Why are people against the players on this?

[ardowling]

This is what I do not get. Suppose I had a boss and his income was based primarily on my talent, there is very little risk of loss of investment. Suppose that Boss and 10 of his partners made 1 billion dollars off my talent, and paid me 10 million. Although I am paid well, I am generally being exploited. Someone with power takes the majority of the money for doing almost no work except hiring lawyers to sell me.

Why would anyone begrudge the 10 million dollar man getting a FAIR portion of the wealth his talent generates. Regardless of the millionaire vs. billionaire argument, most players will not play long, be injured and will not remain millionaires, Those that have long careers will likely die earlier and have severe physical and mental handicaps. The owners suffer none of this do little work and remain rich.

I like football too, but principals are more important that entertainment.

Burger king is hiring and I bet I can find someone to replace you....so much for your principles:)

[cjbrown]

You do not have to be in indentured servitude to want or deserve a fair split of the wealth your talent generates. As far as no one put a gun to your head argument that is like saying: It is ok to exploit someone because the industry is manipulated by crooks. Kinda like saying to the old singers that used to get taken advantage or that is ok. Or if you go to a bank and they all offer you exploitative interest rates that is ok you dont have to have a car or a house. None of these arguments justify gross exploitation. If you have talent you have a right to try to make money from it. Because someone with power controls the jobs, does not imply it is not noble to fight for a fair share of what your talent generates. The argument that they don't have to do it sounds good but does not stand up to scrutiny.

If I have a job and my employer cheats me is he justified in doing so because he owns the plant. No! He can do it, because he has the power, but that is why people fight and organize so they can change this.

[ardowling]

Like I said Burger King is hiring. Have a nice day:)

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

The way I see it is that the players are getting paid to play a game. This game generates BILLIONS of dollars. Playing this game puts these players health at great risk. The average career is only a few years. The players want to get as much of the pie that they generate while they can.

I'm with the players.

Now when it comes to the NBA, I'm actually more inclined to be on the owners side there. But that's a whole different beast and in a much, MUCH worse state.

[cjbrown]

You are correct sir. Blue collar workers often do work hard. However, the 10% raise and signing bonus is not the players fault. It is the consumer's, and the advertisers that give up this kind of money to owners via network contracts. We continue to pay the money. The 10% is just what the industry generates, not an indication of players greed.

---------- Post added July-22nd-2011 at 09:10 PM ----------

Like I said Burger King is hiring. Have a nice day

And anyone brave enough to take a job at Burger King in order to be responsible and not sit home and accept charity should be lifted up not put down.

[ardowling]

Ah you miss understood what I was saying (or maybe not who really gives a ****) the point is if you don't like the terms of employment then don't accept the job, I know of hundreds of thousands of great Americans who wrote a blank check to this country for a hell of of a lot less than these folks are making and risked a hell of a lot more than these spoiled superstars and yet both had a choice when it came time to sign a contract you could say yes or no. Oh and don't give me your put down BS I would gladly take a job at BK if means my family gets to eat, would you?

[glongest]

Why are people against the players on this?

Call it a hunch but might have somthing to do with players like Trent Williams buying $150,000 gawky jewelry and then complaining about wanting more money. Don't think the average Joe busting their butt to pay the mortgage or spending 20% of what they made that week to attend a football game on Sunday are very sympathetic with their plight.

[ardowling]

Oh on an off thread moment lets wish our Norwegian friends Gods Speed and prayers for all they are going through:(

[Destino]

There is electronic document control around now. You can do a look across in seconds and see changes - its not something you have to pour over for hours.

I do think there is an issue about getting the players to understand what they are voting on. But that was always going to be an issue - the Union should have been prepared for this and it seems to all now be a big surprise.

It's an incredibly valuable decade long agreement and you want to put your faith in electronic document control? This is even assuming that the final is close enough to the control allowing the tool to work. The owners took their time writing it and allowing the players time to review it is not unreasonable. There is no way in hell I'd trust software on a deal like this. A team of lawyers would be reading the entire thing... 5 times each.

[Popeman38]

What have the owners "given"? Take a look at the existing CBA, and the one the owners are proposing, and identify the places where the owners have given to the players. It ain't much.

1) Lifetime healthcare

2) Between $900M and $1B in retired player benefits

3) Loss of 5 OTAs

4) Vets get all the money taken by rookie pay scale

5) No more full contact two-a-days

6) Less contact practices during season

7) More days off

8) Better retirement benefits

9) All revenue shared, no $1B off the top

10) Salary floor of 89% of the cap for all teams

11) NFL wide spend of 99% of the cap in cash

12) Players earn UFA at 4 years instead of 6

13) 14 total practices with pads after reg season starts. 14

14) Take discipline away from commish and award to a panel with one member a former judge

15) Each player can only be franchised once in a career

Do I need to go on?

[ardowling]

I think the owners and the players took their time writing it and the lawyers (I really ****ing hate lawyers) signed off on it but no one told the players (DSmith) Surprise!!

[dfbovey]

The owners just agreed to this. You can't just expect the players to agree to it right away. There are probably countless pages to sift through. All the lawyers have to carefully read over it to make sure something wasn't "slipped in", by the owners. Guys, this is a little more than buying a car. It takes time.

And this by no means is saying I am taking one side or the other. I blame both parties--equally. There's no reason that this whole process should have taken this long. Especially considering I heard its basically the same deal that was on the table in March.

I think it's an incredibly ridiculous notion that the players are just now seeing this deal. What the **** have they been negotiating all this time? If they didn't know what the deal entailed then D Smith is doing a piss poor job of communicating to his people what's going on. I've never seen such an incredible load of crap in my life than what I'm seeing from the players right now.

[skinsfan4128]

I think it's an incredibly ridiculous notion that the players are just now seeing this deal. What the **** have they been negotiating all this time? If they didn't know what the deal entailed then D Smith is doing a piss poor job of communicating to his people what's going on. I've never seen such an incredible load of crap in my life than what I'm seeing from the players right now.

Bovey, you hit the nail on the head here. There's absolutely no way that Smith did not have a clue about not knowing what was on the deal. Hell, he had been chatting up Goodell like they were best buds. This makes no sense to act like they have no idea what the owners voted on. It's just plain ridiculous.

---------- Post added July-22nd-2011 at 09:30 PM ----------

1) Lifetime healthcare

2) Between $900M and $1B in retired player benefits

3) Loss of 5 OTAs

4) Vets get all the money taken by rookie pay scale

5) No more full contact two-a-days

6) Less contact practices during season

7) More days off

8) Better retirement benefits

9) All revenue shared, no $1B off the top

10) Salary floor of 89% of the cap for all teams

11) NFL wide spend of 99% of the cap in cash

12) Players earn UFA at 4 years instead of 6

13) 14 total practices with pads after reg season starts. 14

14) Take discipline away from commish and award to a panel with one member a former judge

15) Each player can only be franchised once in a career

Do I need to go on?

Great post, Pope. To state the owners haven't given much is ludicrous, to say the least. At this point, the onus is on the players for holding this thing up. Furthermore, how come these players take to tweeting and being interviewed, venting frustration, but not having any credible information to base their frustrations on? These players seem clueless as to what's going on, and that seems to indicate that Smith is having a failure to communicate.

[cjbrown]

Ah you miss understood what I was saying (or maybe not who really gives a ****) the point is if you don't like the terms of employment then don't accept the job, I know of hundreds of thousands of great Americans who wrote a blank check to this country for a hell of of a lot less than these folks are making and risked a hell of a lot more than these spoiled superstars and yet both had a choice when it came time to sign a contract you could say yes or no. Oh and don't give me your put down BS I would gladly take a job at BK if means my family gets to eat, would you?

As an American you have the legal and moral right to negotiate the terms of employment. It is not either take it or leave it. That is why Unions were allowed even in the midst of the cold war, because of gross exploitation by individuals and corporations. That is why we have antitrust law because the abuse is and was not in the interests of the country, but of individual entities. As far as blank checks go I am a veteran, I work in the community I volunteer in the inner city urban areas. I don't just talk it I do it. I will not question your integrity I assume you mean the best. peace cb

---------- Post added July-22nd-2011 at 11:16 PM ----------

This is understandable, but who controls the flow of information. Those who have power. The system is designed to benefit those in power. With a little research I suspect you could find many worst extravagances among the owners when they were his age and beyond..

---------- Post added July-22nd-2011 at 11:18 PM ----------

Also, not sure that the electronic document is the legal equivalent of the paper document or is it required to be an exact duplicate of the paper document legally. There are billions at stake, they need to take as much time as they need.

---------- Post added July-22nd-2011 at 11:22 PM ----------

Have you every seen a collective bargaining agreement or negotiate or written aspects of one? I have! They can be hundred or thousands of pages governing everything from work areas to lighting to leave, pay and everything in between. Most employees that work under one have not thoroughly read them, so I dont expect the players to be up on all the changes. We are talking about a several hundred page legal document. They will have to hire lawyers to read and advise them on this.

[worstSeat]

Now when it comes to the NBA, I'm actually more inclined to be on the owners side there. But that's a whole different beast and in a much, MUCH worse state.

No doubt. That's because they're getting paid over market rate. NBA owners can't help themselves. Bill Simmons does a great job pointing out the 9th men making millions who aren't worth close to that.

The only place players in the NFL are overpaid are in the first half or so of the first round of the draft. You can argue a few additional cases here and there (Fat Al is one, obviously), but remember that they've mostly done their time. Even Haynesworth has given more to the league than he's gotten out, it's just that now that he's getting close to what he gave, he's stopped giving. Sapp's argument about players in helmets isn't that far off.

And all you folks who keep listing numbers and say the athletes are only playing a game need to go to open tryouts. Many of these guys have a heck of a lot better option than Burger King as a professional backup, and as cjbrown says, even if you didn't, that's nothing to berate. But they can play football, and we as fans will hemorrhage cash to watch that. They're worth the cash.

Again, they're worth the cash because we as fans make players worth their paychecks and much more. The NFL is a can't lose league. Nobody's losing money. Not even Jacksonville, apparently. The players should bargain as hard as they want to get MLB like freedom. Why should Snyder take home all those trucks of cash? What did he do to earn the money other than have it?

As if none of you have strong-armed your boss at the yearly review, or gone to another job if they didn't cave, regardless of if you were making a living wage already. You bargain your worth, folks. We're the ones that say these players are worth it.

[MartinC]

It's an incredibly valuable decade long agreement and you want to put your faith in electronic document control? This is even assuming that the final is close enough to the control allowing the tool to work. The owners took their time writing it and allowing the players time to review it is not unreasonable. There is no way in hell I'd trust software on a deal like this. A team of lawyers would be reading the entire thing... 5 times each.

Both teams of lawyers wrote the damn thing and it will have gone through hundreds of minor alterations which are recorded electronically. They will be on version 100 by now. At all stages changes will have been checked. This final draft will be electronically certified and if the owners did make an changes to the draft they voted on based on the last version the Union had those changes will be obvious in seconds.

The point I was making was that saying we don't have a copy of what the owners voted on is clearly nonsense given the Unions lawyers were involved in drafting it and then saying we need to have time to read through it is also nonsense as, again, they have been part of drafting and agreeing what's in it.

They need to decide now if they are going to accept it. If they need time to discuss all this internally and if there are differences of opinion fine. Just say that don't tell me the delay is because the nasty owners hoodwinked us or because we have not seen the document and need time to read what they want us to agree to - to me that's not credible and it's making the players and their leadership look like amateurs IMO.

[NewCliche21]

It's an incredibly valuable decade long agreement and you want to put your faith in electronic document control? This is even assuming that the final is close enough to the control allowing the tool to work. The owners took their time writing it and allowing the players time to review it is not unreasonable. There is no way in hell I'd trust software on a deal like this. A team of lawyers would be reading the entire thing... 5 times each.

Destino, I love your posts, but man, I can't tell you how ridiculous this one reads.

[JimboDaMan]

1) Lifetime healthcare

2) Between $900M and $1B in retired player benefits

3) Loss of 5 OTAs

4) Vets get all the money taken by rookie pay scale

5) No more full contact two-a-days

6) Less contact practices during season

7) More days off

8) Better retirement benefits

9) All revenue shared, no $1B off the top

10) Salary floor of 89% of the cap for all teams

11) NFL wide spend of 99% of the cap in cash

12) Players earn UFA at 4 years instead of 6

13) 14 total practices with pads after reg season starts. 14

14) Take discipline away from commish and award to a panel with one member a former judge

15) Each player can only be franchised once in a career

Do I need to go on?

Let me know when you get to the part that actually gives the players more money. Many of those points reflect a misunderstanding of how the league works. The owners walk away with more money, which was the point of the lockout.

[NewCliche21]

Let me know when you get to the part that actually gives the players more money. Many of those points reflect a misunderstanding of how the league works. The owners walk away with more money, which was the point of the lockout.

:doh:

Numbers 2, 4, 9, 10, 11, 12, and 15 all directly impact the amount of money that the players get.

[JimboDaMan]

:doh:

Numbers 2, 4, 9, 10, 11, 12, and 15 all directly impact the amount of money that the players get.

Think about 12 and 15. No extra money from the teams. Individual players might use those rules to get more money, but ultimately it comes from another player's pocket. Cap is cap. (Actually I think 12 is the same as the old CBA). No doubt it will make it more difficult to fit players under the cap, so it's a concession. But this lockout is not about procedural rules.

11 and 12 might be real concessions. More likely 11 than 12, the great majority of teams spend over 89%. I think the 99% drops to 95% for the final 8 years. How big a concession this is depends on how much they spent in the past, not what the floor was (because if they're spending 95% anyway it's not much of a concession). I don't know that answer.

1 and 2 are real concessions. 4 is just a redistribution of players money, no new money from the owners. Actually I think 2 is partly paid by the rookie cap also. But expanded health care and retiree benefits are real gains for the players.

9 is where the issue lies. Yes, owners "gave up" their $1B off the top. But the players % of the take dropped somewhere around 5-7%. At $10B annual revenue, that comes out to say $6B over the 10-year contract.

#1 and 2 combined couldn't cost more than $2B. That leaves the players, when all is said and done, giving up about $4B. Not to mention the owner proposal requires the players to give up lawsuits for $320M in last year benefits and another suit for lost TV revenue. Players will probably lose the $320M lawsuit, but they'll definitely win the TV revenue one, the question is not if but how many millions.

I'm not sobbing for the players, there's way too much money in play. But this perception that the poor owners have just given so, so much is simply an effective PR ploy that people seem to be buying into.

[dfbovey]

They get more money because teams need to spend a greater portion of their cap. Teams like the Bengals and Bills can no longer be cheap. Why do you think the NFL owners had to meet and agree to a new revenue sharing program? Because some of those small market teams can't afford to meet those new minimums. The players WILL be getting more money. And as the league grows they'll be getting a ridiculous amount of money. I don't see how anyone could sit here and cry foul for the players. The owners really caved on almost every front.

[JimboDaMan]

They get more money because teams need to spend a greater portion of their cap. Teams like the Bengals and Bills can no longer be cheap. Why do you think the NFL owners had to meet and agree to a new revenue sharing program? Because some of those small market teams can't afford to meet those new minimums. The players WILL be getting more money. And as the league grows they'll be getting a ridiculous amount of money. I don't see how anyone could sit here and cry foul for the players. The owners really caved on almost every front.

None of knows the numbers yet. If the pie grows, obviously everybody gets more. When you find somebody crying foul for the players.let me know.

You are missing the point. If the owners caved on almost every front, how is it the players dropped from somewhere between 54-59% of total revenue to less than half?

[IrepDC]

To answer the OP's question: I think there is a little jealousy involved. I've read so many posts basically saying "The players make millions playing a game. I wish I could make millions to play a game. The players' job isn't even that demanding." It kinda annoys me as I know first hand the hard work, dedication, and sacrifice that goes into a football career. There is a reason you see so many rookies in tears on draft day. The majority of these players have literally worked all of their lives to get into the league and earn that money. I don't think many people truly understand though. They just see the result of all the hard work (cars, houses, jewelry) and the envy kicks in.

As far as the CBA deals, I have no problem waiting so that both sides can come to an agreement. A ten year contract is not something you rush in to. I just hope that no games are missed.

[dfbovey]

The players may have been getting between 54-59% of the revenue AFTER the owners took a billion dollars off the top. The owners are no longer taking a billion dollars off the top.

[JimboDaMan]

The players may have been getting between 54-59% of the revenue AFTER the owners took a billion dollars off the top. The owners are no longer taking a billion dollars off the top.

No. I don't know the exact figures. But I believe the players got 59.5% after the $1B owner's reserve, which translated to about 54% with the reserve included. The exact figures are not easy to track down. But in the end, the owners will take in a greater share of the pie.

Otherwise, wouldn't the lockout go into the bucket of all-time stupid moves? Throw out a working agreement, disrupt the entire industry, and come away with less thant you started?