tr1 might have been right all along about DeMarcus Ware...

[Bubble Screen]

Thanks for the input, really good post here. 26 and calling people kids, no respect for other players, other fans, or even fans of the same team. Thanks though, see you at fedex.

There's no way the guy is 26. No 26 year old I know acts like he does.

But I'll give you a little more insight as to who you're dealing with here. Tweedr is the same guy that thinks Santana Moss is a better WR than Desean Jackson. That in itself should tell you the extent of his football "knowledge".

As for the insults: I'm amazed the guy is allowed to get away with all the name-calling he does. He's forever calling someone who disagrees with him a "kid", or "francis". And, he even dropped "little guy" on me a few times. Despite the fact that I'm 6'2", and he's 5'7".

Seriously, don't even waste your energy on the guy.

[Dallsux]

More specifically, an old school Skins fan. He remembers and gets it...

I became a Redskins fan when hating the Cowboys was not only a birthright but a requirement to remain in the family lol ...being called a Cowboys fan was the worst insult you could be given among my 7th grade classmates...nobody dared say "I wish Roger Staubach was the Skins' QB"...older, more knowledgeable relatives would point out the flaws and weaknesses of Dallas players and loved seeing it when other teams exploited them, especially our beloved Redskins...George Allen never won a SB with the Skins but NOBODY claiming to be a Skins fan would ever think of trading 10 Tom Landrys for even one Coach Allen (and most of us secretly admired Landry)...

We didn't require 5 straight years of playoff births before we felt comfortable blasting the Cowboys. We were Redskins fans, and that was enough. And we got the same thing from Dallas fans...15-1 or 1-15, Cowboys fans would blast our team and fan base...and as a Skins fan you not only expected it, you enjoyed the challenge of defending your team and putting a "damn Cowboys fan" in his place lol ...

Now? Now, we get way too many Redskins fans saying way too much of "I'd take Romo sits to pee on the Skins"..."At least the Cowboys have been to the playoffs"..."At least Jerry Jones has won some Super Bowls"...like any of that ****ing matters when it comes to our two franchises. Jeebus, put on a skirt and stop calling yourselves Skins fans if that's gonna be your take on things. :cool:

Seconded!

[Tweedr01]

If gettin owned is proving that multiple people who grade every play rate Ware in the top 2 of all pass rushers and in the top 4 of all LBs on non-passing plays, sure i got owned. Thanks for playing.

i don't even think the poke fans in this thread would agree with you on that, they've even stated as such that he's not in the same class. again, as cali said, you ignore stats and facts, or 'real talk' placed directly in front of you and then state your opinion as if it were fact.

fact: you are wrong

fact: i do not care how you show your fandom, but don't down mine or anyone elses if they are more diehard than you

fact: you should get seats in the whine and cheese section, i'm sure you'll have plenty of the former to provide

fact: i think you are a cowboys troll dressed as a skins fan

fact: tr1 and cali both took you to the shed

[Hitman21ST]

If gettin owned is proving that multiple people who grade every play rate Ware in the top 2 of all pass rushers and in the top 4 of all LBs on non-passing plays, sure i got owned. Thanks for playing.

You said it. "All LBs." That includes 3-4 ILBs and 4-3 LBs. Ray Lewis, Patrick Willis, James Harrison, Clay Matthews, LaMarr Woodley, Jon Beason, Lance Briggs, Jered Mayo, James Farrior, Karlos Dansby, London Fletcher, Lofa Tatupu and Brian Urlacher would like to disagree.

"But Hitman, those are ILBs and 4-3 LBs"

sns just said "all linebackers." That means everyone. Those I listed are better than Ware against the run and in coverage.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

You said it. "All LBs." That includes 3-4 ILBs and 4-3 LBs. Ray Lewis, Patrick Willis, James Harrison, Clay Matthews, LaMarr Woodley, Jon Beason, Lance Briggs, Jered Mayo, James Farrior, Karlos Dansby, London Fletcher, Lofa Tatupu and Brian Urlacher would like to disagree.

"But Hitman, those are ILBs and 4-3 LBs"

sns just said "all linebackers." That means everyone. Those I listed are better than Ware against the run and in coverage.

It's just like a member of tr1's fan club to ignore the substance of the thread yet again...if you can't provide "real talk" and talk rational football then you're just making the entire nation of Redskins fans look like fools in the eyes of others.

[/sns]

LoL! Once again a member of tr1's tiny fan club gets owned! Your post is embarrassing!

[/TRPB]

[Tweedr01]

You said it. "All LBs." That includes 3-4 ILBs and 4-3 LBs. Ray Lewis, Patrick Willis, James Harrison, Clay Matthews, LaMarr Woodley, Jon Beason, Lance Briggs, Jered Mayo, James Farrior, Karlos Dansby, London Fletcher, Lofa Tatupu and Brian Urlacher would like to disagree.

"But Hitman, those are ILBs and 4-3 LBs"

sns just said "all linebackers." That means everyone. Those I listed are better than Ware against the run and in coverage.

hey now, stop making sense, sns wants to talk 'real football', and because you disagree and proved it by using common sense you aren't talking 'real football' and are not a good fan...

[penasquito]

I read that article, and it did surprise me. It makes sense also as to why Shawne Merriman was so successful in the 3-4 when Wade was there, and maybe explains why (aside from the juicing) he fell off so much.

I still think Ware is a top pass rusher in the league, but this quote from Philips does make one wonder. Just looked at Ware's stats too, and didn't realize he has only one career interception ...

And he wasn't dropping back in coverage on that INT:

[Tweedr01]

And he wasn't dropping back in coverage on that INT:

but but but, hey wait a minute, aren't you a poke fan too? shouldn't you be busy photo shopping pictures to show us why he is God's gift to mankind? lol

[Hitman21ST]

It's just like a member of tr1's fan club to ignore the substance of the thread yet again...if you can't provide "real talk" and talk rational football then you're just making the entire nation of Redskins fans look like fools in the eyes of others.

[/sns]

LoL! Once again a member of tr1's tiny fan club gets owned! Your post is embarrassing!

[/TRPB]

[pjfootballer]

and this is another reason why i have a hard time believing that a lot of Skins fans feel this way about Ware. MOST Skins fans i talk to think the world of him...period.

I wouldn't say I "think the world" of him. I respect his abilities on the field, but I still hate his freakin' guts (not literally) for wearing that stupid star on his helmet.

[penasquito]

I've been looking at some stats as I read this thread, and its really interesting the names that get thrown out. LT, Charles Haley, Merriman, James Harrison, Suggs, Derrick Thomas, etc. Demarcus Ware has been in the league 6 years and has averaged 13 1/3 sacks per year so far. Any way you slice it, that puts him in elite company. This is far from a complete list, but here are some of the top passrushers from in their primes

I think the argument comes down to 2 perspectives: What're ya gonna believe, statistics or yer lyin' eyes? Stats can't tell you what the scheme was or who had more 'coverage' sacks, but if you're just saying, "I think this guy's better because...," why is anybody's judgment more valid than anybody else's?

[Hitman21ST]

I've been looking at some stats as I read this thread, and its really interesting the names that get thrown out. LT, Charles Haley, Merriman, James Harrison, Suggs, Derrick Thomas, etc. Demarcus Ware has been in the league 6 years and has averaged 13 1/3 sacks per year so far. Any way you slice it, that puts him in elite company. This is far from a complete list, but here are some of the top passrushers from in their primes

I think the argument comes down to 2 perspectives: What're ya gonna believe, statistics or yer lyin' eyes? Stats can't tell you what the scheme was or who had more 'coverage' sacks, but if you're just saying, "I think this guy's better because...," why is anybody's judgment more valid than anybody else's?

Those are great numbers, and help prove my and tr1's points, that the scheme (Wade's 5-2) accentuates Ware's abilities as a pass rusher and puts him into a position to get a sack more often than the other LBs you listed, and puts him in coverage or run support less often than the other LBs you listed. That is exactly the point. Ware's numbers aren't a product of how great he is, they are a product of the scheme that he played in.

I'm sure he would still have good numbers if he were asked to play DE or in a traditional 3-4 (as Wade's 5-2 is an offshoot of the traditional 3-4), just not the inflated numbers that he had the past few year.

[penasquito]

Those are great numbers, and help prove my and tr1's points, that the scheme (Wade's 5-2) accentuates Ware's abilities as a pass rusher and puts him into a position to get a sack more often than the other LBs you listed, and puts him in coverage or run support less often than the other LBs you listed. That is exactly the point. Ware's numbers aren't a product of how great he is, they are a product of the scheme that he played in.

I'm sure he would still have good numbers if he were asked to play DE or in a traditional 3-4 (as Wade's 5-2 is an offshoot of the traditional 3-4), just not the inflated numbers that he had the past few year.

Fascinating interpretation. So, Merriman's numbers must be similarly inflated, since he had Phillips as a DC, not to mention guys like Jamal Williams at the nose and Shawn Phillips pressuring the passer from the other side. And LTs numbers are obviously inflated, since no player like him had ever existed, and he had Bill Parcells and Bill Belichick scheming to get to the QB, not to mention guys like Leonard Marshall and Harry Carson and the rest of the defense. And of course, Derrick Thomas wouldn't have had near as many sacks without Neil Smith on the other side, or Gunther Cunningham dialing up the pressure. Do I need to mention who Terrell Suggs or James Harrison played for or with? Even Deacon Jones had Merlin Olsen right?

So, I guess all of the great players in the history of the NFL have inflated numbers due to the scheme they played in and who they played with, right? Doesn't that put us right back where we were?

[Hitman21ST]

Fascinating interpretation. So, Merriman's numbers must be similarly inflated, since he had Phillips as a DC, not to mention guys like Jamal Williams at the nose and Shawn Phillips pressuring the passer from the other side. And LTs numbers are obviously inflated, since no player like him had ever existed, and he had Bill Parcells and Bill Belichick scheming to get to the QB, not to mention guys like Leonard Marshall and Harry Carson and the rest of the defense. And of course, Derrick Thomas wouldn't have had near as many sacks without Neil Smith on the other side, or Gunther Cunningham dialing up the pressure. Do I need to mention who Terrell Suggs or James Harrison played for or with? Even Deacon Jones had Merlin Olsen right?

So, I guess all of the great players in the history of the NFL have inflated numbers due to the scheme they played in and who they played with, right? Doesn't that put us right back where we were?

Wow, reading comprehension isn't your strong suit. Phillips specifically said his scheme was designed to free up the weak side linebacker/outermost player on the weak side of the defensive line of scrimmage to rush the passer. That's why Merriman put up such high sack numbers while Phillips was his coordinator.

There's a difference between "scheming to get to the quarterback" and "scheming to free up a specific player to get to the quarterback." Read a couple pages in the thread before posting and you might have seen we've already had a conversation very similar to this.

LT beat everyone, from everywhere. He was such an athletic freak that he could come from anywhere and be dominant. It does help to have another pass rusher, and it's essential in Wade's scheme. Ware relies on a push from the interior defensive line to free him up. Tr1 put it best: how would he be able to put up such amazing sack numbers on a horrible defense otherwise? His coach designed the defense to free him up. His coach even said this. That's not debatable.

[Tweedr01]

Wow, reading comprehension isn't your strong suit. Phillips specifically said his scheme was designed to free up the weak side linebacker/outermost player on the weak side of the defensive line of scrimmage to rush the passer. That's why Merriman put up such high sack numbers while Phillips was his coordinator.

There's a difference between "scheming to get to the quarterback" and "scheming to free up a specific player to get to the quarterback." Read a couple pages in the thread before posting and you might have seen we've already had a conversation very similar to this.

LT beat everyone, from everywhere. He was such an athletic freak that he could come from anywhere and be dominant. It does help to have another pass rusher, and it's essential in Wade's scheme. Ware relies on a push from the interior defensive line to free him up. Tr1 put it best: how would he be able to put up such amazing sack numbers on a horrible defense otherwise? His coach designed the defense to free him up. His coach even said this. That's not debatable.

it also shows another reason why the secondary was so bad, send enough people to free up one and you leave the secondary on a literal island. ever wonder why it's so easy to pass on the pokes?

[Califan007 The Constipated]

I know what would happen...if Ware was available and the Skins signed him, he'd start having 9-10 sacks per season and would get beat during pass coverage (which he would be in more often)...and the mantra would be that the Skins are "career killers" and "look how great Ware was while with the Cowboys!"...Very few would chalk up a change in how being utilized differently within differing versions of the 3-4 effected his production. No, much more logical and would be "real football talk" to claim the Redskins are jinxed lol...

[Tweedr01]

I know what would happen...if Ware was available and the Skins signed him, he'd start having 9-10 sacks per season and would get beat during pass coverage (which he would be in more often)...and the mantra would be that the Skins are "career killers" and "look how great Ware was while with the Cowboys!"...Very few would chalk up a change in how being utilized differently within differing versions of the 3-4 effected his production. No, much more logical and would be "real football talk" to claim the Redskins are jinxed lol...

get outta here with that 'real football talk', we only want 'real football talk' how i describe 'real football talk' and your 'real football talk' doesn't help my agenda so it's not really 'real football talk' it's just regular old 'real football talk'....lol

[ABQCOWBOY]

This is silly. Wade's 34 doesn't accentuate the OLB anymore then anybody elses really. The unique think about Wades scheme is how he plays his NT and how he uses it to direct where the flow of the offensive play will go. I mean, if you want to say that Ware is the product of the scheme, OK. Makes no difference to me but I've watched the guy. He has skills enough to play the run very well, to play in coverage if you wanted him to and to rush the passer. The thing is, if you have a guy who can put up double digit sacks against double and triple teams, why would you want him to play the run all the time or drop back in coverage? That just doesn't make a lot of sense. If there is a reason why Ware's numbers exploded in 2007 and on, it's really more reflective of Greg Ellis moving to OLB and posting improved sack totals from the LOLB position and the emergence of Ratliff at NT. That basically allowed Ware to go from seeing constant triple teams and allowed him to see more double teams. Ware is a great player and he would be in any scheme IMO.

[Hitman21ST]

This is silly. Wade's 34 doesn't accentuate the OLB anymore then anybody elses really. The unique think about Wades scheme is how he plays his NT and how he uses it to direct where the flow of the offensive play will go. I mean, if you want to say that Ware is the product of the scheme, OK. Makes no difference to me but I've watched the guy. He has skills enough to play the run very well, to play in coverage if you wanted him to and to rush the passer. The thing is, if you have a guy who can put up double digit sacks against double and triple teams, why would you want him to play the run all the time or drop back in coverage? That just doesn't make a lot of sense. If there is a reason why Ware's numbers exploded in 2007 and on, it's really more reflective of Greg Ellis moving to OLB and posting improved sack totals from the LOLB position and the emergence of Ratliff at NT. That basically allowed Ware to go from seeing constant triple teams and allowed him to see more double teams. Ware is a great player and he would be in any scheme IMO.

Um, you might want to read the OP. Wade specifically said that his version of the 3-4 (5-2, if you will) is specifically designed to free up the weak side OLB, or, in the Cowboys' case, Ware. Not the NT, the weak side OLB. Those are Wade's words, not mine.

[tr1]

This is silly. Wade's 34 doesn't accentuate the OLB anymore then anybody elses really. The unique think about Wades scheme is how he plays his NT and how he uses it to direct where the flow of the offensive play will go. I mean, if you want to say that Ware is the product of the scheme, OK. Makes no difference to me but I've watched the guy. He has skills enough to play the run very well, to play in coverage if you wanted him to and to rush the passer. The thing is, if you have a guy who can put up double digit sacks against double and triple teams, why would you want him to play the run all the time or drop back in coverage? That just doesn't make a lot of sense. If there is a reason why Ware's numbers exploded in 2007 and on, it's really more reflective of Greg Ellis moving to OLB and posting improved sack totals from the LOLB position and the emergence of Ratliff at NT. That basically allowed Ware to go from seeing constant triple teams and allowed him to see more double teams. Ware is a great player and he would be in any scheme IMO.

:ols:

Read the OP's initial link...

"We're not going to drop him," Phillips said. "We're going to rush him. That's why I say we're more of a 5-2, in that those five guys are coming a lot of the time, especially the position Mario plays. DeMarcus Ware played that position, Bryce Paup –- on and on, guys that have led the league. They didn't lead the league in sacks by dropping a whole lot."

[penasquito]

Um, you might want to read the OP. Wade specifically said that his version of the 3-4 (5-2, if you will) is specifically designed to free up the weak side OLB, or, in the Cowboys' case, Ware. Not the NT, the weak side OLB. Those are Wade's words, not mine.

I don't know if this will help, but here's what Wade told the "Texans official website" (whatever that means...)

"They say '3-4,' '4-3,' all that,"

"We really play a 5-2. We play five defensive linemen that can rush the passer and two inside 'backers who can tackle people. And we think Mario certainly fits in there."

"We put (Williams) in the premier position,"

"You're rushing the passer more at Will (weakside linebacker), and so that's where we put him.

"We were looking in the draft for the best pass rusher. Well, we had him on our team, and so we just moved him to that position rather than going the other way around."

"We're not going to drop him,"

"We're going to rush him. That's why I say we're more of a 5-2, in that those five guys are coming a lot of the time, especially the position Mario plays. DeMarcus Ware played that position, Bryce Paup –- on and on, guys that have led the league. They didn't lead the league in sacks by dropping a whole lot."

"The more you can do with players scheme-wise helps you,"

"We're going to put Mario down some, but we're not going to tell them when. And same thing with Cushing: We're going to play him inside most of the time, but sometimes he's going to be rushing outside."

I don't know how you reconcile that with Hitman21ST's statement above, but I'm actually not even curious. My point is that the statistics generated by every player in the history of the NFL have been influenced by the scheme he played in, his teammates, and even the competition against whom he played, and on and on.

[tr1]

This is a great thread.

Puke fans (and some of the ES faithful who rely on ESPN too much) say scheme has nothing to do with Where's success, yet WADE HIMSELF says the weak side LB benefits from his 5-2 scheme!

Wade says it himself.

I'm not making this up.

I know it hurts some folks that I actually say somethings that aren't popular, but turn out to be spot-on.

I just watch football...and avoid the hype.

You fellas should try it.

---------- Post added May-19th-2011 at 07:35 PM ----------

I know what would happen...if Ware was available and the Skins signed him, he'd start having 9-10 sacks per season and would get beat during pass coverage (which he would be in more often)...and the mantra would be that the Skins are "career killers" and "look how great Ware was while with the Cowboys!"...Very few would chalk up a change in how being utilized differently within differing versions of the 3-4 effected his production. No, much more logical and would be "real football talk" to claim the Redskins are jinxed lol...

Too true.

:rotflmao:

---------- Post added May-19th-2011 at 07:36 PM ----------

get outta here with that 'real football talk', we only want 'real football talk' how i describe 'real football talk' and your 'real football talk' doesn't help my agenda so it's not really 'real football talk' it's just regular old 'real football talk'....lol

Let's talk 'talent'!

:rotflmao:

[Hitman21ST]

I don't know if this will help, but here's what Wade told the "Texans official website" (whatever that means...)

I don't know how you reconcile that with Hitman21ST's statement above, but I'm actually not even curious. My point is that the statistics generated by every player in the history of the NFL have been influenced by the scheme he played in, his teammates, and even the competition against whom he played, and on and on.

Wade told the Texans official site that in his 5-2 defense, the weakside backer is designed to specifically rush the passer, yet you can't reconcile that with me saying that Wade said the 5-2 defense is specifically designed to free up the weakside backer to rush the passer? :whoknows:

I'm not arguing your point. You're actually backing up what tr1, tweedr, and I are actually saying. Ware's stats are inflated because he benefits from a scheme that is designed to get him to be able to rush the passer. LT didn't play in a scheme that was designed to get him to the passer. He was such an athletic freak that he was able to do that from anywhere on the field. If you put Ware in our defense, he would average about 9-10 sacks a season. If you put Orakpo in Wade's defense as the weakside backer, they would get the same number of sacks Ware gets, if not more.

That is how his numbers are "inflated" and how he benefits from the scheme. Yes, every player in the NFL has been "influenced by the scheme he plays in." Ware benefits from that exact point. Ware is an average linebacker, who is a great pass rusher, who benefited from a scheme that was designed to get him to the quarterback. Period. Thank you for helping to prove our points.

[DeadExField]

Wade told the Texans official site that in his 5-2 defense, the weakside backer is designed to specifically rush the passer, yet you can't reconcile that with me saying that Wade said the 5-2 defense is specifically designed to free up the weakside backer to rush the passer? :whoknows:

I'm not arguing your point. You're actually backing up what tr1, tweedr, and I are actually saying. Ware's stats are inflated because he benefits from a scheme that is designed to get him to be able to rush the passer. LT didn't play in a scheme that was designed to get him to the passer. He was such an athletic freak that he was able to do that from anywhere on the field. If you put Ware in our defense, he would average about 9-10 sacks a season. If you put Orakpo in Wade's defense as the weakside backer, they would get the same number of sacks Ware gets, if not more.

That is how his numbers are "inflated" and how he benefits from the scheme. Yes, every player in the NFL has been "influenced by the scheme he plays in." Ware benefits from that exact point. Ware is an average linebacker, who is a great pass rusher, who benefited from a scheme that was designed to get him to the quarterback. Period. Thank you for helping to prove our points.

I agree with what you're saying for the most part, but I think Ware is above average average at his position as a core LB. But that's just my opinion, no real stats or analysis to back that up.

[Tweedr01]

This is a great thread.

Puke fans (and some of the ES faithful who rely on ESPN too much) say scheme has nothing to do with Where's success, yet WADE HIMSELF says the weak side LB benefits from his 5-2 scheme!

Wade says it himself.

I'm not making this up.

I know it hurts some folks that I actually say somethings that aren't popular, but turn out to be spot-on.

I just watch football...and avoid the hype.

You fellas should try it.

---------- Post added May-19th-2011 at 07:35 PM ----------

Too true.

:rotflmao:

---------- Post added May-19th-2011 at 07:36 PM ----------

Let's talk 'talent'!

:rotflmao:

i tell you what tr1, even when i don't agree with some things you say at the beginning of the season you usually end up right by the end of the season. i'm just too superstitious to make predictions like you but you usually get it dead right

psssh, 'talent is the only 'real football talk', we can't have a 'real football talk' without explaining to those poor souls who don't understand football that 'talent' is all that matters, didn't you hear? lol :ols::ols:

---------- Post added May-20th-2011 at 07:36 AM ----------

I agree with what you're saying for the most part, but I think Ware is above average average at his position as a core LB. But that's just my opinion, no real stats or analysis to back that up.

i would agree he's above average, he's just not GREAT like all the poke fans are trying to portray him. he has one specialty...rushing the passer, nothing else. being good at one thing does not a great linebacker make!