Why Mike Doesn’t Give a Rat’s Ass About Your Bandwagon Opinion on John Beck

[Mahons21]

I heard the same but the 2nd part of the story is that Skins didn't want to pay him much. Why not sign the dude for the veteran minimum for a few years, a million dollars is peanuts for a QB these days.

Because he didn't want to. That contract essentially gives the team the rights to him, and they can cut him at any point, with little to no hit against the salary cap. This way he holds some of the cards this offseason.

And if they wanted him bad, why not give him more money to get him to sign a longer contract?

I don't think they wanted him that badly, but I do think they wanted him. I don't think they gave him a longer contract with more guaranteed $, because I don't think he's proven enough to deserve it yet.

[Skinsinparadise]

Because he didn't want to. That contract essentially gives the team the rights to him, and they can cut him at any point, with little to no hit against the salary cap. This way he holds some of the cards this offseason.

Chris Russell covering the team said that Grossman wasn't signing right away during free agency because he wanted more money. He wanted to get paid "starters" money. The Redskins clearly didn't want to give him starters money. If he thinks he deserves starters money and the Skins are offering him the veteran minimum it makes sense to only want a one year contract so you can find you want to earn bigger money.

I don't think they wanted him that badly, but I do think they wanted him. I don't think they gave him a longer contract with more guaranteed $, because I don't think he's proven enough to deserve it yet.

They signed Grossman initially as a backup QB. Why wouldn't they like him in that role now -- didn't Todd Collins get a multiple year contract as a backup? If that's their thinking, i don't know, I am just saying its feasible to me that they like to keep a veteran guy who knows the system around as a backup -- and the type of money they were offering seems consistent with that.

[darrelgreenie]

I am not comparing Vick and Beck but to be on point with the media, do you guys recall anyone saying when he was signed that Vick will turn into the best QB for the Eagles and hit his stride at 30? Nope, they didn't. I presume Andy Reid didn't care. And Shanny has made it clear that he doesn't care with the conventional media thought process here is with Beck.

The fickle nature of sports media/fans at large was even more pronounced with Vick to the point where it seemed like they developed a strong case of revisionist history.

Suddenly everyone was talking as if Vick was never a good a QB and sports mediots were openly discussing Vick as a RB, WR or Wildcat only QB.

---------- Post added August-17th-2011 at 05:55 PM ----------

As someone has already pointed out, they offered Rex a longer deal, he didn't want it. It was his decision to make it a 1-yr deal, and they had to meet him half way, because it's not exactly like they're paying him starting QB $.

What's this talk of the Redskin's offering a multi-year deal?

Never heard that at all.

JI Halsell reported that Rex said he had multi-year offers from other teams but that he chose to sign a 1 year deal here.

---------- Post added August-17th-2011 at 06:02 PM ----------

Of course I could be wrong about this. Probably am. But that's some of the stuff I notice that's formulated purely on my own opinions. And for the record, I like a lot more about John Beck than I don't. I do like Rex a bit more, though, I won't lie.

If you don't mind I gonna re-post this into another thread?

You're one of the few posters that's pointed to something non-circumstantial as a rationale against Beck.

(Other then the false weak arm perception which most people fall back on)

BTW Do you think these observations are enough to make you/others believe that Beck can't play?

I don't disagree with all the observations but they seem more like nit-picks then out and out black marks all QBs are gonna have some areas where they need to improve.

For me I would need to see some major flaws to believe that a prospect cannot play at the NFL level and I don't think Beck has displayed those.

---------- Post added August-17th-2011 at 06:24 PM ----------

I do believe that Shanahan likes Beck ... it's not total B.S. at all. I just find it hard to believe that the decision was made for a guy who hasn't ever played a live snap for Shanahan. That's just reckless, and I don't see Shanahan as a reckless guy.

Open competition? Sure. Open competition, hoping Beck will win? Maybe so. Beck's the starter before he ever takes a preseason snap in competition ... is reckless.

Mike/Kyle/Rex/Beck all maintain its an open competition the entire concept of naming or annointing a starter is a media invention.

You mean Mike/Kyle haven't seen Beck take a live rep in a regular season game.

They've certainly watched him closely in practice and in pre-season and I sure they have an accurate evaluation of his skillset based on these evaluations.

QBs are drafted on far less information.

---------- Post added August-17th-2011 at 06:32 PM ----------

Trading for McNabb was clearly a mistake but at least he admitted the mistake and moved on quickly rather than trying to save face and keep banging our collective heads against that wall. On Gabbert I was right on his bandwagon and thought we should have drafted him but it's way early to hold that as evidence against Mike - Gabbert could be a bust and even if he does well with the Jags there's no guarantee he would have done well here.

There is far more evidence to look at which suggests Mike knows what he is doing with QBs and offense in general than the opposite. no one bats 1.000 though.

I don't think the McNabb situation was a typically 'failure'.

Imo McNabb and Mike/Kyle are too good respectively for their marriage to fail based on anything other bad fit/personality conflict.

I guess we'll never know.

[Mahons21]

Chris Russell covering the team said that Grossman wasn't signing right away during free agency because he wanted more money. He wanted to get paid "starters" money. The Redskins clearly didn't want to give him starters money. If he thinks he deserves starters money and the Skins are offering him the veteran minimum it makes sense to only want a one year contract so you can find you want to earn bigger money.

It makes sense for Rex, yes.

They signed Grossman initially as a backup QB. Why wouldn't they like him in that role now -- didn't Todd Collins get a multiple year contract as a backup? If that's their thinking, i don't know, I am just saying its feasible to me that they like to keep a veteran guy who knows the system around as a backup -- and the type of money they were offering seems consistent with that.

1.) I'm not saying they don't like Grossman as a backup there's a 50% chance he is, and he knows the system.

2.) They were offering him what he was worth, if he was offered a better opportunity elsewhere than he would have gone. You don't have to pay your starting QB starter money if no one else will, Bruce Allen seems to understand the NFL market extremely well, in my opinion.

If their pay was indicative of their position on the team, Beck would be behind Grossman.

---------- Post added August-17th-2011 at 07:03 PM ----------

What's this talk of the Redskin's offering a multi-year deal?

Never heard that at all.

JI Halsell reported that Rex said he had multi-year offers from other teams but that he chose to sign a 1 year deal here.

One of the posters mentioned it a page or two back, I took them on their word. Maybe I shouldn't have..

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

I think I’m inside Mike Shanahan’s head on how he thinks about QBs because we think alike. He thinks as a scout would. He’s grading what he can see, the tangibles. He also looks for intelligence and work ethic. And, that’s about it.

He knows that there is a substantial unpredictable factor, so he looks for underrated QBs who can be had for bargain prices in compensation and draft picks to limit his investment.

He isn’t sure Beck can cut it because of the unpredictable factor. But to the extent that QBs are predictable, he’s sure he has made a good decision. John Beck has what it takes as far as Mike can see.

That sounds great, except that McNabb was the total opposite of this philosophy. Based on what we've heard, McNabb did not impress with "intelligence and work ethic" and was if anything overrated rather than underrated. You didn't like the McNabb pickup, as I recall. But now you're inside Shanahan's head?

One thing McNabb, Beck and Clemens all have in common is being opportunistic pickups. Not long before they were acquired, few would predict that they'd be available ... at least not so soon. McNabb: traded 18 days before the draft. Beck: traded during training camp. Clemens became expendable only after the 7th round of the draft (when McElroy was picked), so the Redskins couldn't seriously have been planning to skip drafting a QB so they could get Clemens instead.

It's like Mike Shanahan is driving a few miles through town to church on Sunday, sees a pretty woman standing by a crosswalk, pulls over, opens the door and asks her to jump in. "Where are we going?" she asks. "We're getting married!" Shanahan says, all grins. It's all part of the plan, right?

Kyle Shanahan was reportedly roommates with Rex Grossman on road games with the Texans. Kyle was the offensive coordinator when Grossman signed with the Texans in July 2009. This despite Kyle "I stand on tables for John Beck!" Shanahan being aware that John Beck had been released by the Dolphins on April 27 the same year, and was freely available. (Beck signed with the Ravens in May.) In January 2010, Kyle Shanahan joined the Redskins, and two months later, Grossman signed with the Redskins. See a pattern?

If I had to guess, Kyle Shanahan likes Rex Grossman a whole lot more than Mike Shanahan does. So, if we replay that Sunday drive to the church, imagine that it's Rex Grossman waiting at the altar, and the whole thing's been set up by Kyle. Mike Shanahan manages to pull the car over for 5 different "pretty women" on the way to church that day:

1. Sam Bradford (too expensive)
   
2. Donovan McNabb (who never had a choice)
   
3. John Beck (standing alone)
   
4. Jake Locker (picked up by some guy 2 cars ahead! Dammit!)
   
5. Kellen Clemens (standing alone)
   

Something about Rex Grossman rubs Shanahan the wrong way, I think. So, he's become opportunistic in trying to find alternatives. It just hasn't worked out very well.

See what Rich Tandler and Ryan O'Halloran has to say in this CSN video today, about John Beck' practice and the upcoming game:

Tandler: "I think they're going to start real slow with him. A lot of short passes, a lot of rhytm passes. They're going to take it easy.... They're going to take some baby steps."

O'Halloran: "Judging from the practices this week, when Beck's been in there, the ball is BARELY passing the line of scrimmage. Maybe get him on the move with some bootlegs and stuff."

Now, that would be kid glove treatment even for a 7th round draft pick. Greg McElroy played 3 quarters against the Texans, and had no such kid gloves. So, Beck is supposed to go from tricycle practice to starting against the New York Giants in 3 weeks?

I don't buy it. Beck is a long way from being a starting QB for the Redskins, from almost all camp observations I've heard. He may be a great guy, but come on. Passes barely crossing the line of scrimmage, three weeks before the Giants game? This is our starting QB?

My guess is that Rex Grossman's agent has a Saturday morning meeting already scheduled with Bruce Allen. You know, just to chat about the game on Friday night.

[darrelgreenie]

See what Rich Tandler and Ryan O'Halloran has to say in this CSN video today, about John Beck' practice and the upcoming game:

Now, that would be kid glove treatment even for a 7th round draft pick. Greg McElroy played 3 quarters against the Texans, and had no such kid gloves. So, Beck is supposed to go from tricycle practice to starting against the New York Giants in 3 weeks?

I don't buy it. Beck is a long way from being a starting QB for the Redskins, from almost all camp observations I've heard. He may be a great guy, but come on. Passes barely crossing the line of scrimmage, three weeks before the Giants game? This is our starting QB?

You put a lot of faith in the opinions of guys like Tandler only to shoot them down.

Why would Beck be handled with kid gloves?

You only have to look to last preseason to know that won't be the case, and back then he barely knew the playbook.

2nd The sports media at our training camp know as much about what they're looking at as any random tweeter that attended.

Meaning they don't know what they're looking at.

We all have our hunches, but your knocks against the viability of Beck have very little to do with his actual abilities only his circumstances.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

We all have our hunches, but your knocks against the viability of Beck have very little to do with his actual abilities only his circumstances.

If you replace "circumstances" with "practice reports," I agree with you. It has appeared from most practice reports (even the voluntary player practices), that Beck hasn't been as sharp as Grossman, and specifically his deep ball and accuracy have been off a lot. It feels like the game planning for Friday is to get him comfortable playing with the starters ... and avoid a bad performance. We'll see if that's the actual plan, and we'll see how he performs.

I charted his college stats, and I believe Beck had great ability (and performance) in college, his last two years. He scored well in my model those years, not so well his sophomore year. He was a solid NFL prospect, and is by all accounts a great guy and shows some good leadership and humility. I'd be very happy to see John Beck become a great starting QB for the Redskins. Or a great backup QB for that matter.

But, the performance should be showing up by now. Camp reports suggest it hasn't. I'm looking forward to seeing his performance with my own eyes.

I want the best quarterback to win, and that's my dog in this fight. At this point, it looks like Grossman. Grossman scored much better in my sophomore model, and this remains my best predictor of future NFL performance. So I've got higher confidence in Grossman. But that doesn't mean I'm ragging on Beck. I'll be rooting for a strong performance on Friday.

[TSO]

This is what I call some good old fashioned Oldfan ownage. You go boy. I mean, old man. :cool:

I must say, I get surprised by how many doubters there are of Shanahan and his QB evaluation skills. There are three things I feel extremely comfortable with Shanahan's choices on and wouldn't dare second guess them: QBs, RBs and Olinemen. I think he also got better at evaluating WRs the last 5 years of his career as opposed to earlier on. So, yeah, I don't care who is QBing this team... I'm extremely comfortable with the Shanahan's and their offensive system to believe that they'll put the right guy in there, and if he's not the right guy, they'll change it fast.

[Hitman21ST]

This is what I call some good old fashioned Oldfan ownage. You go boy. I mean, old man. :cool:

I must say, I get surprised by how many doubters there are of Shanahan and his QB evaluation skills. There are three things I feel extremely comfortable with Shanahan's choices on and wouldn't dare second guess them: QBs, RBs and Olinemen. I think he also got better at evaluating WRs the last 5 years of his career as opposed to earlier on. So, yeah, I don't care who is QBing this team... I'm extremely comfortable with the Shanahan's and their offensive system to believe that they'll put the right guy in there, and if he's not the right guy, they'll change it fast.

Out of curiosity, where did the quote in your sig come from? It's outstanding.

[1198skinsfuture]

I don't think it's a "bandwagon opinion" that a guy like Tom Brady is altogether a better quarterback than Marc Bulger, whether you're looking at him from a scouting perspective or not. Tom Brady's accomplishments are greater (three Super Bowl rings, 2 Super Bowl MVP's, 6 Pro Bowls, 2 NFL MVPs to Bulger's no rings and 2 Pro Bowls), his pedigree and accomplishments coming out off college were better, he's got a better arm than Bulger, he's more fundamentally sound than Bulger, he's done significantly more than Bulger with signficantly less (Brady never had Faulk in the backfield and Bruce and Holt outside in their prime).

i think and believe strongly that tom brady is a system qb...take away belichecks system and brady is an average joe

comparisons when tom brady got his knee torn up and out for the year Cassell came in and the patriots still went 11-5 and take away the system from cassell and he was/is nothing but a game manager stats prove:

2008 NE 16 327 516 63.4 3,693 7.16 21 76 11 5

2009 KC 15 271 493 55.0 2,924 5.93 16 61 16 5

[MartinC]

I don't think the McNabb situation was a typically 'failure'.

Imo McNabb and Mike/Kyle are too good respectively for their marriage to fail based on anything other bad fit/personality conflict.

I guess we'll never know.

I don't think we will ever know either, but whatever the ins and outs of it the trade was a mistake given the outcome.

[KCClybun]

i think and believe strongly that tom brady is a system qb...take away belichecks system and brady is an average joe

comparisons when tom brady got his knee torn up and out for the year Cassell came in and the patriots still went 11-5 and take away the system from cassell and he was/is nothing but a game manager stats prove:

2008 NE 16 327 516 63.4 3,693 7.16 21 76 11 5

2009 KC 15 271 493 55.0 2,924 5.93 16 61 16 5

Heh-heh, it's funny how you completely ignored is 2010 stats to prove your point. Or the fact that Cassel had been a back-up for Tom Brady for four years and was well versed in the system before hand, and that he wasn't some random Joe Schmoe who came off the benched and performed.

15 starts, 3,116 yards, 27 touchdowns, 7 interceptions, 58.2 completion percentage, a 10-6 record and a division championship in 2010. And he only missed one game because he had to get his appendix removed. And then came back and played the next week. Yeah, I'd say Cassel's not sweating bullets right now over some jabroni on the internet calling him a system quarterback after a Pro Bowl season.

For frak's sake...all these quarterbacks are system quarterbacks. How many quarterbacks do you know that switch offenses or coordinators every couple years? They all learn and perfect one offense and they very much like that ONE system. Every quarterback has a friggin' green dot on his head now. They're ALL system quarterbacks.

When did we stop judging quarterbacks in wins and losses and championship rings and start judging them on stats and whether or not they're "system" quarterbacks?

[1198skinsfuture]

before cassell was in the system where was he? that man never started a game in college...brady along with cassell thrived due to the system OOOh and what system do they run in KC? the same system so it was kinda moronic to throw stats up there...for that i apologize...id love to see tom brady in a different system---will not be the same 'TOM BRADY'

Manning on the other hand...well its hard to find a comparison for manning because he never misses games but after they take manning out of the games when they locked up the bye week, ooo thats right they let the jets make the playoffs 2 ears ago...but do you think the colts would win 12 games a yr with Sorgi or any other backup? Not likely

[KCClybun]

So Tom Brady gets dinged because Matt Cassel came in and played well, because Bill Belichick was smart enough to find and develop a back-up quarterback for him that would be able to come in and compete and play effectively, while the Colts kinda aren't?

Okay then.

Not many teams are going to win 12 games a year with their back up quarterback. But I think it's unfair to Brady to suggest that he's a system quarterback and wouldn't be anything outside of Belichick's system because the Patriots were prepared in the event that Brady got hurt.

It doesn't matter anyway. Brady's pretty much already has his bust made for Canton and has accomplished a lot more than either one of us in his life. System quarterback or not, you can't argue with results.

Anyway, back to John Beck.

[Oldfan]

ASF ~ That sounds great, except that McNabb was the total opposite of this philosophy. Based on what we've heard, McNabb did not impress with "intelligence and work ethic" and was if anything overrated rather than underrated. You didn't like the McNabb pickup, as I recall. But now you're inside Shanahan's head?

I can’t explain the McNabb move. If you throw that one out, there’s a pattern.

One thing McNabb, Beck and Clemens all have in common is being opportunistic pickups.

I think all the sources of new roster talent, the draft, free agency, trades, require the ability to recognize and seize opportunities as they present themselves. You can’t, say, plan to build the O-line first.

See what Rich Tandler and Ryan O'Halloran has to say in this CSN video today, about John Beck' practice and the upcoming game... Now, that would be kid glove treatment even for a 7th round draft pick. Greg McElroy played 3 quarters against the Texans, and had no such kid gloves. So, Beck is supposed to go from tricycle practice to starting against the New York Giants in 3 weeks?

Beck is coming off a groin pull, so they might be limiting his activity as a precaution. I’ve had groin pulls. They can be aggravated easily.

In any case, I don’t take comments about practices seriously as a rule.

---------- Post added August-18th-2011 at 05:35 AM ----------

This is what I call some good old fashioned Oldfan ownage. You go boy. I mean, old man. :cool:

I must say, I get surprised by how many doubters there are of Shanahan and his QB evaluation skills. There are three things I feel extremely comfortable with Shanahan's choices on and wouldn't dare second guess them: QBs, RBs and Olinemen. I think he also got better at evaluating WRs the last 5 years of his career as opposed to earlier on. So, yeah, I don't care who is QBing this team... I'm extremely comfortable with the Shanahan's and their offensive system to believe that they'll put the right guy in there, and if he's not the right guy, they'll change it fast.

Except for the Mcnabb trade, which made no sense to me on any level, I have never doubted Mike Shanahan's evaluation of QBs. When he talks QBs, I hang on every word.

I doubted Mike's willingness to even try to build a championship roster, but this offseason erased those doubts. I don't agree with all the moves, but what do I know?

I don't know if he has the ability to build a championship team, but as long as he's trying, I'll support him.

[TSO]

[/color]Except for the Mcnabb trade, which made no sense to me on any level, I have never doubted Mike Shanahan's evaluation of QBs. When he talks QBs, I hang on every word.

I doubted his willingness to even try to build a championship roster, but this offseason erased those doubts. I don't agree with all the moves, but what do I know?

I don't know if he has the ability to build a championship team, but as long as he's trying, I'll support him.

Sounds good to me. As for McNabb, I still think it wasn't a bad decision. We all assume that Mike didn't know McNabb had short-throw accuracy issues, or that he was a bit lethargic in terms of tempo... maybe he did. Maybe he saw how McNabb answered the Eagles and Andy Reid when he benched him a few years back and thought that, by the Eagles trading him, McNabb will have that fire again to prove his doubters wrong and will do everything the Shanahan's ask of him to improve his game. He didn't want to do that in the end, and if this was the case (I don't think it's far-fetched to assume it was) Mike quickly righted his wrong and moved on. I just don't see how trying to get a franchise QB in that you feel can last you at least 3-4 years is foolish... McNabb does have the ability to evade pressure, he can still move better than most QBs in the league, and he's not as inaccurate as many claim... so I don't think it was such a longshot to bring him in. In the end, it was a mistake, but that's in hindsight.

Anyway, we've beaten this dead horse enough, lol... I'm looking forward to seeing how Grossman and Beck compete with each other. I still believe Grossman is our QB and all the Beck talk was because Grossman wanted a bigger contract than he was worth, but what do I know?

---------- Post added August-18th-2011 at 04:07 AM ----------

Out of curiosity, where did the quote in your sig come from? It's outstanding.

It was in a recent article by Hogshaven.com I believe. Let me see if I can find it for you.

*Edit* Here it is: http://www.hogshaven.com/2011/8/14/2363026/mike-shanahan-sheds-light-on-his-interview-with-dan-snyder

Enjoy. It's even better than my sig, since there's another sentence to the quote I couldn't fit.

[Skinsinparadise]

See what Rich Tandler and Ryan O'Halloran has to say in this CSN video today, about John Beck' practice and the upcoming game:

Passes barely crossing the line of scrimmage, three weeks before the Giants game? This is our starting QB? My guess is that Rex Grossman's agent has a Saturday morning meeting already scheduled with Bruce Allen. You know, just to chat about the game on Friday night.

I've read most of O'Halloran's practice reports and all of John Keim's practice reports and this one isn't consistent with the rest of the stuff I read. In fact, I recall Keim talking about Beck overthrowing the deep ball. I am not doubting that in THAT practice they were referring to there were a lot of short passes but I've read plenty about deep balls thrown by both QBs. Keim in particular is very specific with his reports, he will tell you which Wrs dropped the passes, etc.

[LD0506]

Whether or not Beck succeeds doesn't alter the fact that Shanahan knows QBs. It's ludicrous to believe that he is just giving Beck a shot as a gift with no basis in reality.

This is going to be fun season no matter how things play out.

[s0crates]

Whether or not Beck succeeds doesn't alter the fact that Shanahan knows QBs. It's ludicrous to believe that he is just giving Beck a shot as a gift with no basis in reality.

This is going to be fun season no matter how things play out.

I agree with this.

The very fact that there is a question about who will start says a lot about what Shanny thinks of Beck. He is giving Beck a shot because he sees something in him, that much is beyond doubt.

The competition should be fun to watch.

[Conn]

I can't wait to see Beck tomorrow, and then compare it to Grossman's outing vs. the Steelers. I really hope he does well.

[mossomo]

I can't wait to see Beck tomorrow

The kid has some moxy. Hope it translates to NFL. I think this is his final college play:

. Hope he brings his A game. We're all watching.

And totally non-related but I came across this looking at Beck vids:

, the first few thirty secs are all you need before it goes to football highlights unrelated.

[Going Commando]

I don't think we will ever know either, but whatever the ins and outs of it the trade was a mistake given the outcome.

Absolutely. We took a big hit in 2010 draft value for a below average year of QB play. I don't see how anyone could consider the trade anything but a failure.

I was antsy about the deal at the time, tried to talk myself into it as the year began, but felt in my heart it was a bad idea. Trading first or second round picks for players over 30 is pretty much always a bad idea. I struggle to come up with an example where a trade like that netted good value in return. It's just something that shouldn't be done.

[TheItalianStallion]

I just want to chime in and say that this thread is making me very interested in tomorrow's game. I'm not sure I've ever been this curious about a preseason game before.

[BigMike619]

jay cutler was always overhyped and still is.

[Oldfan]

I just want to chime in and say that this thread is making me very interested in tomorrow's game. I'm not sure I've ever been this curious about a preseason game before.

That's good. I felt the same even before writing the OP, and I've been watching Redskins' preseasons since long before you were born.