tr1 might have been right all along about DeMarcus Ware...

[tr1]

tr1, the best part is that we are all acknowledging that Ware is an above average player and very good pass rusher, yet the Puke fans completely ignore those posts and act as if we don't know what we're talking about.

That, and they criticize Rak as being an average linebacker because he's weak in coverage. Yet they just choose to put the blinders on when it comes to Ware and say that we shouldn't judge him on his ability to cover because he's a "pass rusher."

Puke fans can't see when we actually are paying one of their players a compliment...that he's an above average player who has hoodwinked fandom by playing in a scheme that makes him look better than he actually is...

They should be proud.

[Mr. Jones]

Puke fans can't see when we actually are paying one of their players a compliment...that he's an above average player who has hoodwinked fandom by playing in a scheme that makes him look better than he actually is...

They should be proud.

The problem is Ware is far better then just above average. Saying he's a product of scheme is sort of like calling Peyton Manning a product of the Colts' system. According to everyone who's not a troll like you are he's an elite top 5 defensive player in the NFL.

As far as the comparisons to Rak they're similar players with Rak having the POTENTIAL to be as good. Ware is more agile and faster, but Rak is stronger.

[tr1]

The problem is Ware is far better then just above average. Saying he's a product of scheme is sort of like calling Peyton Manning a product of the Colts' system. According to everyone who's not a troll like you are he's an elite top 5 defensive player in the NFL.

As far as the comparisons to Rak they're similar players with Rak having the POTENTIAL to be as good. Ware is more agile and faster, but Rak is stronger.

Here we go...he's an 'elite' player! And, 'according to everyone'!

So much TALENT!

Yet, so unable to dominate a game...

Somebody open the window...there's a lot of smoke in here...

[SkinsTillIDie]

Haven't read this whole thread, but figured Chris Cooley's opinion is probably more valid than all of ours:

Demarcus Ware may not just be the best linebacker in football, but possibly the best all around defender. In my scouting report this week Ware was graded as "no holes" in the weakness category.

Albeit, from 2008.

http://chriscooley47.blogspot.com/2008/09/thursday-dallas.html

[Tweedr01]

wow, i'm glad i came back into this thread, tr1 pointed out what i was telling you guys all along...pukes are good at burying their heads in the sand, the normal poke mantra.

[tr1]

Haven't read this whole thread, but figured Chris Cooley's opinion is probably more valid than all of ours:

And Joe Gibbs, prior to playing an opponent, would say we're playing 22 HOF'ers every week.

Players are told to say non-controversial stuff about opponents...besides, Cooley knows the truth...if you build up a guy you beat routinely like a drum, that makes you look better.

[Hitman21ST]

Haven't read this whole thread, but figured Chris Cooley's opinion is probably more valid than all of ours:

Cooley also said he is

...

[da#1skinsfan]

Man this thread is frustrating, not to rain in anyone's parade but from an unbiased person who read through most of thus bad thread.....

Tr1 and team have made some ridiculous statements like Ware would disappear in a 4-3. When the opposition points them out, Tr1 shifts the argument to defend Ware, saying he is good, but no LT. Opposition says no one is saying he is LT, and tries to shift the argument back to how good he is. Tr1 disagrees, points ti the scheme with some relevant, and irreleveant details, rinse and repeat the cycle.

What's so difficult here. Ware is one of the best pass fishers in the league, fact. Dallas has a scheme that plays to his strengths and puts him in a position to succeed. Fact, and not a negative. Orakpo is not as good as Ware is today, fact. Neither Orakpo, nor Ware, excel in coverage, so while their athletic ability allows them to play in coverage, both teams would prefer to have them rush the qb. Ask any Dallas coach or any Washington coach what these 2 guys strengths are and they will tell you the same thing. Fact. And not a negative.

Neither of these guys are LT, and it's unfair to compare either of them, yet. And that's a stretch to say yet, even.

Bottom line Ware is a monster, he is every bit as good as he gets credit for even though Dallas as a team is consistently overrated each year.

All of the rest is emotional banter and attempts at skirting the real topic at hand. Any NFL fan without blinders on can see this.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Neither of these guys are LT, and it's unfair to compare either of them, yet. And that's a stretch to say yet, even.

Bottom line Ware is a monster...

LT was a "monster"...and as you said Ware is not LT. Lewis = "monster". Ware is not Lewis.

To me, the Ware overhype is along the lines of saying Romo sits to pee was "easily a top 5 QB" or that Romo sits to pee was "easily" an elite QB. Wasn't that long ago (less than a year, actually) that claiming anything otherwise would have been met with derision and ridicule from most Cowboys fans...and some boneheaded Skins fans as well.

Curios question here for anyone who wants to answer: is Ware a better LB than Romo sits to pee is a QB?

[Drew_Fl]

Curios question here for anyone who wants to answer: is Ware a better LB than Romo sits to pee is a QB?

i think Ware can be more of an impact player than Romo sits to pee b/c of the sacks, but Romo sits to pee is probably a better all around QB in terms of attributes (ie pocket accurracy, throwing on the run, escaping pressure...). I don't have that much confidence in Ware in coverage b/c I just don't see it much, but that doesn't mean he can't cover.

however since coverage is part of a LB's skillset, my opinion is what it is. i would rather have Ware on my team than Romo sits to pee if that means anything though. Ware has 80 sacks and 25 FF's in 6 years. he's been very consistent and whether he's a "product of the scheme" or not i don't care. he produces. Romo sits to pee can't show the same consistency.

[Tweedr01]

LT was a "monster"...and as you said Ware is not LT. Lewis = "monster". Ware is not Lewis.

To me, the Ware overhype is along the lines of saying Romo sits to pee was "easily a top 5 QB" or that Romo sits to pee was "easily" an elite QB. Wasn't that long ago (less than a year, actually) that claiming anything otherwise would have been met with derision and ridicule from most Cowboys fans...and some boneheaded Skins fans as well.

Curios question here for anyone who wants to answer: is Ware a better LB than Romo sits to pee is a QB?

they are equally the best and are for you to claim anything otherwise would be ridiculous :puke:

[Hitman21ST]

they are equally the best and are for you to claim anything otherwise would be ridiculous :puke:

It's impossible to compare "god" to "god," right?

[skinsnshanny]

Where has benefited from Wade's scheme.

Where's not HOF material. As has been pointed out numerous times in this thread, he lacks when it comes to pass coverage. Oh, and were it not for the incredible hype machine the pukes' enjoy, he wouldn't even be mentioned on most Sundays.

Yup didnt even respond to any of the actual substance. He graded out as a top 4 OLB against the RUN this year. Yup.

Guys like Hali and Suggs rush the passer almost exactly as often. No other player has as many sacks as ware since entering the league. Yup.

This includes Dlinemen who rush the passer more often. This includes players who grade much lower against the run.

Eff the cowboys but Ware is a great player, hands down. Call him an LB call him a DE, call him whatever, he shuts down that side of the LOS thats what he is asked to do and thats what he does.

---------- Post added May-13th-2011 at 08:46 PM ----------

LT was a "monster"...and as you said Ware is not LT. Lewis = "monster". Ware is not Lewis.

To me, the Ware overhype is along the lines of saying Romo sits to pee was "easily a top 5 QB" or that Romo sits to pee was "easily" an elite QB. Wasn't that long ago (less than a year, actually) that claiming anything otherwise would have been met with derision and ridicule from most Cowboys fans...and some boneheaded Skins fans as well.

Curios question here for anyone who wants to answer: is Ware a better LB than Romo sits to pee is a QB?

Ware is a much better player than Romo sits to pee. There is no question. Your statement is either a joke or you really dont watch Ware play.

Despite offenses knowing when and how Ware is coming, he still gets the job done. Im pretty sure he has the most sacks in the NFL (not just LBs) since he entered the league.

He graded out as the 4th best LB against the run this year. He also had one of the highest qb disruption and pressure rates.

great on run plays, great on pass plays...what else can you ask for?

Is it really not possible to talk football here without politics and blinders?

[TonyRomoProBowl]

Yup didnt even respond to any of the actual substance. He graded out as a top 4 OLB against the RUN this year. Yup.

Guys like Hali and Suggs rush the passer almost exactly as often. No other player has as many sacks as ware since entering the league. Yup.

This includes Dlinemen who rush the passer more often. This includes players who grade much lower against the run.

Eff the cowboys but Ware is a great player, hands down. Call him an LB call him a DE, call him whatever, he shuts down that side of the LOS thats what he is asked to do and thats what he does.uq

---------- Post added May-13th-2011 at 08:46 PM ----------

Ware is a much better player than Romo sits to pee. There is no question. Your statement is either a joke or you really dont watch Ware play.

Despite offenses knowing when and how Ware is coming, he still gets the job done. Im pretty sure he has the most sacks in the NFL (not just LBs) since he entered the league.

He graded out as the 4th best LB against the run this year. He also had one of the highest qb disruption and pressure rates.

great on run plays, great on pass plays...what else can you ask for?

Is it really not possible to talk football here without politics and blinders?

Pretty much not possible at all to discuss football here on a regular basis......this thread is a perfect example of why.

[tr1]

Ware is coming, he still gets the job done.

He's terrific in non-big games.

In big games, he basically disappears.

Real HOF stuff there...:rotflmao:

Puke fans, Clay Matthews is what you THINK Where is.

Get real.

:ols:

---------- Post added May-13th-2011 at 09:28 PM ----------

Pretty much not possible at all to discuss football here on a regular basis......this thread is a perfect example of why.

Feel free to visit a puke board.

You know the intellectual discussion is FAR superior to what it is here...:ols:

Seriously, go to pukeville and try not to get soiled by all of the self-gratification goo....

---------- Post added May-13th-2011 at 09:32 PM ----------

Puke fans...please explain how you have SUCH A MAGNIFICENT DEFENSIVE PLAYER, yet you've only been able to win one playoff game in the last 13? years...

How were you able to tie the one-and-done playoff record when you had 13 pro-bowl players a couple of years ago?

Your team, coach, and GM are pathetic.

PATHETIC.

With all of that money, you should be perennial SB champs!

:ols::ols:

[skinsnshanny]

He's terrific in non-big games.

In big games, he basically disappears.

Real HOF stuff there...:rotflmao:

Puke fans, Clay Matthews is what you THINK Where is.

Get real.

:ols:

Well this is a different argument than the one previously presented. You still failed to respond to being rated number 4 against the run and the number 2 overall pass rusher in the entire league.

I dont know how you define big games, but i figure every division game is big. He had 7 sacks in the division this year. I guess playoffs might count as well.

He had 3 sacks in the playoffs the year before. 7 Sacks in the division the year prior. A sack in the only playoff game the year before, and 5.5 more sacks in the division. 5 in the division the year before. So yea...

Further, Matthews, while great at times last year was really hammered later in the year with injuries and was not nearly as effective. I think it was mostly injuries, but the difference in his play was noticeable.

Side note: Are you saying Mr. Tomlinson is not HOF worthy?

---------- Post added May-13th-2011 at 09:45 PM ----------

, please explain how you have SUCH A MAGNIFICENT DEFENSIVE PLAYER yet you've only been able to win one playoff game in the last 13? years...

How were you able to tie the one-and-done playoff record when you had 13 pro-bowl players a couple of years ago?

Your team, coach, and GM are pathetic.

PATHETIC.

:ols::ols:

Another side note, so you dont make all us skins fans look this ignorant.

1. Ware has only played 7 seasons, not 13

2. They have won a playoff game with Ware

3. Their current coach was not the head coach during those years.

[tr1]

Well this is a different argument than the one previously presented. You still failed to respond to being rated number 4 against the run and the number 2 overall pass rusher in the entire league.

I dont know how you define big games, but i figure every division game is big. He had 7 sacks in the division this year. I guess playoffs might count as well.

He had 3 sacks in the playoffs the year before. 7 Sacks in the division the year prior. A sack in the only playoff game the year before, and 5.5 more sacks in the division. 5 in the division the year before. So yea...

Further, Matthews, while great at times last year was really hammered later in the year with injuries and was not nearly as effective. I think it was mostly injuries, but the difference in his play was noticeable.

Side note: Are you saying Mr. Tomlinson is not HOF worthy?

---------- Post added May-13th-2011 at 09:45 PM ----------

Another side note, so you dont make all us skins fans look this ignorant.

1. Ware has only played 7 seasons, not 13

2. They have won a playoff game with Ware

3. Their current coach was not the head coach during those years.

:rotflmao:

Once again, cherry picking Where's stats is typical for your losing argument.

Only the blinded-by-hype would tout a single player's stats in a season where the expectation for their franchise was SB...yes, WINNING the SB.

So, by half-way through the season, the pukes are destined to fail at making the playoffs...and, what happens? Well, Where pads his stats in a high-risk defense, while his supporting secondary FAILS routinely.

Where excels, yet his team fails.

Whoopie!

:ols:

Please, try not to make Skins fans look bad by apologizing for a hapless pukes' team, and a character whose sole role is to rush the qb AT THE EXPENSE OF LEAVING HIS DBS HELPLESS...some of us might think you're actually a puke fan...

BTW, Matthews IS a real LB with way more upside than Where..to say otherwise is plain dumb.

Step it up, man.

---------- Post added May-13th-2011 at 10:17 PM ----------

Please, can anyone tell me TWO games where Mr. Where has dominated the game.

The one game that could be argued that he dominated really was unimportant....but, hey, I'm looking for the second game where HE TOOK OVER.

Anyone?

[Hitman21ST]

W

Another side note, so you dont make all us skins fans look this ignorant.

1. Ware has only played 7 seasons, not 13

2. They have won a playoff game with Ware

3. Their current coach was not the head coach during those years.

1. Um, he never said Ware played 13 seasons. He said the Cowboys have been able to only win one playoff game in the past 13.

2. And that's why they didn't set the one-and-done playoff record. Until they won their one playoff game (which started the hype machine back rolling again ), they were consistently one-and-done - enough to tie the record.

3. He's calling Garrett pathetic. Not saying anything about Wade (although, by proxy, their SUPER TALENTED offense was run by Garrett, and they still fizzled out routinely in December, he is also calling Wade pathetic. If the shoe fits...)

[Roger.Staubach]

[/color]Puke fans...please explain how you have SUCH A MAGNIFICENT DEFENSIVE PLAYER, yet you've only been able to win one playoff game in the last 13? years...

I've met people that are dumber than you. I promise. Sadly, I don't remember when.

This isn't golf, dude. If you are too stupid to realize that this is a team sport I suggest you purchase a television package that allows you to get the NFL Network.

[da#1skinsfan]

This is awful. How are we bringing playoff victories into a discussion about ware being one of the best defensive players in the game??

Wake up folks, Ware is excellent. He is one of the best defensive players in the game.

Tony Romo sits to pee, playoff wins, wade Phillips, and any other ridiculous parallel point brought up has no bearing on the above. Ware is awesome, plain and simple.

This is ridiculous, can't read any more.

[skinsnshanny]

:rotflmao:

Once again, cherry picking Where's stats is typical for your losing argument.

Only the blinded-by-hype would tout a single player's stats in a season where the expectation for their franchise was SB...yes, WINNING the SB.

So, by half-way through the season, the pukes are destined to fail at making the playoffs...and, what happens? Well, Where pads his stats in a high-risk defense, while his supporting secondary FAILS routinely.

Where excels, yet his team fails.

?

Cherry Picking? You didnt define "big games" so i did for you. PLayoffs and division games. I think those count. And what am i blinded by? I didnt pick his stats in "a season" I gave you like 5 seasons worth of playoffs/division games.

Everything else you bring up is irrelevant to Ware, we are not talking about how or why Tony Romo sits to pee fumbled a snap against seattle. We are talking about a player, a damn good one.

Again he graded number 4 LB against the run and number 2 overall pass rusher (any position this year).

He has graded high consistently. Lets talk about Ware and not Romo sits to pee. He is a OLB in a 3-4 regardless of any game i saw you will claim it is unimportant or he didnt dominate, I know you will say he didnt dominate because you refuse to beleive that a guy who is top 2 or 4 in the league is dominating.

Does a 2 sack performance including a forced fumble in a 20 point playoff win count?

---------- Post added May-14th-2011 at 04:23 AM ----------

1. Um, he never said Ware played 13 seasons. He said the Cowboys have been able to only win one playoff game in the past 13.

2. And that's why they didn't set the one-and-done playoff record. Until they won their one playoff game (which started the hype machine back rolling again ), they were consistently one-and-done - enough to tie the record.

3. He's calling Garrett pathetic. Not saying anything about Wade (although, by proxy, their SUPER TALENTED offense was run by Garrett, and they still fizzled out routinely in December, he is also calling Wade pathetic. If the shoe fits...)

1. He said if they have Ware how come come they have only 1 playoff win in 13 years. What do the other 6 years have to do with Ware? Nothing. Clearly he was confused as to which years Ware played. This thread is about Ware right?

2. Citing the years before Ware played is again irrelevant, citing that they won with Ware, who had 2 sacks, only helps prove that Ware is a good player. But still looking at historic playoff record to grade an OLB is silly.

3. When read in context--the post was about the previous 13 years--so citing a new head coach and calling him pathetic based on the history is not fair. But again this is not relevant to grading Ware.

---------- Post added May-14th-2011 at 04:35 AM ----------

:

BTW, Matthews IS a real LB with way more upside than Where..to say otherwise is plain dumb.

Step it up, man.

?

Your lack of respect and childish tactics are second to none. Where did i say Matthews is not a "real LB" and where did i say he did not have more "upside."

I never said either. Why the need to make these things up?

Fact is that Matthews tailed off in his performance during the second half the regular season. Watch the film. I said it was most likely due to injury. I am sure if you ask Matthews himself his opinion of Ware, he would speak highly of him. Matthews is going to be a very very good player, with the sky the limit. Ware has been a really really good plan. Its not apologizing for Ware, its simply watching the game of football and seeing a good player.

On your other claim that his sole role is to rush the passer, you continue to neglect that Ware has dramatically improved his run defense. Running plays are part of the game too.

You constant argument back to his team is nonsense. You are then committed to discounting every player who plays on a bad team. Do you really want to do that? Do you really want to say Chris Samuels sole role was protecting QBs who still performed poorly and his team won 1 playoff game in his whole career so he was clearly a 1 dimensional player who is overrated and a product of a system? NO. No one would say that. So lets talk about Ware and lets do it in an objective manner. Not some other world where the cowboys lack of playoff wins in the late 90's has a bearing on him.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

tr1 has now stretched this thread out to 10 pages 147 posts.

A thread in which he's apparently made a complete fool of himself et all. Yet the thread runs to 10 pages.

Who's the fools and who's owned again Dallas fans?

Hail.

[Roger.Staubach]

Who's the fools and who's owned again Dallas fans?

He's arguing with as many Redskin fans as he is Dallas fans. That should tell you something.

For my money, the best post thus far has been from da#1skinsfan.

[tr1]

I've met people that are dumber than you. I promise. Sadly, I don't remember when.

This isn't golf, dude. If you are too stupid to realize that this is a team sport I suggest you purchase a television package that allows you to get the NFL Network.

:rotflmao:

Whenever you and others take the argument to a personal level, I win.

Make your arguments, try to score some points, but don't ignore facts. You'd be better of acknowledging Where has flaws, you team has flaws and your GM is not very good.

Some of us might take you seriously...until then VCD, DonCherry and a couple of others are the only puke fans worth debating.

---------- Post added May-14th-2011 at 07:38 AM ----------

This is awful. How are we bringing playoff victories into a discussion about ware being one of the best defensive players in the game??

Wake up folks, Ware is excellent. He is one of the best defensive players in the game.

Tony Romo sits to pee, playoff wins, wade Phillips, and any other ridiculous parallel point brought up has no bearing on the above. Ware is awesome, plain and simple.

This is ridiculous, can't read any more.

Wonderful. Skip the thread. I don't think I'm going to miss anymore of your posts.

Oh, and how many games in the one-and-done streak did Where participate in? How many of those games was he DOMINANT on defense?

I'll wait.

---------- Post added May-14th-2011 at 08:24 AM ----------

Again he graded number 4 LB against the run and number 2 overall pass rusher (any position this year).

:rotflmao:

Andre Carter and Rak had more sacks than Where in 2009...I guess on a one year performance, they should go to the HOF...

He has graded high consistently. Lets talk about Ware and not Romo sits to pee. He is a OLB in a 3-4 regardless of any game i saw you will claim it is unimportant or he didnt dominate, I know you will say he didnt dominate because you refuse to beleive that a guy who is top 2 or 4 in the league is dominating.

Does a 2 sack performance including a forced fumble in a 20 point playoff win count?

The pukes played an injury decimated Eagles team they had beaten twice before during that year. Besides, James was the star on the defense that day. Did you watch the game?

Your lack of respect and childish tactics are second to none. Where did i say Matthews is not a "real LB" and where did i say he did not have more "upside."

I never said either. Why the need to make these things up?

You've been putting words in my mouth in this thread consistently. Your failure at reading comprehension is amazing!

On your other claim that his sole role is to rush the passer, you continue to neglect that Ware has dramatically improved his run defense. Running plays are part of the game too.

"Dramatically" :rotflmao: I'm not buying that. He's adequate, but not great. The pukes' run defense has stunk lately...though more teams choose to pass on them because it's so easy to do...and the last I checked, Where in on the pukes' defense. BTW, last year James and Brookings were better statistically than Where. Keith Brookings!

Where is a pass specialist...with few run support responsibilities.

You constant argument back to his team is nonsense. You are then committed to discounting every player who plays on a bad team. Do you really want to do that? Do you really want to say Chris Samuels sole role was protecting QBs who still performed poorly and his team won 1 playoff game in his whole career so he was clearly a 1 dimensional player who is overrated and a product of a system? NO. No one would say that. So lets talk about Ware and lets do it in an objective manner. Not some other world where the cowboys lack of playoff wins in the late 90's has a bearing on him.

Here's an example of you making generalizations about my posts and ascribing things to me that I never said. I believed, until last year, that Ratliff was the best defensive player on the pukes team. I'd love to have him B&G...he's made Where a sack star...prior to that, it was Ellis.

You see, Where needs another player on the d to play exceedingly well for him to stand out. Otherwise, he's pretty much neutralized. Now, this is a very, very important point so I'll repeat it...Where NEEDS superior play by a teammate for him to stand out...and, that scheme, of course.

[skinsnshanny]

Andre Carter and Rak had more sacks than Where in 2009...I guess on a one year performance, they should go to the HOF...

This is in accurate. And ive given you many years of information not 1.

The pukes played an injury decimated Eagles team they had beaten twice before during that year. Besides, James was the star on the defense that day. Did you watch the game?

Ok so then you define big games, ive given you his divisional performance year after year and included playoffs. So find some big games, then compare his performance to other top guys, the success rate is not going to be different.

"Dramatically" :rotflmao: I'm not buying that. He's adequate, but not great. The pukes' run defense has stunk lately...though more teams choose to pass on them because it's so easy to do...and the last I checked, Where in on the pukes' defense. BTW, last year James and Brookings were better statistically than Where. Keith Brookings!

Well this is interesting. You are not buying that he dramatically has improved in the run game over his career. Seeing that he was not that good early on, but is not considered and graded in the top 5, Id call that a dramatic improvement.

Since you dont think the improvement was drastic, you must (by reason), have his run game already rated pretty high.

And NO Brooking did not rate better than ware or was not statistically better than Ware in the run the game. MOre tackles? Is that what you are saying? That is not a run game stat. Throwing out falsities is not having an actual discourse.

Where is a pass specialist...with few run support responsibilities.

You understand how the grading works dont you? The offense runs where they decide to run. If it is to Wares side and he goes after the QB he gets a bad score. If it is away from Ware and he doesnt contain on the backside, same thing. But yet his grades are not bad.

Here's an example of you making generalizations about my posts and ascribing things to me that I never said. I believed, until last year, that Ratliff was the best defensive player on the pukes team. I'd love to have him B&G...he's made Where a sack star...prior to that, it was Ellis

.

All i was doing was expanding your reasoning and logic to another situation. If it doesnt work thats because there is something in consistent with what you had said. You had said player X only does Y and the team still sucks, so he sucks.

You see, Where needs another player on the d to play exceedingly well for him to stand out. Otherwise, he's pretty much neutralized.

Football players play better when their teammates do? No way. If you can go 11 on 1, the player becomes less effective? No way.

If everyone else sucks the other team can 'neutralize' a player by double and triple teaming? No way. Your point only makes Ware's consistent success (while the rest of the pukes falter) more, not less impressive.