Terrorism in the third world (Mexico)

[Special K]

Mi amigo,

I am so sorry to hear of your first hand experience with the terrorism in Mexico. I feel awful that this is happening right across our border and innocent people are suffering. This is not the life any of us are meant to live and I wish there was more I could personally do to help with the situation. I don't do drugs and try to create awareness among my friends about the problems south of the border, but other than that, I feel very helpless.

May you and your family do your best to stay safe. And that may include limiting posting about cartel activitiy, violence, corruption on social networking sites, even this site I would be hesitant about. I can't believe I actually have to advise someone to watch what they say for their safety. This is so not right. Stay safe, friend. And please know there are many of us in the US who are horrified by what we see and hear about what is going on south of us (and I'm sure we don't even get 10% of it) and are praying for our neighbors and looking for opportunities personally and politically where we can help.

[The 12th Commandment]

And that may include limiting posting about cartel activitiy, violence, corruption on social networking sites, even this site I would be hesitant about. I can't believe I actually have to advise someone to watch what they say for their safety. This is so not right. Stay safe, friend.

I want to agree with you (specially when it comes to the safety of a compadre) but there's no other way for them to let people throughout their country or outside know what's going on. The truth, the social network as a news source is their reality and the folks who continue to use it are heroes. They should be smart and careful, some will still be caught. What would you do? Hide for your own safety and watch your country go down the tubes? I don't know you, but I know enough about you to guess you would not. I'm not encouraging anyone to put themselves in danger on my word, of course, but should they feel the need they should be applauded. Hard as that might be.

[rocazares]

Thanks to everyone, for your kind words and good wishes.

I want to thank every single brother at ES and I will do that via PM.

To this day I don't have kids, I'm not married, but damn, how much do I want a baby, I love babys , but that needs to wait until better times.

I know this world its not perfect, but I'm doing my best to left (sp?) this world better than I found it in social terms.

[Skin'emAlive]

Rocazares:

Im so sorry to hear all that you are going through. It really is a terrible tragedy what is happening in Mexico. I wish you the best. I dont know if anyone has asked you this, but are you able to leave the country? Living like that just sounds absolutely terrible. Take care and be safe buddy.

[SWFLSkins]

If there is any source that can stop or reverse this course it is God. Use the social media against them, that is why they fear it. Get the word out, to keep getting the word out. Go to the churchs and whisper into the halls, spread fliers quietly and start a revolution for peace.

God be with you.

[Larry]

OK, Americans. (OK, USians?)

What do we do about it?

I think that even the most isolationist of us would agree that this is something that we need to stop. (Or at least "reduce to a level where we can go back to ignoring it.") To me, this is comparable to the Taliban taking over a country which we share a border with.

I'm not even going to say that it will spread over here. I suspect that we all know that it has already spread over here, just not as much. Yet.

I assume that what it would take, would be a joint operation. It will take military (because the cartels have military power at their disposal), law enforcement (because, IMO, this is a law enforcement problem. IMO, law enforcement needs to be in charge, here. They just need support from other places.), and intel. (I suspect that just like dealing with any other form of terrorism, that the most important thing you need is intel.)

Are we willing to pay the price that it's going to take?

I think that we have to. This isn't like it's happening in Afghanistan, and we can say it doesn't affect us. It's happening next door, and it does.

OTOH, let's be honest, here, too. If Obama were to come out tomorrow and announce that "we need to do this", is there a single person in here who thinks that it won't be used as a political poker chip?

[PCS]

Okay. File this under "if you think you have it bad,check this out." I can't imagine would it must be like to live with and like that. It takes more strength and courage than most could wish to have to continue to do what you do. God Bless.

[Fresh8686]

Roc,

I've always respected your writing on here and kept an eye out for your posts talking about the terrible things going on in Mexico. And while I can't say I truly know you, I can say I do care about you and pray that you and those close to you are safe from harm. I wish I could do more than just write these words, but anyways please stay safe and if you ever need anything or just want to talk to someone, just hit me up and I'll be here for you.

[The 12th Commandment]

OK, Americans. (OK, USians?)

What do we do about it?

I read an article a couple days ago on CNN about a recent survey of other countries feelings about the US. Mexico had a very low opinion of us. Lower than even Saudi Arabia or most of the muslim countries. They, in some sense rightly, blame us for their troubles concerning drugs. At least the common man on the street. Just as the common man on the street here blames them for the loss of control over their country. They're still proud people with a rich history of self determination and the thought of US troops in the their country (again) would be intolerable IMO. Do we just go do it anyway? I don't think so. It's not that easy I'm afraid, not that your suggestions would be easy at all. The only way I see them accepting help is money and training. Which we already do. Do we up it, while we suffer at home through our own crisis? I don't think in the current "what don't you understand about illegal" bogyman thinking of so many in this country that's there's a chance in hell. Least not till it comes over here more blatantly.

[Prosperity]

OK, Americans. (OK, USians?)

What do we do about it?

I think that even the most isolationist of us would agree that this is something that we need to stop. (Or at least "reduce to a level where we can go back to ignoring it.") To me, this is comparable to the Taliban taking over a country which we share a border with.

I'm not even going to say that it will spread over here. I suspect that we all know that it has already spread over here, just not as much. Yet.

I assume that what it would take, would be a joint operation. It will take military (because the cartels have military power at their disposal), law enforcement (because, IMO, this is a law enforcement problem. IMO, law enforcement needs to be in charge, here. They just need support from other places.), and intel. (I suspect that just like dealing with any other form of terrorism, that the most important thing you need is intel.)

Are we willing to pay the price that it's going to take?

I think that we have to. This isn't like it's happening in Afghanistan, and we can say it doesn't affect us. It's happening next door, and it does.

OTOH, let's be honest, here, too. If Obama were to come out tomorrow and announce that "we need to do this", is there a single person in here who thinks that it won't be used as a political poker chip?

Not much we can do about it...

Reforming the Drug War would be the most helpful thing, at least then we could stop supplying the cartels with resources, we could also give the Mexican gov't some money... but this sort of cancerous corruption can only be cured from within. Mexico is going to have to have a merciless crack down on the cartels. Torture, assassination, speedy executions, may all be necessary. After that they'll have to reform their government to prevent tyranny.

It's a long road ahead.

[The 12th Commandment]

I think they've turned a nasty corner down there where the cartels are more powerful than the government. It's going to devolve into anarchy (more so than now) and the money/power will have to be taken away from the cartels. The only way that happens is if WE legalize drugs. Which I don't see happening in enough time to matter.

Added: If they would've cracked down 10 years ago Elliot Ness style they would have turned the corner the other way. They didn't because of corruption and too many politicos being on the dole and concerned only with the moment and their own well being. Not claiming that would've stopped drug smuggling but it would have never led to the cartels having the power they have now.

[visionary]

OK, Americans. (OK, USians?)

What do we do about it?

I was thinking abut this a lot the other day.

I'm not sure how much we can do in the US to help.

Possibly we could influence the cartels negatively by reducing the prices and demand here in some ways.

(I don't really want to turn this into a long debate on legalization or drug use here though. lol).

I think the main problem though is that there is a widespread corrupt culture in Mexico right now that rewards people for joining gangs and killing and opressing other people.

What might help would be for Mexico to make it obvious that these kinds of criminal jobs are not a good investment.

Here's some ideas I had.

They need to make it clear to cartel and gang members that these kinds of lifestyles will end in disaster and that there are much safer, secure alternatives out there.

Take out the diehards who are doing this **** for pleasure.

Show the rest that there are other ways to provide for their families, or become prosperous.

Ways that don't include having to constantly look back over their shoulder, kill other families to survive, or worry when their family might get its turn too.

Some sort of amnesty might have to be tried to an extent to encourage people to change.

If none of this works, go after the holdouts hard and do everything you can to protect innocent people from the fallout, including perhaps evacuations of some sort.

I'm not sure how successful it would be or what the details would look like, but it's what I came up with.

[Destino]

Larry - The question you need to ask is "is there anything we can do about this?" Drug cartels make Al Qaeda look tiny and pathetic by comparison. Getting rid of cartels... has that even ever successfully been pulled off anywhere? You can get rid of one but the money motivator makes them collectively behave like a mythical hydra. You destroy the strongest cartel and you end up with more taking it's place. The new ones being smarter and far more blood thirsty. This applies to leadership within the cartels as well. As you take out their leaders you move the assassins that operated under the leadership further up the ladder and the cartel gets more and more prone to violence.

I wonder if the world has the stomach to do what's needed to rid itself of such a problem.

[Larry]

Question for the folks saying "legalize drugs":

I'm in favor of legalization. (I'm a libertarian.)

But are you really certain that legalizing drugs (and we'd have to legalize all of them. Legalize pot and keep the rest illegal, and they simply change their product selection.) would solve the problem?

Or would they simply move into a different crime?

For example, the extortion that they're doing now, they could still do that.

I'm remembering a scene from NCIS:

Gibbs is working with Homeland Security on some case, some subject comes up.

Gibbs: When did you folks care about copyright infringement?

HS Guy: Last al Qaeda shipment we intercepted? 200,000 bootleg copies of

The Lion King

. That bust cost al Qaeda $7M. They've figured out that there's more money and less risk in smuggling DVDs.

Can we even be certain that legalizing heroin would seriously hurt these cartels?

[Destino]

The primary cash sources for the cartels as I understand it are marijuana (about 60% of drug revenue, from what I've read) and cocaine which they buy from the Columbian cartels both of which they sell primarily in the US. They've also taken over the market of pirated goods from Islamic groups that previously were very active in the America's.

Point is legalizing marijuana alone isn't going to do it. Even if the 60% figure is accurate it won't matter because focusing on it shows a failure to understand how massive the pie really is. Their revenue has been reported at 20+ billion. 40% of that (plus non-drug revenue) would still be about 10 billion.... which I believe would be larger than the US porn industry. Think they'd leave that on the table? Of course not.

You'd nee full legalization in the US and corresponding production. I think decriminalization would help them unless accompanied by MASSIVE increases in penalties for trafficking.

[The 12th Commandment]

Question for the folks saying "legalize drugs":

I'm in favor of legalization. (I'm a libertarian.)

But are you really certain that legalizing drugs (and we'd have to legalize all of them. Legalize pot and keep the rest illegal, and they simply change their product selection.) would solve the problem?

Taking milk away from the grocery store would lower their profits. To what extent? I'm not sure but you have to start with a step and that one (taking MJ profits away from them) is clearly achievable in the near term.

Or would they simply move into a different crime?

For example, the extortion that they're doing now, they could still do that.

You answered your own question, they are already doing every possible evil thing they can and increasing the punishments for those who give them trouble. Again, the only way we would ever hurt them is to take away their money (outside of an invasion that would probably bankrupt us in the process and I think some of them are smart to know this).

I'm remembering a scene from NCIS:

Gibbs is working with Homeland Security on some case, some subject comes up.

Gibbs: When did you folks care about copyright infringement?

HS Guy: Last al Qaeda shipment we intercepted? 200,000 bootleg copies of

The Lion King

. That bust cost al Qaeda $7M. They've figured out that there's more money and less risk in smuggling DVDs.

Can we even be certain that legalizing heroin would seriously hurt these cartels?

Seven million from DVD's is a lot less than 30 million for heroin base

It has to start somewhere and any damage we can inflict, no matter the size, is a step in the right direction. As to not having this involve legalizing drug? That's the whole point of it. You can't leave that out of the discussion .

[Madison Redskin]

It has to start somewhere and any damage we can inflict, no matter the size, is a step in the right direction. As to not having this involve legalizing drug? That's the whole point of it. You can't leave that out of the discussion .

I believe we should legalize the use of domestically cultivated marijuana. I also believe if you use drugs and you don't know where it came from, you are a huge part of the problem.

[The 12th Commandment]

I believe we should legalize the use of domestically cultivated marijuana. I also believe if you use drugs and you don't know where it came from, you are a huge part of the problem.

Spot on

[SWFLSkins]

I do blame alot of this on American Corporations moving manufacturing to China instead of keeping on this side of the world. All people in Latin American wants is a chance to have a decent life. Latinos are family oriented for the most part and just want to advance the family. How much would border control cost if there were jobs in the countries people were fleeing? How much would the manufactuers save on shipping vs. labor. I know the products would cost slightly more, but what was the political cost? And what are the long term implications or sending money to a communist country vs. a border ally? Money is the cause of this mess, and it ain't just drug money. American companies cashed out on all of us Americans to reap easy Chinese profits and Indian profits.

[rocazares]

I read an article a couple days ago on CNN about a recent survey of other countries feelings about the US. Mexico had a very low opinion of us. Lower than even Saudi Arabia or most of the muslim countries. ..

Jealous It's all about the jealous, we're a double faced society

In the past, the goverments tell us at least a couple of times: we're one step closer to the first world.

And then ... $ crisis.

[Prosperity]

Question for the folks saying "legalize drugs":

I'm in favor of legalization. (I'm a libertarian.)

But are you really certain that legalizing drugs (and we'd have to legalize all of them. Legalize pot and keep the rest illegal, and they simply change their product selection.) would solve the problem?

Or would they simply move into a different crime?

For example, the extortion that they're doing now, they could still do that.

I'm remembering a scene from NCIS:

Gibbs is working with Homeland Security on some case, some subject comes up.

Gibbs: When did you folks care about copyright infringement?

HS Guy: Last al Qaeda shipment we intercepted? 200,000 bootleg copies of

The Lion King

. That bust cost al Qaeda $7M. They've figured out that there's more money and less risk in smuggling DVDs.

Can we even be certain that legalizing heroin would seriously hurt these cartels?

Selling cocain to Americans is much more profitable than extortion, they are making money on it now, so obviously it would hurt them. I mean, there's very little on this planet that is as value dense and malleable for smuggling as cocaine

compare the volume of a DVD case to an equivalent volume of cocaine. One is worth $2-5 the other $200-500... $7 million is small potatoes to the cartels. They are definitely way more powerful than the political terrorists of the Middle East (with the exception of Hezbollah) they just don't have the same goals.

[Hubbs]

Question for the folks saying "legalize drugs":

I'm in favor of legalization. (I'm a libertarian.)

But are you really certain that legalizing drugs (and we'd have to legalize all of them. Legalize pot and keep the rest illegal, and they simply change their product selection.) would solve the problem?

Or would they simply move into a different crime?

For example, the extortion that they're doing now, they could still do that.

I'm remembering a scene from NCIS:

Gibbs is working with Homeland Security on some case, some subject comes up.

Gibbs: When did you folks care about copyright infringement?

HS Guy: Last al Qaeda shipment we intercepted? 200,000 bootleg copies of

The Lion King

. That bust cost al Qaeda $7M. They've figured out that there's more money and less risk in smuggling DVDs.

Can we even be certain that legalizing heroin would seriously hurt these cartels?

Go ahead and name another black market that's even half as lucrative as drugs. Marijuana alone is estimated to be worth tens of billions of dollars annually. Some estimates have it at over $100 billion. And that's a cheap drug.

Are there entire bootleg DVD cartels? I don't mean underground organizations that, on occasion, happen to sell bootleg DVDs. I don't even mean organizations that are specifically devoted to selling bootleg DVDs. I mean international organizations that base their operations on bootleg DVDs and generate enough revenue to buy billions and billions of dollars' worth of weapons, enough to topple governments. So where are they? If it were possible to do, don't you think some criminals would have figured it out by now? Don't you think Al Qaeda would love to be strong enough to have de facto control of many parts of a country right next to us?

Where are the Foakley cartels?

The Folex cartels?

The home poker game cartels?

I've always found this line of reasoning to be rather remarkable. In modern North American history, thousands of types of crimes have always existed, and yet substance prohibition is completely unique in its ability to result in the creation of large, organized, powerful crime organizations with the strength to go toe-to-toe with law enforcement while simultaneously killing each other. I'm sure that people are already racing to pick apart that last sentence, so allow me to clarify: I'm not saying that other types of criminal organizations don't exist. Of course they exist, in all sorts of forms. The Mafia is/was perhaps the best example of a large, organized, powerful crime organization that wasn't primarily a response to the underground substance market (although they certainly took advantage of that market). What I'm saying is: Only substance prohibition has, by itself, caused the creation of organizations as powerful as the ones we're talking about. No other law comes close. The organizations that exist to sell sin-tax-free cigarettes or even prescription drugs are a joke compared to cartels, because no other black market is nearly as large. Alcohol prohibition and the War on Drugs have a direct correlation with the American gangster era and the cartel era, and yet the fact that ending prohibition wouldn't magically end all criminal activity everywhere is somehow used to question whether or not ending prohibition would have any effect at all.

When you figure out a way to make $50 billion a year off of bootleg copies of Bridesmaids, let me know.

[The 12th Commandment]

Jealous It's all about the jealous, we're a double faced society

In the past, the goverments tell us at least a couple of times: we're one step closer to the first world.

And then ... $ crisis.

Very poignant. To clarify, let me say I've spent a lot of time in Mexico, the border as well as the interior and coasts. I've never felt more welcome anywhere I've traveled. I lived for a month with a family in Cuernavaca it was one of the highlights of my life. On a personal level getting to know some exceptional folks from a different culture fairly well and the wonders that are la Cuidad de la eterna primavera - what a place. It's not a person to person thing I figure that from my persona experiences, which are pretty broad. I still have family down there and here from them too, how bad a turn has been taken in the last year or so. I wouldn't have believed it could much worse but it clearly is.

[DCSaints_fan]

Question for the folks saying "legalize drugs":

I'm in favor of legalization. (I'm a libertarian.)

But are you really certain that legalizing drugs (and we'd have to legalize all of them. Legalize pot and keep the rest illegal, and they simply change their product selection.) would solve the problem?

Or would they simply move into a different crime?

For example, the extortion that they're doing now, they could still do that.

I'm remembering a scene from NCIS:

Gibbs is working with Homeland Security on some case, some subject comes up.

Gibbs: When did you folks care about copyright infringement?

HS Guy: Last al Qaeda shipment we intercepted? 200,000 bootleg copies of

The Lion King

. That bust cost al Qaeda $7M. They've figured out that there's more money and less risk in smuggling DVDs.

Can we even be certain that legalizing heroin would seriously hurt these cartels?

I'm sure many would move on to other illegal activiities, but the violence would be alot less ... I don't know about you but I'd rather have the mafia ripping off pension funds and and running protection rackets than killing people over drug turf.

Take a look a this graph

As you can see the murder rate plummeted when prohibiiton was repealed in 1933 ... and it only went back up again in the 1960s with the War on Drugs. It has been trending down since 1991, but as noted in Freakanomics thats largely to to a demographic shift - the population is getting older, and most murders are commited by younger people.

[visionary]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/americas/09/19/mexico.congressman.killed/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Authorities investigate killing of Mexican congressman

Mexico City (CNN) -- A day after authorities announced that the body of a Mexican congressman was found along a highway in the coastal state of Guerrero, lawmakers from his political party called Monday for a swift investigation of his killing.

Authorities found Moises Villanueva de la Cruz near the same highway when he went missing after a party September 4. News of the federal lawmaker's death left investigators wondering whether the motive for his slaying was connected with organized crime or extortion.

"It could be simply a personal matter, we don't know, but whatever it is, we want to know soon," said Rep. Carlos Flores Rico of the Institutional Revolutionary Party.

Members of the party, which Villanueva belonged to, said authorities must investigate whether his death had something to do with his political activities.