Michele Bachmann is first GOP presidential candidate to sign pledge banning gay marriage, porn.

[Hubbs]

Hold on, Bac. Are you saying that because Bachmann thinks that Medicaid isn't as "strict," so to speak, as she'd like, her husband should simply turn away anyone who's on Medicaid? That doesn't make sense on a number of levels, not the least of which is the fact that her husband has no way of knowing if a patient really "deserves" his/her Medicaid or not unless the patient decides to talk about personal finance, or perhaps drives up in a Porsche. If she criticized the food stamp program for being too easy to manipulate, and she owned a grocery store, would you expect her to simply turn away every family that tried to use stamps to buy food?

[Baculus]

Hold on, Bac. Are you saying that because Bachmann thinks that Medicaid isn't as "strict," so to speak, as she'd like, her husband should simply turn away anyone who's on Medicaid?

No.

That doesn't make sense on a number of levels, not the least of which is the fact that her husband has no way of knowing if a patient really "deserves" his/her Medicaid or not unless the patient decides to talk about personal finance, or perhaps drives up in a Porsche. If she criticized the food stamp program for being too easy to manipulate, and she owned a grocery store, would you expect her to simply turn away every family that tried to use stamps to buy food?

No. That isn't what I said. But it isn't as if the Bachmann counseling clinic is some conventional health care clinic, either.

Have you actually listened to Bachmann and the manner which she has framed government managed health care? Maybe I am one of few people who are familiar with her, hence the reason why her actions seem perfectly ordinary to some people, as if she hasn't stated her positions strongly against these government programs.

[Hubbs]

No.

No. That isn't what I said. But it isn't as if the Bachmann counseling clinic is some conventional health care clinic, either.

Have you actually listened to Bachmann and the manner which she has framed government managed health care? Maybe I am one of few people who are familiar with her, hence the reason why her actions seem perfectly ordinary to some people, as if she hasn't stated her positions strongly against these government programs.

I've heard her talk about Obamacare and government-run health care and Medicare and Medicaid. I can't say I've memorized her exact position on every aspect of Medicaid, but I also can't say that I remember her suggesting that the poor should receive absolutely no health case assistance.

[twa]

Bac do you believe Medicaid/Medicare should provide payment to provide mental health and chemical dependency treatment ?

yes or no?

[Baculus]

Bac do you believe Medicaid/Medicare should provide payment to provide mental health and chemical dependency treatment ?

yes or no?

My position is irrelevant to the discussion. But I will say this: I support Medicare and Medicaid; Bachmann does not. She wants a privatized system, and that is there lies the root of this debate.

[Dan T.]

Hold on, Bac. Are you saying that because Bachmann thinks that Medicaid isn't as "strict," so to speak, as she'd like, her husband should simply turn away anyone who's on Medicaid?

The issue supporting Baculus' hypocrisy argument isn't Medicaid so much as applying for and receiving Federal grant money:

"Marcus Bachmann's Bachmann & Associates clinic -- a Christian counseling service with offices in Lake Elmo and Burnsville -- collected six-figure annual sums, and state records show Marcus Bachmann, a clinical psychologist, also applied for and received $24,000 in federal and state grants to provide mental health and chemical dependency treatment..."

[Baculus]

I've heard her talk about Obamacare and government-run health care and Medicare and Medicaid. I can't say I've memorized her exact position on every aspect of Medicaid, but I also can't say that I remember her suggesting that the poor should receive absolutely no health case assistance.

She believes that people should pray to God for help for assistance, and that people shouldn't rely upon government "handouts" which enlarge the welfare state -- a pretty standard modern Republican talking points.

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2011/07/07/259493/bachmann-faith-in-god-wont-need-welfare/

Praying to God for help is fine, but if you're poor, sick, and need help, then Medicare will often trump faith. People have difficilty receiving health care assistance if their resources are limited, and Medicaid benefits has been targeted by the GOP. As it is, Bachmann and others have attacked "ObamaCare," which she wants to repeal, because it enlarges Medicaid rolls.

http://minnesotaindependent.com/76670/bachmann-chides-dayton-over-medicaid-expansion

As far as the poor are concerned, they're not even in the equation for her. She offers no solutions and she doesn't seem to understand the plights of those lower Americans, numbering in the millions, who experience difficulties in receiving health care treatment.

---------- Post added July-14th-2011 at 11:00 PM ----------

The issue supporting Baculus' hypocrisy argument isn't Medicaid so much as applying for and receiving Federal grant money:

"Marcus Bachmann's Bachmann & Associates clinic -- a Christian counseling service with offices in Lake Elmo and Burnsville -- collected six-figure annual sums, and state records show Marcus Bachmann, a clinical psychologist, also applied for and received $24,000 in federal and state grants to provide mental health and chemical dependency treatment..."

On the nose. Thank you for actually reading my argument (which I know I have thrown out a lot of words, only because I tried my best to further define it).

[elkabong82]

That's BS that you pull in 6 figures and still apply for and collect federal aid, while condemning such out of the other side of the mouth.

And the argument that "well it's there, I don't like it being there but if it is I will use it," is also BS, IMO. It's meant to be there for those who actually need it. Perhaps if so many didn't abuse it out of greed and actually valued helping out the lower downs in order to improve the group collectively instead of viewing such purely as theft, then federal aid might not be abused so much and might actually go strictly to those in need. But I guess when you rail against any shape or form of federal aid, then applying for it when you don't need it is the best way to corrupt the system, no matter how many who actually need it are screwed over. /rant

[Baculus]

That's BS that you pull in 6 figures and still apply for and collect federal aid, while condemning such out of the other side of the mouth.

And the argument that "well it's there, I don't like it being there but if it is I will use it," is also BS, IMO. It's meant to be there for those who actually need it. Perhaps if so many didn't abuse it out of greed and actually valued helping out the lower downs in order to improve the group collectively instead of viewing such purely as theft, then federal aid might not be abused so much and might actually go strictly to those in need. But I guess when you rail against any shape or form of federal aid, then applying for it when you don't need it is the best way to corrupt the system, no matter how many who actually need it are screwed over. /rant

Precisely.

[Burgold]

Who'd a thought a thread on porn would go for almost 20 pages on Extremeskins with no one saying

"useless without pics"

[Jumbo]

Bac do you believe Medicaid/Medicare should provide payment to provide mental health and chemical dependency treatment ?

yes or no?

I certainly do, twa. And it's my highly informed position that it's a cheaper way out than what often happens when that population is left without such coverage and a significant percentage ends up utilizing other resources that are far more expensive or even dangerous as a consequence, without even getting to any social ideals of what's fair, right, principled, or just in a free yet caring society.

Although I actively lead for serious policy modification on the CD front, in terms of improved efficiency and more limited, cost-effective,an less wasteful policies than what I see existent in many places.

[twa]

yeah,but you are biased

[Jumbo]

yeah,but you are biased

Yes. Towards use of a high level of intelligence and to drawing from a deep vein of accurate information that takes the big picture into full account.

:nana:

[Burgold]

Yes. Towards use of a high level of intelligence and to drawing from a deep vein of accurate information that takes the big picture into full account.

:nana:

And your hunting ground is ES? Man, that's like trying to sift for diamonds in the dessert.

[techboy]

The issue supporting Baculus' hypocrisy argument isn't Medicaid so much as applying for and receiving Federal grant money:

That's BS that you pull in 6 figures and still apply for and collect federal aid, while condemning such out of the other side of the mouth.

Wait a minute, now. Reading that article, it sure appears to me that when the clinic "collected federal aid", what that means is that patients sought care from the clinic and it accepted their insurance, which is in this case, medicaid.

Would you prefer that the clinic turn those people away?

Hubbs' question is very valid (and unaddressed). If the Bachmanns ran a grocery store, would you expect them to refuse to serve patrons with food stamps?

They're not taking away resources from people that need it. They're providing those resources, and probably at a significant discount vs. their private clients, if the normal payout rates of medicaid are any guide here.

It also seems to be overlooked that the article also states:

It's not just a responsibility in the ethical sense, but it's also the law. If they accept any form of state insurance, the clinic would need to accept Medicaid clients as well.

This one's a total non-starter too.

I'd stick to the lying... that's a much more serious charge anyway, in my view at least.

*EDIT* Okay, now I see the part where they received some money to train their staff to treat drug addictions and the like. Again, though, if the money's there anyway, it's not hypocrisy to use it as intended, any more than it's hypocrisy for Nancy Pelosi to keep the Bush tax cuts instead of taking two minutes to go to treasury.gov and click donate.

As to the idea that this money is being misused, it would have to be established that the clinic did not use the training to help people, as intended. I haven't seen any evidence of that. It's not like the report says they took the money for a "training conference" in Hawaii or something.

[Jumbo]

And your hunting ground is ES? Man, that's like trying to sift for diamonds in the dessert.

Why do you think I went from posting promiscuously the first couple years, to parsimonious posting, to hardly posting a peep (but still reading and modding) the last 8 months? :evilg:

I'm a frakking elitist! :pfft:

[Burgold]

Why do you think I went from posting promiscuously the first couple years, to parsimonious posting, to hardly posting a peep (but still reading and modding) the last 8 months? :evilg:

I'm a frakking elitist! :pfft:

Thanking you for wading in the muck every now and then with us rabble. Then again, I think by definition I'm supposed to be elitist too. I wonder if your elite enough to be part of my elitist circle or vice versa. Being better than everyone else and yet having to co-exist with them is hard work.

[twa]

Why do you think I went from posting promiscuously the first couple years, to parsimonious posting, to hardly posting a peep (but still reading and modding) the last 8 months? :evilg:

:

Carpal tunnel?

[techboy]

Baculus, I decided to help you out, since you've been struggling to come up with a good example. From the Chicago Tribune:

When she voted against the 2008 farm bill, a $307-billion package that would govern federal agriculture policy for five years, Bachmann declared that it was "loaded with unbelievably outrageous pork and subsidies for agricultural business and ethanol growers." She was one of two nays cast byMinnesota's eight-member delegation.

Just a year later, however, Bachmann wrote to Agriculture Secretary Tom Vilsack, praising the federal government for helping prop up the prices of pig products and dairy by directly buying the commodities, a move that benefited her constituents.

"I would encourage you to take any additional steps necessary to prevent further deterioration of these critical industries, such as making additional commodity purchases," she wrote on Oct. 5, 2009. The Los Angeles Times/Tribune Washington Bureau obtained the letter through a Freedom of Information Act request.

That is full on hypocrisy, not just taking advantage of a program she opposed but which would happen anyway after it went through, but actively encouraging more of the thing she denounced.

You're welcome.

[Larry]

Why do you think I went from posting promiscuously the first couple years, to parsimonious posting, to hardly posting a peep (but still reading and modding) the last 8 months? :evilg:

You know, I've been singing this song, here, for 25 minutes.

I can go on singing for another 25 minutes.

I'm not proud.

Or tired.

[Jumbo]

Carpal tunnel?

Docs say it'a a grandiose case.

[Baculus]

Baculus, I decided to help you out, since you've been struggling to come up with a good example. From the Chicago Tribune:

That is full on hypocrisy, not just taking advantage of a program she opposed but which would happen anyway after it went through, but actively encouraging more of the thing she denounced.

You're welcome.

Aha! See! I'm not crazy (which I tell myself every day)! ;-)

Thanks for reading further on this, which clarifies one point in the debate (where I wasn't completely correct. e.g., her vote). But maybe we can meet halfway on this topic without an epic blowout.

[techboy]

Aha! See! I'm not crazy (which I tell myself every day)!

Nope, not crazy, just wrong.

I never denied she was a hypocrite (I even stated she probably was), just that your examples weren't good ones.

If you want to leave it there, don't ask me whether or not I think a lack of hypocrisy is important when assessing a politician.

Thanks for reading further on this, which clarifies one point in the debate (where I wasn't completely correct. e.g., her vote).

Speaking of reading, you should already know you were incorrect about her vote. I told you that in post 221 of this very thread, using a quote from an article you posted.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Again....Medicaid money versus God giving her a vision of her husband.

Which should be disqualifying?

[Dan T.]

Again....Medicaid money versus God giving her a vision of her husband.

Which should be disqualifying?

I've seen - and heard - her husband. So I vote for the God vision thingy.