The continued O-line problems that blight the Washington Redskins.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

I'm not exactly sure what your looking for me to say looking at that addicted man. (I've just twice run through the Indy highlights, and I apologize for not bothering with the Baltimore ones but we're miles apart in what we're seeing.).

I think your being pretty harsh on a guy with a mere 5 competitive games under his belt in his career. And none for 3 full seasons. I saw in that package a guy who was accurate with his throws, both in the pocket and when he rolled out (which he also did to good effect with his feet on designed plays); with a quick release. I can't say whether he's staring guys down our not not knowing the plays and his reads; but if he knows the play and where he's going with the football as soon as he steps up to the line, his first read/ target is open, and he gets the ball zipped in there quick, what's the problem I'm missing? The first two sacks I'll give you. The horse collar was just that, a desperate, horse collar tackle that was B/S; and the last sack he had 2 seconds if he was lucky from the snap to Trent totally wiffing on the protection and the Colts guy being in his face. I don't know how you can lay that sack on him.

Is this where I throw up a Grossman career montage to show how he panics 9 times out of 10 under pressure and just throws it up, often to see it coming back the other way? We can all point out bad parts of a guys play through a short clip. But I saw a lot of good there too all things considered for such an inexperienced guy.

Again, I have absolutely zero investment in either guy. I honestly don't see much of anything from either. (Which doesn't unduly bother me as I want to sort this mess out once and for all at the top end of next years draft.). But giving the standard of our line, particularly in pass protection; and the scheme the Shanahan's run which calls for a mobile QB they like to roll out and one who's accurate and smart in his decisions on the run; I'd take Beck over Grossman hands down. Rex will score more, down to the chances he takes. It'll come back more times than it goes forward (slight exaggeration, but you get the point); but that's Rex. Beck, whilst not as attacking, will play the percentages and gives you a better chance to win IMHO.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this man. Which works for me as I'm not too bothered who they go with if truth be told.

Hail.

[addicted]

As for Rex Grossman's handling pressure lets look at Rex Grossman versus Baltimore

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCQH6wSVw88

0-0.10: Rex feels and sees the pressure and hits the receiver on a screen before taking a sack. Unfortuante for Rex the receiver is looking to run before catching the pass and drops it

0:10-0:30: Once again Rex is under pressure he realizes it is coming and gets the ball out to a safe place on the field before taking the sack. Looked ugly but did not turn it over or take a sack

0:31-1:30: Rex again under pressure throws a fluttering ball down the field which is almost caught. He's hit again by the blitzer. One more second and he completes this pass

...the line picks up the blitzers here and Rex moves them down the field...

If you want to know what Rex can do with time to throw check him out progress to his third option on the pass at 2:15 for the first down.

2:50: Worst play of the game for Rex. Its 3rd and 14 and he throws a terrible pass to Moss which wouldn't if it was on target been a first down. Not sure why he decided to do that but it wasn't an lal bad move. We were on the 50 and wanting to keep field position. I would have prefered to see more aggressive play calling here but understand it's preseason

3:03: Rex incomplete to no one. Really liked this play. Bltizer coming in, Rex sees him and throws the ball away. This is the smart thing to do imo. Throw the ball away on 1st down. Do not take a sack or negative yards. Live to throw another day

3:21: Rex takes a sack. The snap came out high and Rex handled it fine but didn't have any time at all to throw the ball away and takes a sack making sure to secure the football when he's crushed by the blitzer. Sometimes the thing to do is protect the football and take the hit. He did his job here.

3:45: Best play from Rex all night. Pressure is collapsing the pocket but Rex stays in to deliver a beautiful pass over the middle of the field.

4:10: Pass compelte to the TE. Good timing route precision passing

4:49: Corner blitz Rex sees to deliver the dump off to the RB

5:04: Another Corner blitz Rex sees in time to deliver a good pass to the WR. Jaws goes on to say that the coaches will love the play of Rex here

5:47: Another blitz read correctly by Rex in time to hit Moss for another first down

5:59: Good throw to Moss after a good pump fake in what should have been an easy TD but Moss dropped the football

6:22: Lucky break that Rex's pass here in the end zone wasn't picked off. Looked to me as if he wanted Moss to go up and get the football here but that's an unwise decision. Pressure wasn't a factor here that was just Rex throwing the ball up

6:34: Pressure coming from both sides but Rex sees it and throws the ball away ensuring a chance for points in a 14-14 tie

6:57: TD pass to Moss. Good play calling and better blitz pickup on a 3rd and 15

[chipwhich]

I'm not exactly sure what your looking for me to say looking at that addicted man. (I've just twice run through the Indy highlights, and I apologize for not bothering with the Baltimore ones but we're miles apart in what we're seeing.).

Interesting that you would choose the only game where he performed well (in my opinion).

I still don't get the Beck hype. He looked really good against Indy. Against everyone else I would have graded him below average.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

It wasn't by design man. I just didn't see the point in going through another example as we we're so apart on the first one.

No offence to your post, as I'm sure it had it's merits.

Hail.

[addicted]

I'm not exactly sure what your looking for me to say looking at that addicted man. (I've just twice run through the Indy highlights, and I apologize for not bothering with the Baltimore ones but we're miles apart in what we're seeing.).

That's ok GHH if your too busy to go over these

I've just now posted the Rex writeup for you to ignore as well I guess

Which will show you what a good QB who can handle pressure would look like at comparison with the lines and everything being equal except the QB

If that's not enough for you to consider changing your mind pal then nothing I say or to better show you

I think if your going to pick a horse in the race you should make an educated guess at the winner not just ignore what is plain as day

I think your being pretty harsh on a guy with a mere 5 competitive games under his belt in his career. And none for 3 full seasons. I saw in that package a guy who was accurate with his throws, both in the pocket and when he rolled out (which he also did to good effect with his feet on designed plays); with a quick release. I can't say whether he's staring guys down our not not knowing the plays and his reads; but if he knows the play and where he's going with the football as soon as he steps up to the line, his first read/ target is open, and he gets the ball zipped in there quick, what's the problem I'm missing? The first two sacks I'll give you. The horse collar was just that, a desperate, horse collar tackle that was B/S; and the last sack he had 2 seconds if he was lucky from the snap to Trent totally wiffing on the protection and the Colts guy being in his face. I don't know how you can lay that sack on him.

Well for one I don't give a damn if a guy has 1, 5, 15, 35, 65 or whatever starts man

I am a Redskins fan first and not a fan of either player to be honest

All I want is the best player available on the field leading the team

And it's obvious to me that between these two guys that player is Rex Grossman and not John Beck

So save the excuses about the poor man's career because did ya ever stop to think maybe there isn't some great conspiracy against John Beck

And that maybe he just doesn't have the ability to out play other guys trying to do the job he does?

I think every man has the right to go out there and feed his family

But I don't think every man has the right to QB my team. Only the guy giving us the best shot at winning can do that

Anyway the Colts game they weren't blitzing that much and when they did bring pressure John Beck failed with dealing with it

Probably that's one of the many reasons he's not an NFL starting QB

Is this where I throw up a Grossman career montage to show how he panics 9 times out of 10 under pressure and just throws it up, often to see it coming back the other way? We can all point out bad parts of a guys play through a short clip. But I saw a lot of good there too all things considered for such an inexperienced guy.

First of all John Beck is 30 years old and has been in the league for the past 4 years

I do not consider him as you do the same as a early 20's rookie

John Beck is definitely not that

Second off look at Grossman in the Ravens game

He isn't folding to the same pressure Beck was

Rex was delivering the ball under much worse pressure then anything John was facing and did a great job with it

Maybe the only "accident" in the Ravens game was thinking that Becks 3 passes only against the starters was by mistake

I honestly think like so many others you have this preconceived idea that John Becks something great when he isn't

And you think that John Beck won't turn the ball over and he will

And you think that John Becks been given a raw deal in the league and he hasn't

And outside of one preseason game where the Colts basically took it easy on him

you have a play here and a play there to show that in your mind John Becks equal to Rex Grossman and I can not stress how I disagree with that

Face up to the music that John Beck could be a diamond in the rough but he's showing too many issues to take seriously as the starting QB of this team and at age 30 no one should look at to turn his career around quickly

Again, I have absolutely zero investment in either guy. I honestly don't see much of anything from either. (Which doesn't unduly bother me as I want to sort this mess out once and for all at the top end of next years draft.). But giving the standard of our line, particularly in pass protection; and the scheme the Shanahan's run which calls for a mobile QB they like to roll out and one who's accurate and smart in his decisions on the run; I'd take Beck over Grossman hands down.

What you are doing is buying into the idea that John Beck is that man when he just isn't

The idea you have is correct. The problem is who is executing that plan isn't able to do what you want

And there is no question to me that with this offensive lines issues the correct QB for the job is not at all John Beck

Rex will score more, down to the chances he takes. It'll come back more times than it goes forward (slight exaggeration, but you get the point); but that's Rex. Beck, whilst not as attacking, will play the percentages and gives you a better chance to win IMHO.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this man. Which works for me as I'm not too bothered who they go with if truth be told.

Hail.

Me either

I went into the preseason with one understanding

If I was to take John Beck seriously then I needed to see the proof of that

And the proof never came and I didn't change my mind about the guy

He's not ready to take over the reigns of the team

And he is not the better choice to lead the team

There is no question to me at all about this

Opinions do not matter what I see on the field is the only thing that does

---------- Post added September-4th-2011 at 08:55 AM ----------

It wasn't by design man. I just didn't see the point in going through another example as we we're so apart on the first one.

No offence to your post, as I'm sure it had it's merits.

Hail.

I agree

No sense in beating a dead horse

If you choose to be stubborn and wrong then that is completely on you not me

but for someone who would post a thread about the offensive line woes I would have thought looking at how the two QB's faired under pressure

Would be something you cared about but maybe not?

anyway choose to watch/read/respond or don't it really doesn't bother me at all just trying to help

[Ashburn Dave]

I don't see Shanny or Allen ever kicking their feet up and feeling satisfied about any position so I fully expect them to be on top of any player released that they feel is an upgrade.

I do feel better about our starters this year but as others have pointed out that if we have injuries then we're going to be in trouble. The team is still trending upward and we can't expect them to fix our talent depleted team in just two years.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

*Chuckles.

addicted, if it remotely bothered me who the darn QB was I'd go through each and every play on your three examples, which we'd disagree on, and throw up both visual and statistical examples of how Grossman has continually, for want of a better expression, totally 'screwed the pooch' throughout his pro career 9 times out of 10. But I won't, as I neither have the inclination nor does the QB situation bother me in 2011 in DC.

Aside from which you've made it perfectly clear that your right and everyone else is wrong on Beck/ Grossman; and you've also done a fine job of presuming my thoughts I didn't even know I had. As well as apparently being perceived to of ignored you despite explaining and apologizing as to why I left the second clip alone.

But meh, 'I'm stubborn and completely wrong'; so again, let's agree to disagree on this, and get back to the thread at hand.

Hail.

[addicted]

*Chuckles.

addicted, if it remotely bothered me who the darn QB was I'd go through each and every play on your three examples, which we'd disagree on, and throw up both visual and statistical examples of how Grossman has continually, for want of a better expression, totally 'screwed the pooch' throughout his pro career 9 times out of 10. But I won't, as I neither have the inclination nor does the QB situation bother me in 2011 in DC.

You are simply ignoring all visual proof as to what we have here with these two guys with your postings

Why in the hell would you simply look at how one guy performed against the subpar Colts defense and ignore the much better defense with the Ravens

Or for that matter bring up what Rex might have done in the past?

Look at the here and now if you want to take an honest look at these two players

they have the same lines, same receivers, but yet one guy - your guy - screwed the pooch here with this team

I'm basing my opinion on video evidence of what I can see where as you seem to be more interested in denial, theory, and excuses.

And now are getting defensive which makes this a boring conversation to me

If what they do on the field (with the line your saying is giving up too much pressure that I agree with) doesn't really matter then what exactly does to you?

And this is exactly in line with the topic

The lines been giving up too much pressure that much is certain

So since it seems we don't have a dominating offensive line which QB based on all video evidence we have seen this year gives us the best chance to win?

The answer is Rex Grossman. He might only be a C but if he's a C then Becks a D-

We can argue over who could help the offensive line out there in Free Agency but if your QB's play sucks then will it really matter?

[DavidGQ]

Neither one stands out to me in PS. They're both equal. Made some great plays and some bad. But I believe Beck will get the nod because he has more upside than Rex. If Rex is so great, he wouldn't be sitting at home for days until we sign him. No one else out there wants him because they all know how he is.

[GoDeep81]

No more coffee for Addicted.. lol Your gettin way too wound up bro.. Neither of these guys is gonna set the world on fire..

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Oh addicted, sighs. I've tried polite. I've tried explaining this doesn't interest me in the slightest. I was even restrained and polite when you condescendingly told me I knew what I was thinking, how wrong I was and right you were; and how I'd ignored you through my stubbornness in refusing to accept the visual evidence.

Maybe if I ignore you you'll stop making an ass of yourself and let this go when I'm patently not interested?

Oh, for the record, I'm not interested in whom get's the gig as wins don't concern me this year. This year is another stepping stone to years 4 and 5 and being were we want to be. And as I don't foresee many with either man under center, Beck or Grossman is just fine by me.

Hail.

[HailGreen28]

Neither one stands out to me in PS. They're both equal. Made some great plays and some bad. But I believe Beck will get the nod because he has more upside than Rex. If Rex is so great, he wouldn't be sitting at home for days until we sign him. No one else out there wants him because they all know how he is.

We couldn't sign free agents until a certain date. That and the rumor Rex wanted starter money that Shanahallen wasn't willing to give him, rightfully. Rex was good enough a teammate to participate in lock-out practices even without a contract.

Beck is 30. He has multiple problems that Rex doesn't: Stares down recievers, no pocket presence, little accuracy on long throws. Beck isn't even really "mobile", the main advantage he's said to have over Rex. Beck does rollouts well, but watching these vids, Beck can't actually get away from anybody when under pressure.

It's not a contest between a pocket QB and a mobile QB. It's a contest between a guy who's a better pocket passer, and a guy who rolls-out / bootlegs better. That's the difference. Shanny seems to be going with the better overall passer, the pocket QB in this case.

[SlkyCaramel]

We couldn't sign free agents until a certain date. That and the rumor Rex wanted starter money that Shanahallen wasn't willing to give him, rightfully. Rex was good enough a teammate to participate in lock-out practices even without a contract.

Beck is 30. He has multiple problems that Rex doesn't: Stares down recievers, no pocket presence, little accuracy on long throws. Beck isn't even really "mobile", the main advantage he's said to have over Rex. Beck does rollouts well, but watching these vids, Beck can't actually get away from anybody when under pressure.

It's not a contest between a pocket QB and a mobile QB. It's a contest between a guy who's a better pocket passer, and a guy who rolls-out / bootlegs better. That's the difference. Shanny seems to be going with the better overall passer, the pocket QB in this case.

Nobody knows who Shanahan is going with (if you're talking about the depth chart you can't possibly think Shanahan is that stupid), but I can't wait until the chooses, cause I'm frankly tired of this subject hijacking every thread on this board (complete with unnecessarily long posts that say nothing at all new).

[tml6157]

The failure to focus on the OL and ensure quality depth is the most obvious missed opportunity so far in the past offseason. The odds are extermely high that lack of OL depth will cost the team dearly this year.

So who are all these young ZBS linemen that we missed out on? Start naming some names. I'm sick of hearing this excuse every season about a position we didn't address.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Nobody knows who Shanahan is going with (if you're talking about the depth chart you can't possibly think Shanahan is that stupid), but I can't wait until the chooses, cause I'm frankly tired of this subject hijacking every thread on this board (complete with unnecessarily long posts that say nothing at all new).

I hear ya' and apologies on my behalf but I did try to end that before it developed FWIW.

Hail.

[Big Will]

I thought Artis Hicks versatility would land him a spot on the team. He could step in at tackle and guard if needs be. As it is, we have no back up guards and I don't buy it for a minute that it is going to stay that way. I think we bring someone in.

It looks like if Chester or Licht gets injured the thought is to switch Montgomery to guard and start Cook at center. Which, I don't know about anyone else, but that worries the hell out of me.

[HailGreen28]

Nobody knows who Shanahan is going with (if you're talking about the depth chart you can't possibly think Shanahan is that stupid), but I can't wait until the chooses, cause I'm frankly tired of this subject hijacking every thread on this board (complete with unnecessarily long posts that say nothing at all new).

New to you, apparently. The depth chart. Who sat out the last preseason game. Watching the games. Looking at stats. etc.

[tml6157]

You are simply ignoring all visual proof as to what we have here with these two guys with your postings

Why in the hell would you simply look at how one guy performed against the subpar Colts defense and ignore the much better defense with the Ravens

Or for that matter bring up what Rex might have done in the past?

Look at the here and now if you want to take an honest look at these two players

they have the same lines, same receivers, but yet one guy - your guy - screwed the pooch here with this team

I'm basing my opinion on video evidence of what I can see where as you seem to be more interested in denial, theory, and excuses.

And now are getting defensive which makes this a boring conversation to me

If what they do on the field (with the line your saying is giving up too much pressure that I agree with) doesn't really matter then what exactly does to you?

And this is exactly in line with the topic

The lines been giving up too much pressure that much is certain

So since it seems we don't have a dominating offensive line which QB based on all video evidence we have seen this year gives us the best chance to win?

The answer is Rex Grossman. He might only be a C but if he's a C then Becks a D-

We can argue over who could help the offensive line out there in Free Agency but if your QB's play sucks then will it really matter?

Do you have moeny riding on who the starting QB is? You are getting all worked up for nothing. I'm sure I can go back and find something wrong with every pass Grossman made and something good about every Beck pass like how you did the opposite. You have a biased opinion and that's fine because its your own opinion. Both have their flaws and neither will set the world on fire.

[SlkyCaramel]

New to you, apparently. The depth chart. Who sat out the last preseason game. Watching the games. Looking at stats. etc.

As I said, nobody knows. You just THINK you do.

Back to the actual topic of the thread, the O-line, switching Montgomery to guard and Cook at center doesn't sound like a great situation to me either.

[Chump Bailey]

I thought Artis Hicks versatility would land him a spot on the team. He could step in at tackle and guard if needs be. As it is, we have no back up guards and I don't buy it for a minute that it is going to stay that way. I think we bring someone in.

Hicks sucks and has sucked since he arrived. Sucking at 2 positions won't help

Cook can play OG/C and we have 2 reserve OT's. I agree with you in that we should be looking for more interior help though

[Voice_of_Reason]

They played well as a unit at the end of last year. Something to keep in mind is that players CAN improve. Brown is going to be healthier, Montgomery is a huge upgrade from Rabach, Leich is in his second year in the system, and they have a new RG.

Just because they were average last year doesn't mean that they have to be average this year. The difference between this year and years past is that they are finding guys who fit the scheme they want to run, and then teaching them how to run it.

I actually am reasonably comfortable with the OL starters. The backups concern me greatly, but it's hard to overturn an entire roster in one off season. They HAD to fix the WRs, RBs, OLB, DL and secondary. They also addressed some of the OL from the starter perspective.

Unfortunately, the depth that they had that they were counting on stepping up and competing for roster spots didn't materialize. So, now they find themselves thin.

But I think that they'll add another OG for depth some time before the end of the day tomorrow. I really believe that they will not go into this week with 8 WRs and no OL depth.

[Skinzfever2010]

I'm sorry but I don't have a good feeling about week 1. With OJ, Landry, and Chris possibly sitting out and our oline/secondary being a huge question mark, I just don't feel good. This team has always had our number and we already have holes and question marks in critical positions.

QB = question mark if its BECK.... Rex is Rex (Smh)

Oline = question mark

Secondary = holes (against the Giants receivers... sigh)

TE = up in the air. If we can't get our run game going we're ****ed six days till Sunday. No way we open up passing and beat NYG

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Don't apologize for realism Skinz. I feel exactly the same way.

The biggest single concern this week as regards NY is Otogwe's health. If he can't go, on top of Landry being ruled out, Eli and co. could well have a field day in the passing game.

This could be another Giants game that gets ugly quick.

Hail.

[Oldfan]

Don't apologize for realism Skinz. I feel exactly the same way.

The biggest single concern this week as regards NY is Otogwe's health. If he can't go, on top of Landry being ruled out, Eli and co. could well have a field day in the passing game.

This could be another Giants game that gets ugly quick.

Hail.

I think you might be making the same mistake that I make repeatedly. I see the holes on this team, dwell on them, and persistently forget that all NFL teams have holes. The Giants certainly do.

[Skinzfever2010]

Don't apologize for realism Skinz. I feel exactly the same way.

The biggest single concern this week as regards NY is Otogwe's health. If he can't go, on top of Landry being ruled out, Eli and co. could well have a field day in the passing game.

This could be another Giants game that gets ugly quick.

Hail.

If there both out, our strongest asset in the secondary is our playmaker/risk taker CB who can't cover. And with no safety blankets protecting us there is a good chance Eli will throw anywhere he wants on us Sunday. The scary part is there strength is the run. They still have their 1/2 punch of Big Beast, little Beast in the backfield.

It could get ugly on 9/11

Hail!