tr1 might have been right all along about DeMarcus Ware...

[Mr. Sinister]

Ware is a great pass rusher, no question about it. Whether he can be a "Complete Linebacker" in another scheme really doesn't matter to me. He is one of the best ( if not the best) at what he does, which is getting to the quarterback, period. A lot of great players prbably wouldn't be as successful as they are, if they were on a different team, for a multitude of reasons, but that does not change the fact that they are still great players. It's really not that difficult to understand, yet too many people want to make it seem like it's rocket science.

[Hitman21ST]

Because he plays from a two point stance much of the time and it is his official listed position.

You grade players according to their ability to play their role, not their ability to play every role. At an absolute minimum, you have to be smart enough to recognize that what a 3-4 OLB does is not at all like what a 3-4 ILB, 4-3 OLB, or 4-3 MLB does. Comparing Ware to Ray Lewis, Brian Urlacher, or Jon Beason is asinine. Comparing him to Suggs, Woodley, Harrison, Hali, Matthews, or even Lawrence Taylor is fair.

Then compare him to Suggs, Woodley, Harrison, Hali, and Matthews. They all can cover fairly well for their respective teams. That's one of the reasons the Steelers defense is so good, is that they have two outside linebackers that can cover and blitz, so you can't really prepare for that. Ware isn't a threat covering, so offenses can scheme against that. Get him into coverage, or play off his blitzes.

You grade linebackers according to their role. Part of the role of the outside linebacker in a traditional 3-4 includes coverage duties. Considering that Wade specifically schemed his defense to not use Ware in coverage, that tells you two things:

1) Ware's sack totals are higher than that of an actual 3-4 linebacker - product of scheme, wouldn't get those same numbers as a traditional OLB.

2) Ware's coverage ability leave something to be desired.

QED: Ware is a hell of a pass rusher, but an average linebacker.

[skinsnshanny]

I was reading nfl.com, and there is an article on there about the Texans' new defensive front, and the role Mario Williams will play in it:

So where does DeMarcus Ware come into this? tr1 has, on multiple occasions, stated that Ware is a product of the Cowboys defensive scheme, and that he wouldn't be as productive in another. To back his claim up, he has routinely stated that Ware doesn't drop into coverage, and the defense calls for him to blitz more than your average outside linebacker. Wade Phillips continues, alluding to that very same point::

Then compare him to Suggs played with his hand in the dirt 3/4 of the time..., Woodley, Harrison, Hali uhh Hali dropped into pass coverage 1% more than Ware, and Matthews.

You grade linebackers according to their role. Part of the role of the outside linebacker in a traditional 3-4 includes coverage duties. Considering that Wade specifically schemed his defense to not use Ware in coverage, that tells you two things:

1) Ware's sack totals are higher than that of an actual 3-4 linebacker - product of scheme, wouldn't get those same numbers as a traditional OLB.

2) Ware's coverage ability leave something to be desired.

QED: Ware is a hell of a pass rusher, but an average linebacker.

Im confused, how does the fact that Ware almost always rushes the passer mean that he is any less good of a player???

When Ware had 20 sacks, he lead the league, not just LBs in sacks. The sack stat allows comparison to all players (defensive ends included).

Are you really willing to argue that players such as bruce smith or reggie white are products of a system b/c they rush the passer on every play?

NO! We are going to realize that their job is to get to the passer and they were great at it. So is Ware (im not saying he is at those guys all time level, just using it as a comparison).

Or modern day example of Jared Allen. Is he overrated or simply a product of the system because he rushes the passer? NO.

--I can guess your response as well. Ware is a LB, the guys i just named are DE's.

But that simply cant be a real response. It doesn't matter what combination of letters is next to a players name, what matters is what the player is asked to do and how well he does it. A 3-4 OLB is very comparable to DE's at times. Some may even have a rule much closer to a 4-3 DE than a 4-3 ILB. This in no way means the OLB is an inferior player or isnt 'complete.'

and Ware is NOT just compared to other LBS. As you will see later in this post, his sack numbers are also compared to DEs and any other position.

Here is a quick one: In Ware's first 6 seasons only 1 other player has averaged over 10 sacks a season. Not just OLBS, not just LBS, ANY OTHER PLAYER. Period. (and Ware averaged more). The comparison is made to guys who rush the passer MORE often then Ware. Are you going to say that every DE in the league is overrated?

You say:

1. Grade players based on their role (this is correct)

2. "Part of the role of the outside linebacker in a traditional 3-4 includes coverage duties" (this is correct for some players)

So I ask

...Are you his coach? Why do you get to define his role? Can you show me stats of how often he is in coverage? His role is what the coach decides it to be based on each play called. Thats it. You definition of what Ware is supposed to do each play is not accurate. If Ware was constantly in coverage, then you could try to make your point, but he is not.

As the link you provided shows, Wares main job is to get to the passer and he does it well. Some years he does it better than anyone (and this includes players who pass rush every single play).

So then if the argument is that Ware is not a complete player, again how well does Jared Allen over the pass? How well and often did bruce smith do it? Or does it really not matter because their assignment isnt to cover the pass...

Here is another example: Phillip Daniels. He had some quality years here, but never had sack numbers. Does that mean he was a poor DE? NO. His assignment was run stopping and contain.

Is Peyton Manning any less the QB because he isnt ask to run bootlegs and rollouts as much as Aaron Rodgers....

Its all about what a guy is asked to do and how well he does it.

Ware has been asked to rush the passer, he does it as well or better than anyone.

***A Couple final thoughts: Here is something even more impressive, the fact that teams know Ware is coming (and that he is coming almost every play) means that he doesnt take anyone by surprise. Rather teams know where he is and what he is going to do, but they cant stop him. Thats even more impressive and undercuts the entire other side of the debate.

Also, profootballfocus (they grade every player and every play) rated Ware the 2nd best overall pass rusher in 2010 (every position) and out of just LBS he was rated the 4th best against the run. Hence, regardless if it is a run or a pass play, Ware is extremely effective. If its a pass play then only 1 other player in the entire league would be more effective to have on the field. If its a run play, only 3 more LBS would better to have than Ware. Im pretty sure those are the only 2 type of plays.

Side note: It was a newsworthy event when T. Suggs occasionally dropped into pass coverage in a Ravens mini-camp. . . (and when he has in games he has gotten beat and picked on...hence he tends to be a pass rusher)

[Roger.Staubach]

I could argue that since Ware is one dimensional and, therefore, predictable, it is harder for him to get sacks. Offensive coordinators can easily game-plan against him to negate his effectiveness since the only thing that he can do is rush the passer and they know he is going to do it on every play. I am surprised that he gets any sacks at all. It really is an uphill battle for him.

I can only imagine what his numbers would be if his defensive coordinators were to utilize him as a complete linebacker. Offensive coordinators would have no idea whether or not he would be in coverage and therefore not be able to account for him on every play. He would probably end up with 30 sacks and 7 interceptions against NFCE opponents alone.

It really sucks that Ware's numbers are so low due to the fact that he is a product of the scheme he is forced to play in.

**just read and realized that skinsnshanny posted a similar line of thinking. Great minds think alike, I suppose.

[tr1]

I could argue that since Ware is one dimensional and, therefore, predictable, it is harder for him to get sacks. Offensive coordinators can easily game-plan against him to negate his effectiveness since the only thing that he can do is rush the passer and they know he is going to do it on every play. I am surprised that he gets any sacks at all. It really is an uphill battle for him.

I can only imagine what his numbers would be if his defensive coordinators were to utilize him as a complete linebacker. Offensive coordinators would have no idea whether or not he would be in coverage and therefore not be able to account for him on every play. He would probably end up with 30 sacks and 7 interceptions against NFCE opponents alone.

It really sucks that Ware's numbers are so low due to the fact that he is a product of the scheme he is forced to play in.

**just read and realized that skinsnshanny posted a similar line of thinking. Great minds think alike, I suppose.

This post takes the cake.

A guy in a 5-2 scheme who is the designated pass rusher in VERY LIKELY to get several sacks a game, provided his cohorts fulfill their role in occupying blockers.

It's a very risky scheme that makes an average secondary exceedingly vulnerable to big plays. The idea is to apply pressure on every passing down...hoping that the secondary can hold up. As you saw with the pukes recently, their secondary hasn't been up to the challenge...well, actually, their defensive line hasn't been holding up their part of the bargain...except for having their designated pass rusher get the glam stats based on the odds of employing that scheme.

Again, why is this so difficult to understand? Wade will always have a featured pass rusher who will be in the top list of sackers. It's because of the high-risk scheme that he employs.

Where has benefited from Wade's scheme.

Where's not HOF material. As has been pointed out numerous times in this thread, he lacks when it comes to pass coverage. Oh, and were it not for the incredible hype machine the pukes' enjoy, he wouldn't even be mentioned on most Sundays.

---------- Post added May-12th-2011 at 07:12 AM ----------

So I ask

...Are you his coach? Why do you get to define his role? Can you show me stats of how often he is in coverage? His role is what the coach decides it to be based on each play called. Thats it. You definition of what Ware is supposed to do each play is not accurate. If Ware was constantly in coverage, then you could try to make your point, but he is not.

Where is great in a 5-2 scheme...no question about it. Is he a complete linebacker? No...he's a pass rushing specialist.

Look, how does a guy lead the league in sacks when he plays on such a poor defense? Answer: The defensive scheme's priority is to pressure the passer...one could make the point that Where even takes plays off simply because he's always motoring for the sack...something that's quite difficult on a sustained drive. And, that one play he takes off, certainly can result in a big play for the opposition.

I've seen Where take plays off...have you?

---------- Post added May-12th-2011 at 07:13 AM ----------

Don't get yourself too hung up on the fact that Ware is dubbed a linebacker.

He's not 'dubbed' a linebacker...that's what he is.

[KDawg]

He's not 'dubbed' a linebacker...that's what he is.

You know, this is my same argument for Rak.

People say he's a great linebacker. He's not. He's a great pass rusher and a mediocre linebacker. He's actually an eerily similar player to Ware.

Of course, Rak is better because he's wearing the good guys colors.

They both excel at what they do and struggle in other areas. It's good that they are both playing the WILL position more often than not so they can highlight their talents

[Hitman21ST]

You know, this is my same argument for Rak.

People say he's a great linebacker. He's not. He's a great pass rusher and a mediocre linebacker. He's actually an eerily similar player to Ware.

Of course, Rak is better because he's wearing the good guys colors.

They both excel at what they do and struggle in other areas. It's good that they are both playing the WILL position more often than not so they can highlight their talents

And no one is arguing that Rak is an elite linebacker. The (small) difference is Rak is asked to drop plenty more than Ware. Granted, Rak still rushes more than he drops, but he drops more than Ware.

If you want to discount that, then call Rak a pass-rushing specialist. I have no problem with that. He was brought in to get sacks, he'll just never be an elite linebacker unless he A) does EVERYTHING an OLB is expected to do (that includes dropping into coverage) and continues his upward trend of having an affect on pass plays (hold or sack).

It's like the Puke fans here have blinders on...they criticize Rak for being a liability in coverage, yet give Ware a pass on that aspect of playing the position.

[Tweedr01]

And no one is arguing that Rak is an elite linebacker. The (small) difference is Rak is asked to drop plenty more than Ware. Granted, Rak still rushes more than he drops, but he drops more than Ware.

If you want to discount that, then call Rak a pass-rushing specialist. I have no problem with that. He was brought in to get sacks, he'll just never be an elite linebacker unless he A) does EVERYTHING an OLB is expected to do (that includes dropping into coverage) and continues his upward trend of having an affect on pass plays (hold or sack).

It's like the Puke fans here have blinders on...they criticize Rak for being a liability in coverage, yet give Ware a pass on that aspect of playing the position.

This is exactly right and points out the flaw in the pokes excuses. No one is saying where isn't a very good athlete, but he lacks certain skills to be ELITE at his position, which IS LINEBACKER.

The same can be said about rak right now, no one believes that rak isn't a great athlete, but he does lack certain skills that would make him elite.

The big difference here is that skins fans have no problem admitting this, puke fans on the other hand bury their heads in the sand, or build strawmen to attack so they don't actually have to argue the facts. Someone even did the "Well I have seen where drop into coverage and do AWESOME, I have no video proof to back this up, and the only stats I have are from bleacher report, and I don't even have a link to it because you should trust the fact that I came across it a few months ago and can remember it and know it is TRUTH because it was on the interwebz....so there!"

[Audible_Red40]

D.Ware is nothing more then a Kevin Greene type of his time. His role is to get the QB. You can not judge these guys on their "overall" play as a LB, but one as a pass rushing LB. Scheme or not. You play players in schemes all the time.

If we are debating Ware as a product of a scheme, you must rate K.Greene as a prodcut of a scheme. But he is after all considered a great LB, and one of the best of all time. But I wouldn't want Greene covering a TE out in space that's for sure.

[KDawg]

And no one is arguing that Rak is an elite linebacker. The (small) difference is Rak is asked to drop plenty more than Ware. Granted, Rak still rushes more than he drops, but he drops more than Ware.

If you want to discount that, then call Rak a pass-rushing specialist. I have no problem with that. He was brought in to get sacks, he'll just never be an elite linebacker unless he A) does EVERYTHING an OLB is expected to do (that includes dropping into coverage) and continues his upward trend of having an affect on pass plays (hold or sack).

It's like the Puke fans here have blinders on...they criticize Rak for being a liability in coverage, yet give Ware a pass on that aspect of playing the position.

Rak drops more, but that's because Wade Phillips > Jim Haslett. Phillips utilizes his talent extremely well. Not exposing Ware to coverage is one of the smartest things he's ever done. Put the players in position to succeed. That's why Ware is an outstanding player. And when it's all said and done could be a hall of famer. Not because he's a good outside linebacker, but because he's a damned good pass rusher, for whatever reason.

I've always been of the opinion that most hall of famers are as good as they are due to good coaching and great support (as well as their own talents). Wade utilizing a 5-2 to employ Ware has made Ware look outstanding, couple that with Ratliff and the interior doing a pretty decent job and Ware's athletic ability and you have a potential hall of famer.

Haslett uses his personnel, for the most part, like crap.

He'd probably drop Ware in coverage, too, exposing him for being a not so great OLB. I think this is why us 'Skins fans can admit Rak's flaws... Because Haslett puts them on display for the world to see. Phillips is smarter than that.

It'll be interesting to see if Ware produces the same without Phillips. I'm not sure he will. But it remains to be seen.

And for the record, I think it's time that we start to call one of the 3-4 OLBs something different... Outside linebacker implies the responsibilities of a linebacker... In the 3-4 the WILL is generally not doing the same things. In fact, I think it would help us teach the youth the 3-4 system a bit easier

Now, with Kerrigan, Rak is probably going to have to drop more often than he did last year. Kerrigan is another pass rushing type, in my opinion.

Ware is a bit better in space than Rak, but he's had more time in the two point stance as well.

I think they are very, very similar players and in the end I think Rak will put up the same kind of numbers, if not better. But Ware is GREAT at what he does.

Anyone saying Ware is a great LINEBACKER is out of their mind

[da#1skinsfan]

With all this back and forth, has anyone taken the time to go back to the original thread, pull a specific quote that was proven right or wrong, and compare it to what is being said now in this thread?

[Mr. Jones]

To argue against Ware being one of the best defensive players in the NFL, and on his way to a HOF career is just ignorant and obstinate. Since he entered the NFL no player has recorded as many sacks over 13 a year. Some people are trying to argue it as scheme, but he's done this under 4 different defensive coordinators in his 6 years and while being one of the best run defending linebackers in the NFL. Even last year when opposing offenses singled him out as the one player they had to stop on an otherwise under performing defense he lead the NFL for the second time in his career he still accumulated more solo tackles than any other of the top 10 sack artists, and only 1 player in the top 20 had more. He is a 5 time All-Pro, he was the 2008 NFC defensive player of the year, he is one of 5 players to lead the NFL in sacks in more than one season (Mark Gastineau in 1983–84, Reggie White in 1987–88, Kevin Greene in 1994 and 1996 and Michael Strahan in 2001 and 2003 being the others). In short he is REALLY REALLY GOOD.

He is not a top cover LB, but he is also not bad at it either. With his 4.56 speed he has the athletic ability to drop into the flat and defend against RBs and TEs, but doing so is somewhat of a waste of his amazing ability to beat double and triple team blocks while creating havoc in the backfield. Some people throw meaningless things like "he never takes over a game" like in say...2009 when despite seeing limited duty because of a sprained neck against the then undefeated Saints he sacked and stripped Drew Brees for the second time sealing a win for the Cowboys to keep their playoff hopes alive. Or 2008 when he set the tone sacking Eli 3 times and forcing 2 fumbles in a game where the Giants gave up as many sacks (8) as they scored points, after giving up only 15 in the previous 14 games. Heck, his rookie year in Carolina he had 3 sacks, all for forced fumbles, as the Cowboys eeked out a 24-20 win.

As a 3-4 WILL LB his job is mostly to rush the passer and seal the edge against run plays, which he does extraordinarily well. He plays his position as well anyone in the NFL, and does so consistently.

[Mr. Sinister]

With all this back and forth, has anyone taken the time to go back to the original thread, pull a specific quote that was proven right or wrong, and compare it to what is being said now in this thread?

I don't know. I will however, be completely honest and say that the argument being made by tr1's personal fan club is probably the least logical argument I've ever seen. Isn't it the ultimate goal of every coordinator in the league to put their guys in the best position to make plays? Seriously, no one gives a damn whether ot not Ware is a "pure" LB, you know why? Because he's made a living in the opposing teams backfield for the last five years. He is an absolute monster, and that's all that matters.

[Roger.Staubach]

To argue against Ware being one of the best defensive players in the NFL, and on his way to a HOF career is just ignorant and obstinate. Since he entered the NFL no player has recorded as many sacks over 13 a year. Some people are trying to argue it as scheme, but he's done this under 4 different defensive coordinators in his 6 years and while being one of the best run defending linebackers in the NFL. Even last year when opposing offenses singled him out as the one player they had to stop on an otherwise under performing defense he lead the NFL for the second time in his career he still accumulated more solo tackles than any other of the top 10 sack artists, and only 1 player in the top 20 had more. He is a 5 time All-Pro, he was the 2008 NFC defensive player of the year, he is one of 5 players to lead the NFL in sacks in more than one season (Mark Gastineau in 1983–84, Reggie White in 1987–88, Kevin Greene in 1994 and 1996 and Michael Strahan in 2001 and 2003 being the others). In short he is REALLY REALLY GOOD.

He is not a top cover LB, but he is also not bad at it either. With his 4.56 speed he has the athletic ability to drop into the flat and defend against RBs and TEs, but doing so is somewhat of a waste of his amazing ability to beat double and triple team blocks while creating havoc in the backfield. Some people throw meaningless things like "he never takes over a game" like in say...2009 when despite seeing limited duty because of a sprained neck against the then undefeated Saints he sacked and stripped Drew Brees for the second time sealing a win for the Cowboys to keep their playoff hopes alive. Or 2008 when he set the tone sacking Eli 3 times and forcing 2 fumbles in a game where the Giants gave up as many sacks (8) as they scored points, after giving up only 15 in the previous 14 games. Heck, his rookie year in Carolina he had 3 sacks, all for forced fumbles, as the Cowboys eeked out a 24-20 win.

As a 3-4 WILL LB his job is mostly to rush the passer and seal the edge against run plays, which he does extraordinarily well. He plays his position as well anyone in the NFL, and does so consistently.

Wow. Actual facts versus opinions labeled as facts. Great post.

[Tweedr01]

Wow. Actual facts versus opinions labeled as facts. Great post.

how are these considered facts? where is the proof? as of right now it's just like every other person before him, spouting info he heard from some guy at some point in time...that's called heresay....or opinions labeled as facts from someone who has an obvious agenda

i can already point out one incorrect part of those paragraphs in the third sentence, 4 defensive coordinators in 6 years? last i checked phillips was there for what 3-4 years? and please don't tell me because he was fired in the middle of the season that the guy who took over ran a different scheme, he was just one of phillips' assistants running the same 5-2 scheme.

[Mr. Jones]

how are these considered facts? where is the proof? as of right now it's just like every other person before him, spouting info he heard from some guy at some point in time...that's called heresay....or opinions labeled as facts from someone who has an obvious agenda

i can already point out one incorrect part of those paragraphs in the third sentence, 4 defensive coordinators in 6 years? last i checked phillips was there for what 3-4 years? and please don't tell me because he was fired in the middle of the season that the guy who took over ran a different scheme, he was just one of phillips' assistants running the same 5-2 scheme.

4 Defensive coordinators, Mike Zimmer, Brian Stewart, Wade Philips and Paul Pasqualoni all served as defensive coordinators over the past 6 years, with Mike Zimmer under Parcells being a radically different 3-4 than the one Wade ran. As for Pasqualioni, he also ran a very noticeably different scheme than Wade, relying on fewer blitzes and a softer zone coverage scheme. This didn't stop the Cowboys defense last year from hemorrhaging yardage and points but did increase their turnovers. All the stats from my previous post were taken from NFL.com and ESPN.com or other reputable sites easily found via Google.

[Mr. Sinister]

To steal a line from zoony, I think someone just got *****slapped.

[Tweedr01]

4 Defensive coordinators, Mike Zimmer, Brian Stewart, Wade Philips and Paul Pasqualoni all served as defensive coordinators over the past 6 years, with Mike Zimmer under Parcells being a radically different 3-4 than the one Wade ran. As for Pasqualioni, he also ran a very noticeably different scheme than Wade, relying on fewer blitzes and a softer zone coverage scheme. This didn't stop the Cowboys defense last year from hemorrhaging yardage and points but did increase their turnovers. All the stats from my previous post were taken from NFL.com and ESPN.com or other reputable sites easily found via Google.

1-Mike Zimmer

2-Brian Stewart, he was doughboy's DC....but it was still doughboys defense, much like the shanahans here, it's still mikes offense

3-Pasqualoni, still doughboys DC

You can't have it both ways, you can't count Brian Stewart and PP as DC because Phillips was the HC, and then count Phillips as a DC too, it's one or the other

Really, there have only been 2 defensive coordinators, and 2 assistants.

Is PP gonna be DC this year or is Rob Ryan the DC?

EDIT: and the 'stats' you are providing still are not backed up by anything, it is just you saying, "I found these at sites you would consider reputable, but I don't need to actually show you, just take my word for it."

[TonyRomoProBowl]

This entire thread and the notion of Ware being an "average" player benefiting from the scheme in which he plays in, is laughable....no, no......its the funniest thing I have ever seen on a Message board.

No doubt i will be flamed for this and I will be told, that my quality in post is not up to par, and that I seem angry or upset (in which i am neither)....or that I need to chill......etc!

But come one. Look at what we have here and where this thread has gone to, and furthermore, how far off we all strayed from the original point of TR1's that was to say : Demarcus Ware is a product of the scheme in which he plays and would be average at best in other schemes....including the thought that he (Ware) would be nothing more then an average DE in a 4-3.....a point that many of you have grazed over........this article, and everyone pointing towards Ware as being a "pass rush" specialist.........points pretty damn good evidence at the fact that he would excel at playing as a DE in a 4-3......its what he does, he is a pass rushing specialist.....by design he gets to the QB, whether it be through one-on-one battles with a Tackle or a TE, or in some cases doubled up (or chipped) by a RB.

Also in this thread, something far more hilarious then the "Ware is average" notion came a statement of "Cooley has abused Ware on a regular basis".........Which put me on a little fact finding mission that ya may find interesting.

Cooley Stats VS Dallas

2005- Game 1- (2-20 0TD's)

2005-Game 2 - (6-71 3 TD) the first TD ...an 8 yard catch was on D. Ware. Ware had Man coverage on Cooley and lost him in the end zone for the TD) the 2nd and 3rd TD was when D Ware was Rushing the QB.......(verified on highlights on NFL.com)

2006-Game 1- (1-23 0TD)

2006- Game 2 (3-66 1TD) ...TD came when WARE was rushing the QB) (verified on highlights on NFL.com)

2007-Game 1- (8-89 1 TD) ....TD came when WARE was rushing the QB) (verified on highlights on NFL.com)

2007-Game 2 - (5-42 0TD)

2008- Game 1 (4-28 0 TD

2008-Game 2 (7-47 0TD)

2009- BOTH GAMES COOLEY WAS INJ

2010 - Game 1 6-80 0TD

2010-Game 2 6-62 1 TD (TD came when WARE was rushing the QB)

Chris Cooley VS Dallas in his career (10 games) 47-528-6TD (3 in 1 game)

Against D Ware he scored 1 TD (an 8 yard pass on man coverage) the other 5 TD's came when Ware was rushing the QB.......

All in all (47-528-6) is good numbers in 10 games for a TE...and like i said, one of the games best 4-5 TE overall!

I cant narrow down how many of those catches were with Ware on coverage, because the highlights are not that detailed on NFL.com, but all 6 of his TD"s against Dallas are on the game highlight recap Vids, and only 1 of them came against Demarcus Ware.........

I am willing to even accept that some of those catches against Dallas in 05-06-07 were against Ware.....but to call it "ABUSED ON A REGULAR BASIS"...would indeed be quite the exaggeration dont ya think?????

but anyway....back to the topic......

this thread eventually took another turn towards "Demarcus Ware is no Ray Lewis".......LMAO....not only do they play completely different positions, ..........Ray Lewis is by far the best "LB" any of us have ever seen play the game.

This Thread......is dumb!

and also..........someone says "Ware is a great pass rusher" but not so good LB"....really? Have you watched how well Ware plays against the run? Do you take that into account at all?????

He is not Darrell Green you guys, ....He is 6'4 262 and runs a 4.61/40..........He is not lining up on slot receivers .........He is a OLB...in a 3-4. And a darn good one. one of today's best actually.

EDIT: Yep....in 3 years before Wade Cooley ABUSED Ware for 1 TD in 6 games........again...as you were told, please Shut it........when you obviously have no clue what you are talking about

[Mr. Jones]

1-Mike Zimmer

2-Brian Stewart, he was doughboy's DC....but it was still doughboys defense, much like the shanahans here, it's still mikes offense

3-Pasqualoni, still doughboys DC

You can't have it both ways, you can't count Brian Stewart and PP as DC because Phillips was the HC, and then count Phillips as a DC too, it's one or the other

Really, there have only been 2 defensive coordinators, and 2 assistants.

Is PP gonna be DC this year or is Rob Ryan the DC?

EDIT: and the 'stats' you are providing still are not backed up by anything, it is just you saying, "I found these at sites you would consider reputable, but I don't need to actually show you, just take my word for it."

Zimmer was the DC under Parcels in Ware's first two years, then two years of Briant Stewart who was then fired after the defenses collapse in 2008. In 2009 Wade Philips took over as HC and DC to "fix the defense" which he did that year as they were the #2 scoring defense in the NFL. 2010 was all aboard the fail train with Paul Pasqualoni being the linebackers coach previous to Wade being fired. In the future please don't comment about things when you don't know ****.

As for the stats...80 sacks in 6 years http://www.nfl.com/players/demarcusware/profile?id=WAR350675 next most sacks by a player during that time period Jared Allen http://www.nfl.com/players/jaredallen/profile?id=ALL454745 who piled up 74.

Top sack artists in 2010 and their tackle totals, easy enough to readhttp://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=SACKS&conference=null&season=2010&seasonType=REG

What other stats do you want?

[Tweedr01]

:cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry:

that is how i interpreted your long, long, long post

but at least you provided something resembling stats, although when they said cooley abused ware it was prior to doughboy...which your stats showed

[TonyRomoProBowl]

Zimmer was the DC under Parcels in Ware's first two years, then two years of Briant Stewart who was then fired after the defenses collapse in 2008. In 2009 Wade Philips took over as HC and DC to "fix the defense" which he did that year as they were the #2 scoring defense in the NFL. 2010 was all aboard the fail train with Paul Pasqualoni being the linebackers coach previous to Wade being fired. In the future please don't comment about things when you don't know ****.

MY MAN........

And lets close the thread.........this man has has shut it all down, product of the scheme....all 6 of em....hahahahaha. im being a tad sarcastic here, but there is some truth in it though..........

[Tweedr01]

Zimmer was the DC under Parcels in Ware's first two years, then two years of Briant Stewart who was then fired after the defenses collapse in 2008. In 2009 Wade Philips took over as HC and DC to "fix the defense" which he did that year as they were the #2 scoring defense in the NFL. 2010 was all aboard the fail train with Paul Pasqualoni being the linebackers coach previous to Wade being fired. In the future please don't comment about things when you don't know ****.

someones upset, you just confirmed everything i posted, thanks :thumbsup:

[Mr. Jones]

someones upset, you just confirmed everything i posted, thanks :thumbsup:

I would say that I listed the 4 defensive coordinators Ware played for, under 3 head coaches, and you responded with an irrelevant picture. TROLL MOAR PLZ

[TonyRomoProBowl]

and when all else fails, post silly pictures you get on the interwebz to deflect from your own ownage........HAHA! CLASSIC.......

---------- Post added May-12th-2011 at 11:28 AM ----------

I would say that I listed the 4 defensive coordinators Ware played for, under 3 head coaches, and you responded with an irrelevant picture. TROLL MOAR PLZ

the classic picture deflection..........I am not sure i have ever seen a more obvious case then this one.........HA!