You're the Coach: How do you Win?

[KDawg]

I think this thread has gotten a bit sidetracked with morality talk, which in my mind is a component of talent evaluation, which is turn is only one piece of a team's plan to reach its goals.

I started the thread... How can I sidetrack it?

I'd rather go big picture to small picture (goals to specific traits of one portion of one element of achieving said goals) than the other way around.

I think you have it backwards. The little things add up to the big things. Not the other way around.

[The Tris]

I think you have it backwards. The little things add up to the big things. Not the other way around.

You set goals first. So, as coach, let's figure out what goals we should set.

Then, let's figure out the best plan to achieve those goals.

Part of that plan will obviously be player acquisition, and an element of that will obviously be character analysis.

[Mahons21]

It seems to be that everyone, including OF, are looking for guys who are more mature than others. Maybe I read that wrong, I don't want to misrepresent your views... But, surely that means that a coach somewhere along the lines taught them sound morals and ethics, correct?

If someone has sound ethics and morals, why would you assume it was taught to them by a football coach? Why not say their parents, grand-parents, siblings, teachers, friends etc taught them morality. It's a learned behavior and for the most of us no single entity taught us our own moral code. Could a coach have contributed? Yes, but it's also just as possible that a football player had some POS coach who knew the ins and outs of football, so they learned how to play the game from their coach, and how to act like a stand-up human being from their family.

Should there be a stronger focus on morals and ethics at the youth and interscholastic levels of athletics so that when these guys become pros they have a stronger code to live by?

No their should be a strong focus on learning the game, football coaches teach football. Can they give solid messages about life along the way? Yes, but they shouldn't have to teach a youth about morality, that task is on a very different set of people.

I think morality might be getting confused with being disciplined, cooperative, and work ethic (different than just regular ethics).

Let's look at the example of Tom Brady:

-One of the greatest QB's of all time

-Great leader/team captain

-Works extremely hard

Now let's judge his morality:

-Left his pregnant GF for a supermodel

-Most likely played some part in spy-gate (you'd have to be an idiot to think the QB didn't know)

Not the most moral guy, but he obviously works quite well with his teammates/coaches.

[KDawg]

If someone has sound ethics and morals, why would you assume it was taught to them by a football coach?

You wouldn't. But if they play, the coach should be helping to entrench those values.

Yes, but it's also just as possible that a football player had some POS coach who knew the ins and outs of football, so they learned how to play the game from their coach, and how to act like a stand-up human being from their family.

A POS coach shouldn't be a coach. Just because you know the game doesn't mean you're a coach.

No their should be a strong focus on learning the game, football coaches teach football.

Strongly disagree. Obviously, that's a part of their job. But nowadays, there are alot of kids that have no father figures in their lives. I know from experience. I make a difference in my athletes on the field and in the classroom and off the field. I've had people thank me for helping them get through. It's one of those things that I almost thing you have to go through to truly understand and appreciate. But a coach's job is never to just coach their sport. That's a bad coach. A good coach delivers life lessons in ways that others may not be able to. Or reinforces those lessons.

Can they give solid messages about life along the way? Yes, but they shouldn't have to teach a youth about morality, that task is on a very different set of people.

But they do. This isn't utopia. More kids in my current program come in with more issues than kids with sound values. It's the lay of the land.

I think morality might be getting confused with being disciplined, cooperative, and work ethic (different than just regular ethics).

There's several different types of morality. In a sports world, bracketed morality is often use. Bracketed morality is a form of morality where something in the real world might not be legal, but on the sports field, it is. Morality has a large place in the sports world, bracketed or not. And the more the values are enforced/engrained, the better the outcome for the child. If the athlete is getting moral lessons at home and at school and on the field, they are more likely to have it engrained. I don't see why you're against coaches being more than just about a sport. Football is a life game. There are so many great lessons that come out of this game. It helped to mold me for who I am, and I'm returning the favor. I see how I affect kids every day. And it's the best damn feeling in the world.

[MassSkinsFan]

...But, surely that means that a coach somewhere along the lines taught them sound morals and ethics, correct?

Could've been their parents too. My Dad was a much bigger positive influence on me than any coach I ever had. In fact part of my value to any team (athletic, musical or business) of which I've been a part is directly attributable to lessons he taught me.

[KDawg]

Could've been their parents too. My Dad was a much bigger positive influence on me than any coach I ever had. In fact part of my value to any team (athletic, musical or business) of which I've been a part is directly attributable to lessons he taught me.

Absolutely. Mahons said the same, and I agree. Didn't mean to neglect that aspect. But nowadays, a lot of kids don't have that support, and those that due often value from having more than one adult help guide them.

[Oldfan]

...I think you have it backwards. The little things add up to the big things. Not the other way around.

I have to agree with The Tris on this point. As he suggests, you have to first clearly define your goal. So, as we learned, the question, "How do you win?" will have different answers for a high school coach than for an NFL coach since winning shouldn't be the primary goal for a high school coach.

For the NFL coach or GM, the owner should give a clearly defined goal as the starting point for a plan.

As I said earlier cooperation is the essential behavior of teamwork, and cooperation is amoral. So, the NFL coach doesn't care if his player is a poor excuse for a human being as long as his practice habits and his play exemplify high-grade teamwork.

[KDawg]

I have to agree with The Tris on this point. As he suggests, you have to first clearly define your goal. So, as we learned, the question, "How do you win?" will have different answers for a high school coach than for an NFL coach since winning shouldn't be the primary goal for a high school coach.

For the NFL coach or GM, the owner should give a clearly defined goal as the starting point for a plan.

As I said earlier cooperation is the essential behavior of teamwork, and cooperation is amoral. So, the NFL coach doesn't care if his player is a poor excuse for a human being as long as his practice habits and his play exemplify high-grade teamwork.

But, this thread has no specific wheelhouse.

We can be talking about any level.

Which I think is where we're disagreeing. I'd bet if you nailed this topic down to a specific level, we'd all be more on the same page.

[Skinsinparadise]

My observations on fresh college grads has been that they don't know their keister from their elbow and have to be taught both how to work and technical details of their job. I think possibly the difference we're seeing is that you say your experience is with juvenile justice, whereas mine is with recent grads (and also interns during the summer pre-graduation) coming into a large corporate IT organization, who have been through an interview and hire process that is somewhat analagous to the draft, in that the organization intentionally chooses those individuals because they have potential to add to the team.

Also, good habits can be developed at any age. And especially for guys in their early 20's, they're easier to develop than for old guys like me.

When I speak of developing better character, I'm speaking of marginal increases, not a complete turnaround of the knuckleheads.

I wasn't so much talking about habits and work strategy but personality/character. Of course people coming out of college need to learn how to do their job but that has nothing to do with my point. Yeah if your character is that you are a disciplined type, listen to authority well and have the will to succeed, of course a good coach can channel and get that player to improve their habits/work strategy. Work strategy/habits are mostly skills. I work hard I need to know how to work smart so the coach teaches me to watch tape religiously, and the value of staying in shape, and put me in touch with a trainers who helps develop a workout regime for me. On the other hand, if you've been lazy throughout most of your life, you are more into money then personal excellence, are distracted easily by a bad crowd, etc or whatever etc -- I think teaching that person better habits will unlikely override those personal characteristics that much or more likely it works temporarily but then than player recedes to their personality.

As for the juvenile justice part I think you misunderstand. In my post prior to that I said I am not speaking as an authority but coming from the perspective of an employer and what I have studied in developmental psychology. I brought out juvenile justice because there are studies about the formation about personality as to what age its easy to turn someone around and where they are still malleable and what age its less likely to happen. People's PERSONALITIES IMO and some studies back this are not that malleable post college or for that matter late high school. The examples I used like TO weren't so much about habits but about character.

As to you saying your point is about making marginal increases to people without deep problems, OK I will go along with that marginal differences can be made in just about everything but to the larger point. Lets say Trent Williams for example is indeed lazy. A Coach taking Trent Williams and marking marginal improvements to that characteristic and ditto to other players with issues IMO isn't what makes a team winning. IMO its finding guys with those winning characteristics from day one who don't need to be tweaked a heck of a lot and instead you channel their positive traits into great habits and they are used with the right strategy.

[Oldfan]

But, this thread has no specific wheelhouse.

We can be talking about any level.

Which I think is where we're disagreeing. I'd bet if you nailed this topic down to a specific level, we'd all be more on the same page.

Let me just try explaining my point again using Mike Shanahan as an example. I have Mike pegged as a specialist. He's great on the X's and O's of an offense, but from his history and some of the things I've seen here, I don't think he has a good view of the Big Picture. What I'm telling you is that, if you want to win in the NFL, you have to be a Big Picture guy and let other people, the specialists, think about the tons of little things that need done.

Now, the Tris was talking specifically about planning. When a Big Picture Guy plans, he begins with a clearly defined goal. "I want to build a team that will average 11 regular season wins or better indefinitely and have a great record in the playoffs including a few Lombardi trophies."

[Pwyl]

I wasn't so much talking about habits and work strategy but personality/character. Of course people coming out of college need to learn how to do their job but that has nothing to do with my point. Yeah if your character is that you are a disciplined type, listen to authority well and have the will to succeed, of course a good coach can channel and get that player to improve their habits/work strategy. Work strategy/habits are mostly skills. I work hard I need to know how to work smart so the coach teaches me to watch tape religiously, and the value of staying in shape, and put me in touch with a trainers who helps develop a workout regime for me. On the other hand, if you've been lazy throughout most of your life, you are more into money then personal excellence, are distracted easily by a bad crowd, etc or whatever etc -- I think teaching that person better habits will unlikely override those personal characteristics that much or more likely it works temporarily but then than player recedes to their personality.

As for the juvenile justice part I think you misunderstand. In my post prior to that I said I am not speaking as an authority but coming from the perspective of an employer and what I have studied in developmental psychology. I brought out juvenile justice because there are studies about the formation about personality as to what age its easy to turn someone around and where they are still malleable and what age its less likely to happen. People's PERSONALITIES IMO and some studies back this are not that malleable post college or for that matter late high school. The examples I used like TO weren't so much about habits but about character.

As to you saying your point is about making marginal increases to people without deep problems, OK I will go along with that marginal differences can be made in just about everything but to the larger point. Lets say Trent Williams for example is indeed lazy. A Coach taking Trent Williams and marking marginal improvements to that characteristic and ditto to other players with issues IMO isn't what makes a team winning. IMO its finding guys with those winning characteristics from day one who don't need to be tweaked a heck of a lot and instead you channel their positive traits into great habits and they are used with the right strategy.

Looks like we're coming at this from different angles. So agree to kind-of disagree You're talking more about personality and I'm talking more about character. They're kind of intertwined but I think the parts I'm referring to are still pretty malleable in your early 20's. (and reiterating that I'm not talking about fixing bad apples, just making guys marginally better at being adults and professionals through building good character)

I also wasn't putting "an environment that fosters character development" forward as the only or even the most important piece required to answer the question of "how do you win", it's just something that popped into my head and I put it out there as one component that the coach can work on.

And honestly, when I was originally thinking this concept through, I was thinking about Joe Gibbs, and how he seemed to have a knack for getting his guys to overachieve, and speculate that it was in part due to inspiring them to be better men.

[Oldfan]

...And honestly, when I was originally thinking this concept through, I was thinking about Joe Gibbs, and how he seemed to have a knack for getting his guys to overachieve, and speculate that it was in part due to inspiring them to be better men.

I can't say you're wrong. I can only say that I didn't notice a bunch overachieving. The combination of Beathard's huge 1981 draft and Gibbs's marrying of Nebraska's running game to the Coryell passing game gave the team a competitive edge. I find this explanation sufficient to explain what I witnessed without delving into psychology.

[Pwyl]

I can't say you're wrong. I can only say that I didn't notice a bunch overachieving. The combination of Beathard's huge 1981 draft and Gibbs's marrying of Nebraska's running game to the Coryell passing game gave the team a competitive edge. I find this explanation sufficient to explain what I witnessed without delving into psychology.

Yep, those things are probably a bigger component of Gibbs' success. And I was just going by various quotes that I've seen from his players over the years describing the relationship with Gibbs.

[ChiefPowhatan17]

Play Albert at Quarterback!!!!

[Long-Time-Fan]

Direction first needs to be established.

I would find a GM and then a Coach and their contracts would be for LIFE!.

The authority would be in this order

Me(the owner)

GM

Coach

GM and Coach run the team,I pay the bills.

You want to talk about the team?.....talk to them.

If the players want to call their jobs a business then I WILL run it as a business.

Your pay will not only be based on what you do but also what the TEAM does.

We will look at your stats at the end of the year and determine your pay.

You go 1-15 you better find a PT job.

YOU WILL NOT come to MY TEAM! and do as you wish nor will you receive any special treatment based on who you are.

practice squad member or 1st round draft pick... the old motto of what have you done for me lately applies to both.

[Skinsinparadise]

Looks like we're coming at this from different angles. So agree to kind-of disagree You're talking more about personality and I'm talking more about character. They're kind of intertwined but I think the parts I'm referring to are still pretty malleable in your early 20's. (and reiterating that I'm not talking about fixing bad apples, just making guys marginally better at being adults and professionals through building good character)

I don't think we are that far apart. IMO character and personality are intertwined. I think you can turn a hard working ambitious type with talent into something special -- IMO being hard working or lazy is partly a personality trait. I think its difficult to take somebody who is lazy and unambitious and make them ambitious. And I understand your point is tweaking it and for that matter its not the be all and end all for team building. But just making this point to bring home my larger thought here (so this isn't really directed to you) which is I think the prime thing in operation is the type of player you are working with from day one as opposed to the tweaking.

And honestly, when I was originally thinking this concept through, I was thinking about Joe Gibbs, and how he seemed to have a knack for getting his guys to overachieve, and speculate that it was in part due to inspiring them to be better men.

Not saying you are saying otherwise but just to further my point, to build good character IMO its less about Joe Gibbs and more about the person. Brandon Lloyd was a personality problem with SF. Gibbs didn't turn him around. though he would fit your category i presume of a player who needs more than just some tweaking. Portis didn't practice hard from what we read under Gibbs, etc.

When I read about the Skins overachieving in the 80s, seems that the overriding point was they had talent, strategy and good character guys from the stand point that they were hungry and ambitious and got along with their teammates. Players who were cranky and weren't team oriented like Jay Schroeder were traded as opposed to the force of Gibbs' personality turning them around. Guys like Dexter Manley got in trouble and imploded, Gibbs didn't stop that from happening. I could be missing some examples that contradict this so feel free to throw anything you have at me, since its been a long time since I've thought of those teams. and again I think i follow your distinction of tweaking someone versus overhauling a bad seed. but yeah i wonder how much tweaking these guys needed. You listen to Jacoby, Clark, Grimm, etc in interviews and those guys really seemed to want it bad back then. They don't seem to cite Gibbs as a motivator as their overriding reason for success but his strategy/preparation. And again I know you aren't arguing otherwise I am just expounding on my point.

[The Tris]

"I want to build a team that will average 11 wins or better indefinitely and have a great record in the playoffs including a few Lombardi trophies."

The prefect goal. One which I don't see being planned for, nor one we have seen attempted since Snyder bought the team.

I would find a GM and then a Coach

The authority would be in this order

GM

Coach

I think it is very hard for an NFL coach to have the necessary big picture perspective to have both roles as coach and GM (personnel decisions).

Most of the time you need a strong, long term focused GM who consults with the HC, but at the end of the day has final say.

This is again something we have never had under Snyder.

[LoudMouth12thMan]

Also, I would pour ex-lax in the opposing team's gatorade.

What a crappy thing to say :paranoid:

[Darth Tater]

In the NFL, the biggest single thing is figuring out how to force the timing issue.

[Oldfan]

Direction first needs to be established.

I assume you mean that a clearly defined goal should be set, as The Tris and I have said.

I would find a GM and then a Coach and their contracts would be for LIFE!.

If you don't own a crystal ball, I would suggest a three-year contract first to make sure the guys you picked were both willing and able to meet your goal.

The authority would be in this order

Me(the owner)

GM

Coach

Okay.

GM and Coach run the team,I pay the bills.

You want to talk about the team?.....talk to them.

I'd suggest you have your coach and GM run major deals or strategy shifts by you. You should be reluctant to veto their plans, but you need to make sure that your coach or GM is not deviating from your direction. Moreover, you need to evaluate the quality of their decision making.

If the players want to call their jobs a business then I WILL run it as a business.

Your pay will not only be based on what you do but also what the TEAM does.

We will look at your stats at the end of the year and determine your pay.

You go 1-15 you better find a PT job.

There are a ton of problems with this. Nevertheless, I agree that more contracts should be incentive based.

YOU WILL NOT come to MY TEAM! and do as you wish nor will you receive any special treatment based on who you are.

Agreed.

---------- Post added June-16th-2011 at 06:33 AM ----------

In the NFL, the biggest single thing is figuring out how to force the timing issue.

On the field...yes. The rules of the game give the defense an edge which they need to use to their advantage -- while the offense needs to try to negate the disadvantage.

[Buck812]

Get the 53 players on the roster who despise losing the most. Ive just never seen anything good come from being a good loser.

[Oldfan]

Get the 53 players on the roster who despise losing the most. Ive just never seen anything good come from being a good loser.

Until the age of 43, I would have agreed with you. Until that time, I played sports with a dogged determination to win.

At 43, playing league volleyball, I decided just to go out, give it everything I had, have fun, and just say to hell with winning or losing.... My game improved considerably. I took the same attitude out on the tennis court with the same result.

My theory is that when you try harder to win, it creates a tension which tightens muscles. Trying harder is a mistake for athletes.

[HTTR F Dallas]

I'm the coach? oh ****... sorry fans.

[gbear]

I like the posts on attention to detail. I would add another part in there. I think at least 1/10 of practice time should be spent out of position. In order to just go where you need to be on offense or defense without the split second to think through what's going on, one should "know" how players around you will react. I don't see as much of it in the NFL as other sports. Sometimes we see TE split out, but that's about the extent of it. In basketball, you'll see a point guard isolated in the post against the other team's pg or in soccer, the fullback will make overlapping runs. In the NFL, we see it less.

I mean line up a CB as a LB or a Center as Guard or a DT as a safety. When everyone knows the other positions, it's easier to react to unforseen circumstances. Keep in mind, other teams are trying to create these mismatches. Don't assume it will never work. Conversely, practice those mismatches when they can benefit you. The practice of other positions should also increase continuity as players know their part and the role it plays.

[MassSkinsFan]

Now, the Tris was talking specifically about planning. When a Big Picture Guy plans, he begins with a clearly defined goal. "I want to build a team that will average 11 regular season wins or better indefinitely and have a great record in the playoffs including a few Lombardi trophies."

This is true and vitally important.

Too many times I've seen otherwise competent people **** things up because they executed before planning (aka Ready Fire Aim). This is project management 101 and it applies in just about any organized undertaking. Your plan dictates your needs.