold those beliefs.

And for me to step into one of those debates and exclaim that it's just the hooey I believe it is would accomplish two things.

1. it would offend people i respect. (including you)

2. It would set Techboy on my trail, and I don't have time to do all that reading.

~Bang

[NavyDave]

Just shoot the witch doctors and the people who are paying them to murder children on sight.

[Ellis]

Just shoot the witch doctors and the people who are paying them to murder children on sight.

[Tweedr01]

except that it directly answers your question.

I'm spewing hostility to the guy who feels it necessary to push a faith issue in a place it isnt relevant.

If i were spewing hostility for faith in God, I would not have complimented ASF on the next page. ASF spent a good deal of time in this thread discussing THIS issue through the view of his faith, and I praised him for what he had to say.

You know why?

because his religious statements kept on track of the discussion, made sense in context of the discussion, and did not attempt to hijack the thread. He dropped some wisdom in here.

If the abortion debate was relevant, I'd never have popped off. But since it isn't, it's annoying to have to put up with the tunnel visioned thumping.

Typically, I stay out of religious threads.. you rarely ever see me make a post in them. Know why?

because I respect people's beliefs, and I respect a lot of people in here who hold those beliefs.

And for me to step into one of those debates and exclaim that it's just the hooey I believe it is would accomplish two things.

1. it would offend people i respect. (including you)

2. It would set Techboy on my trail, and I don't have time to do all that reading.

~Bang

:rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao:

[Koolblue13]

Just shoot the witch doctors and the people who are paying them to murder children on sight.

Who do you think has the guns?