The continued O-line problems that blight the Washington Redskins.

[TheItalianStallion]

The ability of this line to pass protect is going to be frustrating to watch, particularly on the left side. Trent hasn't shown anything to prove he's improved in pass blocking. I'm in the camp that's for putting Brown on the left side until Trent can get a grasp on it. Lichtensteiger has improved, but he's more suited for run blocking. Monty is a vast improvement over Rabach simply for the fact that he doesn't step on his QB's foot. Chester should be better than Hicks, who was released today. If that isn't an indication of improvement, I don't know what is.

The OP did acknowledge that the Oline has improved, but stressed that it was still a work in progress. We had arguably the worst Oline in the league in 2009 and franchises don't recover from that overnight. We have addressed it in both offseasons since but in all likelihood we won't be better than average. This offseason we heavily adressed the D, the backfield, and the WRs. Next year the focus can be back on Oline, and perhaps QB.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

We'd better pray that none of the starting OL gets injured.

Below are some of the backups, shown after a complete collapse and sack of Grossman in the Colts preseason game:

I'm not sure that any of these guys are legitimate NFL players right now. (Hicks and Hurt were cut.)

The failure to focus on the OL and ensure quality depth is the most obvious missed opportunity so far in the past offseason. The odds are extermely high that lack of OL depth will cost the team dearly this year.

[TSO]

Did you guys not watch the offensive line at all in the first three pre season games. They looked pretty good. I'm more concerned about the lack of depth than I am the starting five at this point.

That's what I'm saying, lol. The entire time reading GHH's OP I'm thinking "was he watching the same games I was?"... I even checked the date of the thread to make sure it wasn't earlier in Training Camp. Can't believe it, to be honest. Our Oline is immensely improved, especially in run-blocking. That's one area we looked consistently good, beating opposing teams front seven almost every play.

Now, the only perceived weakness I've seen from our Oline is in pass-blocking, especially on the interior. All three guys on the interior can get pushed back too easily, so when we face 4-3 teams with strong DTs, this is going to be a major issue. The Lions would eat us alive, for instance. Other than that, this is as solid a group we've had since 2005-2007 (when Randy Thomas was healthy, of course). Not sure what GHH was thinking here, but it's definitely not based on their play thus far.

---------- Post added September-3rd-2011 at 10:53 PM ----------

We'd better pray that none of the starting OL gets injured.

Below are some of the backups, shown after a complete collapse and sack of Grossman in the Colts preseason game:

I'm not sure that any of these guys are legitimate NFL players right now. (Hicks and Hurt were cut.)

The failure to focus on the OL and ensure quality depth is the most obvious missed opportunity so far in the past offseason. The odds are extermely high that lack of OL depth will cost the team dearly this year.

I'm sure Hurt will find his way on the PS, and if not, there will be other guys we want to put in a waiver request for. I, personally, like our depth. And I hate that you picked one play and showed that pic... there were a hundred others where they held their own. In fact, both Sean Locklear and Willie Smith have had a very good preseason. :doh:

The interior depth is a legitimate issue. I'll give you guys that, but that's it.

[Birdlives]

Of course we have o-line problems. Building an entirely new o-line with an entirely new scheme will take more than 1-2 years.

Depth and youth mixed with talent? Not nearly that easy to come by.

I'm hoping we have 3-4 exceptional starters and 1-2 solid depth guy by this time next year.

Out of a group of 8-9 guys, I think we have 4-5 of them now. We're just a little more than half way there.

[Dirt]

Hopefully, another year in the system is the biggest contributor to improvement, despite the caliber (or lack thereof) of the players added to the O line. They may not be great quality players, but they could become ones if everyone runs the system well.

It may be naive to sit on a cloud about a couple 50yd runs, but at least, what you take away from those plays is the guys getting downfield for blocks (Ray Lewis owned, anyone?), and it looks good. Looks different. Looks better than last year.

I would have to say I am worried about QB protection though. Even with how many times we got sacked last year, Donovan probably saved a bunch more by running around. It would seem we could battle that by quick plays, quick passes on a slant to Santana(which Donovan didn't really do). Because otherwise... I mean I like Rex, but he panics badly under pressure.

Still don't think it's enough of a worry to warrant 3-4 wins. I mean everything across the roster is at least a little better and, again, it's year 2 in Shannyland. So with 6 wins last year, I don't get the predictions for less wins.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

That's what I'm saying, lol. The entire time reading GHH's OP I'm thinking "was he watching the same games I was?"... I even checked the date of the thread to make sure it wasn't earlier in Training Camp. Can't believe it, to be honest. Our Oline is immensely improved, especially in run-blocking. That's one area we looked consistently good, beating opposing teams front seven almost every play.

Now, the only perceived weakness I've seen from our Oline is in pass-blocking, especially on the interior. All three guys on the interior can get pushed back too easily, so when we face 4-3 teams with strong DTs, this is going to be a major issue. The Lions would eat us alive, for instance. Other than that, this is as solid a group we've had since 2005-2007 (when Randy Thomas was healthy, of course). Not sure what GHH was thinking here, but it's definitely not based on their play thus far.

You've partly answered your own question there within your post tso. We have improved as a unit as regards run blocking if the pre-season is to be believed. But pass pro. leaves a LOT to be desired. Hell, aside from the Ravens game through which they did face serious pressure; that very same Colts game ASF revisited against a team that takes pre-season so lightly it's not even funny; the starters, particularly the interior, got pushed back WAY too easy in pass protection. What that say's to me, along with the Baltimore outing, is to read as little into pre-season as I ever do. If the front 5 are getting owned so easily when it doesn't matter, what in the Heck are they gona' be like when it goes up another few levels when the serious stuff starts? But we broke off a few spectacular long runs, to their credit, which is what mainly sticks in peoples memory from the exhibition games.

They are improved from last year. No question. I acknowledged that in the OP. And this might well be 'as solid a group as we've had since 2005-2007.' But honestly, given last years group and some of the dross we've had in that period, that's saying very little. I admire your optimism and general positivity man, but I honestly think it's misguided as regards what we have up front. I fear Beck/Grossman will be running for their lives most plays as the line play as a whole will be little better than average. And that's with the current front 5. May God go with either QB if he steps out there behind some of our backups. (On that I'm not sure what Sean Locklear you were watching pre-season, but the one I did was REAL average. I certainly wouldn't feel giddy about the prospect of him seeing the field anytime soon.).

That's 'what GHH was thinking' man. The bigger overall picture and not just a vanilla pre-season, which he also both watched every down of and took into consideration.

Hail.

[Burgold]

I think you're right to worry about the o-line and be even more worried about its depth. I can't remember a year where the o line made it through intact without anyone losing games to injuries. We're really thin esp. at guard and guard is a weakness to begin with.

I really suspect that our roster today will not be the roster for game 1.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

I think you're right to worry about the o-line and be even more worried about its depth. I can't remember a year where the o line made it through intact without anyone losing games to injuries. We're really thin esp. at guard and guard is a weakness to begin with.

I really suspect that our roster today will not be the roster for game 1.

It has to be Bur man, or else this could get REAL ugly again. Like I said in the OP, I was preemping things somewhat as I too believe there will be additions before we kick next Sunday. Though what kind of quality those additions are from other teams discards this weekend remains to be seen.

Glad I'm not the only one that see's guard as a weakness to start with irrespective of the lack of depth there.

Hail.

[Rpredskins]

O-line is hard to get right and there aren't many teams who don't have moderate to severe o-line problems. Honestly we probably have a better line than Philly and Dallas, maybe even NYG.

Fortunately this is not 2007 and we aren't facing 3 top 10 defenses twice a year. Eagles may be good but their strength is corner and they are undersized, we should be able to run on them as well as the other two teams. If I'm them, I'm worried more about our front 7 than we are about any of theirs.

[Skinzfever2010]

Pretty good thread GHH. Its going to be interesting to see how our line does next Sunday against one of the best front 4s in the division. We can use game 1 as a real measuring stick for their play. Our clear strength on offense has been our running game since I can remember. Given the fact that we're stacked at RB I would assume that we're going to be relying heavy on them. This shouldn't come as a surprise to our opponents. They know who we are (especially in the division) and what we do.

I'm not big on preseason. If we can make a statement in week 1 that might make me raise my eye brow a bit. However, if NYG defense is all over our QB and stuffing the box against our run and we're struggling moving the ball through the air I wouldn't be surprised either.

Hail!

[RedskinsInFebruary]

Good thing Beck has that quick release. He's going to need it.

[Chump Bailey]

These guys might be worth taking a look at, but I really don't see any changes coming for this season to the OL regarding the starters.

A.Q. Shipley C

Kris O'Dowd C

Jamon Meredith OT

Andrew Jackson OG

Mike McGlynn OG

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

These guys might be worth taking a look at, but I really don't see any changes coming for this season to the OL regarding the starters.

A.Q. Shipley C

Kris O'Dowd C

Jamon Meredith OT

Andrew Jackson OG

Mike McGlynn OG

I really wanted us to pick up Shipley as the '09 draft rolled after his career at Penn State. Now he seems the perfect fit for a ZBS center. Not the biggest dude around, but strong and real athletic with by all accounts a real smart football brain.

But then as he's bounced around the PA ball clubs without so much as being activated for a single regular season game, it makes you wonder how he's transitioned to pro-life.

Wouldn't hurt to look though at 25.

Not that I know anything about him, but O'Dowd was highly ranked as well wasn't he going into this past draft?

Hail.

[Chump Bailey]

Not that I know anything about him, but O'Dowd was highly ranked as well wasn't he going into this past draft?

Hail.

He was fairly highly rated GHH:

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=71187&draftyear=2011&genpos=C

I'd rather have Rex lead the team, but perhaps Beck will get the nod because of his release and legs. Maybe they're willing to sacrifice some pass protection for the ZB run game?

[wildbill1952]

O'Dowd was supposed to be good but had injury concerns if I remember correctly.

The problem, as already pointed out, is the depth, not so much the front 5. Brown and WIllaims are solid if not great and Chester was an upgrade at right guard. Montgomery was an upgrade over the aged Rabach, but neither he nor Lichtensteiger are going to threaten the Pro Bowl. Capers may be on the practice squad for the second year, but the fact he isn't among the 53 leaves some serious doubts about his ability. But if either Brown or WIlliams go down, the next guy in line is the aging Sean Locklear or the big UDFA rookie out of East Carolina. The right side appears stronger than the left but against a 3-4, we're not going to be running up the middle. Still, last year's OL was abysmal, with the Skins running backs hit at or behind the line of scrimmage 1 out of every 4 times (31 out of 32 worst). It can only be better this year.

As goes the offensive line, so goes the offense. It would be nice to see a draft with some stellar offensive line picks in it, but we haven't seen it yet and I'll be surprised if next year's first round pick isn't a cornerback.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Good summation wildbill, but surely you meant a 'quaterback' as next years first pick, not a 'corner.'

Hail.

[addicted]

Another reason why I wouldn't be surprised to see Beck named the starter come Monday/ Tuesday of this week. Grossman won the on-field contest no question; but with the line still being pushed around so much in pass pro. this pre-season Becks better athleticism and decision making under pressure may just swing it in his favour.

Hail.

I would be shocked if the Coaches can not see what I can see clearly

Beck played much worse under pressure then Grossman did in every game

Even though Beck is faster on his feet that's not to be mistaken that he is better behind the offensive line then Rex

In fact I think the opposite

Beck stares down his receivers, doesn't read the defense as well and can not feel pocket pressure like Grossman is able to do

Beck is far more of a liability under pressure then Rex is and actually makes the offensive line look worse then Rex was

I do not believe that Beck showed better decision making. I watched the 4th preseason game again and many times I felt he was making very poor decisions

Like when he scrambled to the left sideline and then decided to throw behind Sellers across his body to the right sideline

Or when he was under pressure and threw into triple coverage and actually hit a defender in his back

Several times I questioned Becks decision making in that game

The only advantage Beck has for dealing with pressure is that he is slightly faster in his roll outs but that's not enough

We need a guy who can read defenses know where the heats coming from and can make an instant decision on what to do with the football and in this race to me that's Rex

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Interesting POV addicted man.

The Bucs game I'll grant you, but in his previous outing's in Indy and Baltimore I'd take the opposite view on the respective QB's under pressure. That said I wasn't wholly analyzing as such, just watching with the naked eye, shrugs. From that and from Rex's career, I'd feel safer behind this line with Beck personally, even if the overall production wouldn't be as great. That said. it's a 6 and two 3's situation for me as I don't expect much from either.

I guess we'll know soon enough which one the brass decide on to lead off this year.

Hail.

[Oldfan]

Another reason why I wouldn't be surprised to see Beck named the starter come Monday/ Tuesday of this week. Grossman won the on-field contest no question; but with the line still being pushed around so much in pass pro. this pre-season Becks better athleticism and decision making under pressure may just swing it in his favour.

Hail.

I was thinking this, but I didn't want to post it and derail your thread by bringing up Beck v. Grossman. One of the disadvantages of the ZBS is that the athletic O-linemen it requires are smaller and often not as good at pass protection as the bigger power-blocking types. That's one of the two major reasons that a mobile QB is a big plus in this scheme.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

I was thinking this, but I didn't want to post it and derail your thread by bringing up Beck v. Grossman.

Appreciated Of. Respectful as always.

And I agree on which QB is better suited to this scheme, but you know this already.

Hail.

[addicted]

Interesting POV addicted man.

The Bucs game I'll grant you, but in his previous outing's in Indy and Baltimore I'd take the opposite view on the respective QB's under pressure.

Really?

I want you to go back and watch the Beck highlights from those games with me since you think that:

Indy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCQH6wSVw88

It's only a 6 minute clip, and I think its worth revisiting. You actually have to go to the 2 minute point to see Beck under any pressure. At the 1 minute 51 second mark is the first time Beck had pressure on him and he easily took a sack trying to use those fast feet he has. Before that throw I already had some problems with Becks game:

0-0.13: First throw no pressure, Beck stares down the receiver the whole route. He does this almost the entire game

0:13-0:56: Second throw no pressure, again stares down the receiver. Ball thrown a bit high but receiver tripped in end zone

1:08-1:17: Beck feeling imagined pressure, slightly rushed his pass, low pass tipped at the line

then once in the red zone at the 1:51 mark you get to see how Beck handed a rush and it was poorly

His speed didn't allow him to get away from the rusher and he almost fumbled the football trying too

Now go to the 2:30 mark and here is another sack that should have been avoided. He has plenty of time and tried to run away from the defender but wasn't able to gain any separation. He should have thrown the ball away not taken a loss

At the 3:16 mark in the red zone he throws a bad pass on third down which is off target and not in front of the yard stick. It was a hard throw and the announcer even says "good throw" by Beck but to me if your going to throw a three yard pass to get the first down don't hurry that pass like Beck does here and place it in a spot where when caught there is no chance for a first down (he did this) but rather ensure either the balls where the receiver can make a play for the first down with his feet or at least make sure the ball goes past the first down. He did neither rushed this throw and led to a drive stalling

At the 4:40 mark Beck is under pressure and throws the ball into the ground which looked at first like an easy intentional grounding call. Beck was lucky that Williams was in the vicinity. In the regular season this would likely get a huge reaction and an easy call against Beck as Williams is not looking for the ball at all. This is not what I want to see any of our QB's doing facing pressure

At the 5:03 mark Beck makes an outstanding throw to Stallworth when he's under pressure however upon closer look what bothers me about that play is how he didn't realize that the defender with a few more inches could have easily knocked the football out of his hand. Once he feels him after he takes a swipe at the football he steps up and delivers the football. However in a regular season game we would be lucky to not have a fumble on this play

At 6:13 Beck is sacked badly in the red zone and looks to be lucky to not have coughed up the football here. Because Beck stares down his receivers so badly he barely had a second to see the defender in his face who was on the opposite side of the field rushing in. Beck's failure to read blitz pickups correctly and limited pocket awareness will make the line look worse then it is like this. You need more from your starting QB. Beck had a chance to get rid of the football and didn't

I'd do the Ravens game for ya too since I wasn't at all impressed with Becks game here either

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbsM5PW970&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

Very first play of the game I believe was John Becks best play of the entire preseason. He saw the coverage, read it correctly, and threw the ball perfectly. Nothing at all wrong about this throw

If he was able to handle pressure like this and read defenses like this I would be totally on board. He doesn't though and wishing he could doesn't mean he can

1:30 - John Beck take an unnecessary sack when our receivers are covered and he could have easily thrown the ball away not taken negative yards.

2:10 - Becks under pressure with the crowd yelling needing a first down with three to go and throws a very bad pass while under pressure in the dirt to an open Santana Moss which would have easily been a first down if the ball was thrown better. Terrible throw by Beck and the announcers let him have it

Now I think it's important to note that before the next play at the 2:58 minute mark of this the announcers say that Beck is now going up against the Baltimore reserves.

Against the starters Beck with one exception looked terrible to me in this game.

I don't care how a guy looks against reserves if he looks like this against the starters.

Beck in all three games showed me he can not handle pressure, will not make necessary good defensive reads, will not protect the football better then Rex Grossman

I know it's unpopular but opinions don't matter much to me

I go by what I see after watching 30 years of QB play

That said I wasn't wholly analyzing as such, just watching with the naked eye, shrugs. From that and from Rex's career, I'd feel safer behind this line with Beck personally, even if the overall production wouldn't be as great. That said. it's a 6 and two 3's situation for me as I don't expect much from either.

I guess we'll know soon enough which one the brass decide on to lead off this year.

Hail.

I have faith that they know all of this too and will go with Rex

[tex]

Did you guys not watch the offensive line at all in the first three pre season games. They looked pretty good. I'm more concerned about the lack of depth than I am the starting five at this point.

No lie. The starters better stay healthy or else. Lack of quality depth on the oline is a big worry. I like the rook but that's about it.

[RedskinsInFebruary]

As goes the offensive line, so goes the offense.

...as well as the defense, because they won't be worn out by the 3rd Q.

[LD0506]

I understand the concerns, I just don't agree with the conclusions. The simple fact that Rabach is no longer starting makes a vast difference. Instead of the line being broken in the middle every play means your QB has a line of 5 guys shielding him as opposed to a T/G pair on either side trying to stem the tide. Yes GHH, there is work to be done, it could be better, we have legitimate reasons to wonder how they will perform but the fundamental dynamic has been altered. The O line is the single most important element of the game when it comes to coordination of play, five big guys have to be choreographed to support/mask each other in the face of changing D pressure, and even moreso in ZBS. You can't judge any one of them in a vacuum, it is the synergy between all of them that really matters, and we saw improvement later last season and some solid play in the preseason just finished. It will be smoother. more refined and more effective as the season plays out.

[Theismann07]

This has been an ongoing issue for many years now, but for the first time in awhile, I do believe that we're moving in the right direction at this point. The o-line will definitely be improved this year as evidenced by the play in the preseason. My concern, too, is the depth issue; however, I believe this will be rectified as we continue to build.

:giantsuck: