Tweedr01 Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 Interesting. He's the 3rd best LB but somehow the 2nd best Defensive player. Makes sense. "Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!....." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitman21ST Posted May 25, 2011 Author Share Posted May 25, 2011 I challenge you on this one..........Find me the post or anything close to a Dallas fan saying (when discussing Ware getting beat or not playing well in coverage) that "its not his job to cover. This feels like you just pulled it out of the air, not accusing you of that, but definitely questioning it? From earlier in the thread... Why would any Def Cord take a GREAT pass rusher like Ware and use him in coverage on passing downs??? who would do that and why?> Its a very simple way to fired is what it is........ And then... Also, any posts "harp(ing) on Rak for his lack of coverage ability" would be interesting to see. wont be any.......i cant remember anyone getting on Rak about his coverage skills...why bother,m dude is a class "A" balls to the walls pass rusher, who gives a F if he can cover, and why bother putting there for more then a few plays a year. Let me refer you... Ware does what he does best, rush the passer. Orakpo sucks at coverage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tweedr01 Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 From earlier in the thread...And then... Let me refer you... errrrr....uhhhh...what he meant to say was.....uhhhhh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsnshanny Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 This just in: Peyton Manning is not good at running the football. Thus he is not a complete player and all his acclaim is simply due to blue team mega media hype. ---------- Post added May-25th-2011 at 04:52 PM ---------- From earlier in the thread...And then... Let me refer you... TRPB's comment didnt say anything about Ware not playing well in coverage.... ---------- Post added May-25th-2011 at 04:55 PM ---------- Interesting. He's the 3rd best LB but somehow the 2nd best Defensive player. Makes sense. And when you read the actual articles you see how the rankings were done and why the are like they are. The fact that Ware is a hybrid type player (as are a lot of 3-4 OLBS) may help answer your dissonance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitman21ST Posted May 25, 2011 Author Share Posted May 25, 2011 TRPB's comment didnt say anything about Ware not playing well in coverage.... We're not talking about how well he covers, TRPB asked me to find something that referenced that coverage isn't in Ware's job description. The quote from TRPB that I posted does just that. And when you read the actual articles you see how the rankings were done and why the are like they are. The fact that Ware is a hybrid type player (as are a lot of 3-4 OLBS) may help answer your dissonance You must have gotten your argument training from If he's the third best linebacker, and linebackers are defenders, then he's at best the third best defender. QED: Ware is not the second best defender in the league, and the Puke hype machine rolls on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyRomoProBowl Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 We're not talking about how well he covers, TRPB asked me to find something that referenced that coverage isn't in Ware's job description. The quote from TRPB that I posted does just that.You must have gotten your argument training from If he's the third best linebacker, and linebackers are defenders, then he's at best the third best defender. QED: Ware is not the second best defender in the league, and the Puke hype machine rolls on. That is a total reach Hit.....and not at all in context that i intended it........ My statement was made in reference to "why on earth would any DC want to put Ware in coverage a lot based on him being one of the best if not THE best pass rusher in the league........which i stand by,....makes no sense to use him in coverage any more then what is necessary...heck why not blitz Revis 99% of the time..........come on Hit, this wont fly....shouldnt fly.....cant fly, we are all to smart, responsible and honest to allow that here.......be fair. AND.............your statement was: The difference also being that Dallas fans routinely harp on Rak for his lack of coverage ability, but then dismiss Ware's struggles because "it's not his job to cover." And the one quote you found on Rak...was a skins fan....... Sorry but you seriously failed on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tr1 Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 Cause it's not debate with you. You're abrasive, unwilling to consider other people's points, and in general are an *******. So any "debate" with you turns in to a pissing match because you're a douchebag. Theres no point in debating with you cause even when you're clearly wrong you are incapable of admitting it. You're a joke tr1, a complete ****ing joke. Wow! :rotflmao: But hey, I don't call people names... You lose. ---------- Post added May-25th-2011 at 10:36 PM ---------- Ware's role in the Cowboys scheme sounds exactly like Brian Orakpo's role in the Redskins scheme. That may be...but, what's your point? Orakpo hasn't been deemed HOF worthy... I love it when I point something out about the pukes, and the retort is about the Skins. My posts have NOTHING to do with the Skins. ---------- Post added May-25th-2011 at 10:38 PM ---------- Who cares what dallas fans think? They also think they've been relevent in the last fifteen years. It's great to laugh at, but in the end that's all it is. So true. You'll notice I rarely speak about the Eagles or Giants...they've actually won something of merit during the last ten years... ---------- Post added May-25th-2011 at 10:41 PM ---------- Never said I would be the one to, but I'm sure there would be a few people who would. All I'm saying is that tr1 can't be debated with, because he refuses to listen to what the other people are saying. Also his little "Where" schtick is quite played out now. Really? I'd have to say your threat of physical violence proves that you should avoid message boards. We're here to debate. Everyone has a point of view. What we bring here is some reality to this myth that the pukes are 'America's Team'...America's Team would have won something during the last 15 years... Please try harder. ---------- Post added May-25th-2011 at 10:51 PM ---------- Oh, and let me say something positive about Where...he's better than Spears. See...I can say nice things about puke players. ---------- Post added May-25th-2011 at 10:54 PM ---------- And the one quote you found on Rak...was a skins fan....... Sorry but you seriously failed on this one. That 'Skins fan' tends to post like a pukes fan... Oh, and once again your clock has been cleaned by a Skins' fan in our forum. Please, remove the star from your vespa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penasquito Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 If he's the third best linebacker, and linebackers are defenders, then he's at best the third best defender.QED: Ware is not the second best defender in the league, and the Puke hype machine rolls on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitman21ST Posted May 26, 2011 Author Share Posted May 26, 2011 And that is supposed to mean I'm wrong? There's no logical explanation for having Ware as the second best defender, yet only the third best linebacker. That would be like saying the Orioles may only be the third best team in the AL East, but they're the best team in baseball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Jones Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 And that is supposed to mean I'm wrong? There's no logical explanation for having Ware as the second best defender, yet only the third best linebacker. That would be like saying the Orioles may only be the third best team in the AL East, but they're the best team in baseball. It's because Ware plays a hybrid position, usually OLB but occasionally a DE in nickel situations (3 point stance), he's a very good LB, but that's not all he does as his pass-rush skills give him an extra dimension. Similar to Brady being the quarterback last year, but Vick may of been the best offensive player even though they both play the same position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enter Apotheosis Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 And that is supposed to mean I'm wrong? There's no logical explanation for having Ware as the second best defender, yet only the third best linebacker. That would be like saying the Orioles may only be the third best team in the AL East, but they're the best team in baseball. It means that you sound remarkably like this guy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsnshanny Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 You must have gotten your argument training from If he's the third best linebacker, and linebackers are defenders, then he's at best the third best defender.[/Quote] No. See Mr. Jones' post or read the actual links. It is possible for a player to play multiple/hybrid positions and thus be a better overall player than at any 1 position. The same holds true in other sports as well. Russell Westbrook may be a better guard than he is point guard... If you look at the espn articles, you will also see a great disparity in 'points' after Ware in the rankings, this is further evidence that Ware is consistently considered a top defender. Even further is the fact that it is a composite ranking, not just 1 guy. from the linebacker list "DeMarcus Ware and Cameron Wake might not even be linebackers if they played in Indianapolis, Tennessee or Minnesota." "Separating Ware, Willis and Harrison is like splitting hairs, because it really depends on what you want in a linebacker," --Ok this is how it is possible that Ware is not rated number 1 for LBs, but Ware is also the best of those 3 players at another possible position and thus moves up the overall list. Also the fact that Ware received 7/8 first place votes for pass rushing ability, clearly shows just how good he is. BUT "Beyond Ware, however, the debate was fierce"---This means that every other play except Ware there was actual debate about how good they were. Ware was EIGHTEEN points higher than number 2. Thats 23% higher (using Ware's score as a base) or 30% higher than number 2's score. QED: Ware is not the second best defender in the league, and the Puke hype machine rolls on. Im not going to say Ware is for sure the second best defender in the league, but you have been given multiple sources that all articulate the point that Ware is an extremely highly ranked defender in all aspects of his game. This includes grades from non "puke hype machine" sources. Yet without giving any counter sources you make your claim, while actually admitting you don't even watch Ware play all that often. This is not how an educated debate should work and thats the shame of this whole thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyRomoProBowl Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 That 'Skins fan' tends to post like a pukes fan... read TR1, READ....he said "Cowboys fan said"...........no matter how the "post'er" may post, Hitman said a Cowboys fan.....not a Skins fan that sounds like a Cowboys fan (in TR1's opinion).....besides....he sounds more like a post'er that tries to makes sense,. no matter the team he roots for. Oh, and once again your clock has been cleaned by a Skins' fan in our forum. this thread continues to deliver, THANKS!!!!! hahaha You and your "fanclub" took a beating here in your own home, hilarious!!!!! ---------- Post added May-26th-2011 at 05:24 AM ---------- Yet without giving any counter sources you make your claim, while actually admitting you don't even watch Ware play all that often. This is not how an educated debate should work and thats the shame of this whole thing. Such a true statement................... and there is no "educated debate" with the haters, they just refuse to see anything at all on the other side of their argument...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tr1 Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 Yet without giving any counter sources you make your claim, while actually admitting you don't even watch Ware play all that often. This is not how an educated debate should work and thats the shame of this whole thing. I have watched him in every game. His job is to 1) rush the passer, 2) rush the passer, 3) rush the passer, 4) defend the run and 5) try to cover somebody. He's not a bad athlete, but he's pretty one dimensional. ---------- Post added May-26th-2011 at 07:10 AM ---------- and there is no "educated debate" with the haters, they just refuse to see anything at all on the other side of their argument...... We're given a rating system by a pay-to-view site, and we're expected to take that as gospel? I've posted article after article citing that Where's dominance is because of Wade's 5-2 scheme, yet that continues to be ignored by the Where fanclub...because...well, because IT DOESN'T JIBE with puke fans' belief system. :rotflmao: Wade is basically saying that his system MADE Merriman and Where 'superstars'...and his system will do the same for Williams in Texas. Now, tell me who has reading comprehension problems. No one said Where is bad athlete...he's just benefited from a scheme meant to pump up his glam stats as long as the folks around him play well. Sheesh! ---------- Post added May-26th-2011 at 07:17 AM ---------- MMQB Mail: Switch to 3-4 defense is a good thing for Williams, Texans http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/peter_king/05/10/mail/index.html?sct=nfl_t11_a0 While the labor skirmish drones on, let's focus on one item in Monday's column that brought some email and Twitter chatter: the move of Mario Williams from defensive end in the Texans' former 4-3 defense to a rush outside linebacker in new defensive coordinator Wade Phillips' 3-4. My whole point Monday was that the move wasn't that revolutionary. If Phillips thinks Williams can drop 20 or so pounds and play the rush spot DeMarcus Ware played with the Cowboys to great success, Phillips deserves the benefit of the doubt. Many of you, including Ted D. of Katy, Texas, think I'm underrating Williams -- who has averaged 9.6 sacks a year over the past five seasons -- and he shouldn't have to move to a foreign position. Ted writes: "Williams has never played the position. He's been excellent for the Texans at defensive end. Stats don't tell the whole story. I'm just afraid he's not suited to play in space the way Phillips is going to ask him to do.'' Let's examine what the phrase "playing in space'' means. In some 3-4 schemes, the outside linebackers are asked to drop in coverage, but in reality they almost never do. If you watch Phillips' defense in Dallas (and, for that matter, in San Diego before then), the outside linebackers were pretty consistently lined up wide on the line of scrimmage, outside the defensive ends. There's this fear that Williams will be a lost sheep on the four or five snaps a game where (it is presumed, and I believe wrongly) he would have to drop and cover a tight end or back. But Phillips doesn't do that, and I'm sure he's not going to start now with Williams. I asked my friend Aaron Schatz of FootballOutsiders.com, a site that studies tape of every NFL game, what he thought of the move, and to work up some stats on Williams and Ware to see how much each pressured the passer in recent seasons. "To be honest,'' Schatz said, "I don't think Mario Williams as outside linebacker is that crazy. The strongside linebacker [in Phillips' defense] only rarely drops into coverage and the weakside linebacker almost never drops into coverage. Last year, our game charters had Ware in coverage on six passes. That's it. [Antwan] Applewhite, the weakside linebacker in San Diego, was in coverage on just nine. Williams makes more sense there than as a five-technique end.'' The five-technique end has run and rush responsibilities and lines up on the outside shoulder of the offensive tackle. According to the numbers crunched by FootballOutsiders.com, Ware got home more than Williams in the past three seasons, but both had good impact disrupting the quarterback. Ware had 47 sacks to Williams' 30, but they had an identical 120 hits and hurries of the passer. When the Texans were getting ready to draft Williams in 2006, I remember speaking to owner Bob McNair about choosing between Reggie Bush, Vince Young and Williams for the number one pick in the draft. "We've got to play Peyton Manning twice a year, and we've got to make sure we find a way to make it uncomfortable for him when he plays us,'' McNair said then. It takes more than one rusher to make it hard on Manning, to be sure, and the Texans absolutely must play better in the secondary; if I'm McNair, I'm telling Rick Smith he has carte blanche to go after accomplished cornerback Nnamdi Asomugha when the free-agent market opens, because a pass-rush without coverage is not going to be good enough. But I'm anxious to see Williams make more of an impact than he has. Moving him from hand-in-the-ground defensive end to rangy outside 'backer is not a revolution. It could make him more of a force buzzing around quarterbacks than he's been. Williams is excited about dropping down to 265 or 260 and having a bigger impact at rush linebacker. That's a big reason -- along with new draftees J.J. Watt and Brooks Reed -- for Texans fans to be excited about the new defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tweedr01 Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 read TR1, READ....he said "Cowboys fan said"...........no matter how the "post'er" may post, Hitman said a Cowboys fan.....not a Skins fan that sounds like a Cowboys fan (in TR1's opinion).....besides....he sounds more like a post'er that tries to makes sense,. no matter the team he roots for.this thread continues to deliver, THANKS!!!!! hahaha You and your "fanclub" took a beating here in your own home, hilarious!!!!! ---------- Post added May-26th-2011 at 05:24 AM ---------- Such a true statement................... and there is no "educated debate" with the haters, they just refuse to see anything at all on the other side of their argument...... lol, here is an example of how TRPB and his BFF argue: keep on spinning, it's only showing us what we already knew EDIT: i forgot to add in CAPITALIZED WORDS SO THAT TRPB WOULD ACTUALLY READ THIS TIME. seriously have you been hanging out with pre-teens or something? every argument you create is ended by a !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 A;SLKDJFAS FAASDJFAWHFAH HAHAHAHAHA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tr1 Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/15053643/playoffs-sure-to-follow-with-phillips-leading-texans-d That's why I think it works. Tell me, what does Williams do best? Rush the passer. What will he do as the weak-side linebacker? Rush the passer, and you're going to have to trust Phillips on this one. He's the guy who put DeMarcus Ware, Shaun Phillips, Shawne Merriman and Bryce Paup in the same positions, and they wound up at or near the top of the league in sacks."He's our best pass rusher," Phillips said of Williams, "so let's put him in a position where he can rush the passer the most and be most successful. And that's what we're going to do. "It's the same thing DeMarcus Ware did. He was a defensive end in college, and Brooks Reed was a defensive end. You get a feel for whether they can play outside backer, and this guy is as athletic as anybody. I don't have any reason to believe he can't rush the passer almost every down from the open side all the time. "And that's the key thing. He's going to be the open-ended side all the time. That gives him a chance on pass plays to come bearing down on them. There was a reason he was a No. 1 pick [in 2006], and it's athletic ability. The guy is big, fast, strong and athletic. And except when he's been hurt, he's been pretty productive rushing the passer. He was our best pass rusher, and we knew that going in. So let's put him the spot where he can be the most successful." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan2k Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 haha you guys thinking i am a cowboys fan. ask any of the people who actually are seen at the ES tailgates lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tr1 Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 haha you guys thinking i am a cowboys fan. ask any of the people who actually are seen at the ES tailgates lol We can only judge you by how you post. I think we've been down this road with you before... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan2k Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 We can only judge you by how you post.I think we've been down this road with you before... most of the time i do it just to get you people pissed off about certain topics lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyRomoProBowl Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 TR1...you embarrass yourself.....22 pages later and yet you are still sticking to your first point, in which we (those that have whooped your tail and your fan club's tail for the entire thread......) have already demolished and used some of our own, links, points, etc....to prove it. ware is a pash rushing specialist is all you can say.....duh1 Yes he is and he is also one of the best all around LB's in the NFL.......is one of the best against the run and plays "well" against the pass when asked to do so....and if you have watched every game ware has played, then you would be an idiot not to admit that he is battling tackles all the time, and not just running free (as you seem to think he is) He also plays stromng and weak siode, which i pointed out in one single video, and showed in that same video that he does drop into coverage....and if you knoew anything at all about dropping into zones, you would see that he does a good jobn at that as well! Keep posting the same article all the while your fan club members post silly...immature pictures they get on the internet....... and post statements that have nothing to do with the topic . And while they bash me and the others on our style of debating......yet, the fact of the matter is, I have absolutely thumped you and your friends as well as a few skins fans.....that might i add, are as loyal to the skins as you are if not MORE, yet because they have enough sense to see Ware for what he is you and others have to question his fan alliance???? They should question yours, considering you claim to be a skins fan yet you watch and/or TAPE every Dallas Cowboys game for 5 years??? Ware is a OLB in a 3-4 and is asked to rush the passer over 90% of the time...same as any other OLB in a 3-4...... Ware is as good or better then any or every other OLB in a 3-4 at all aspects of that position, including in pass coverage. Ware is an extremely gifted athlete that would be just as dominant in any other scheme he was in including a 4-3 playing DE..... he may not be able to play at the Will or Sam or Mike in a 4-3, nor can he play ILB in a 3-4.......but in the position he plays he is the best in the game, and overall he is one of the best def players in the game, and soon you will see also one of the top 15-20 overall in the game (voted on by his peers!) You.......have.....been.......destroyed, from jump street, and it should be embarrassing to you that you are still hanging on with your finger nails......yet, its not. and the only reason that is so, and i just happen to agree with it.....is the fact that this is indeed a skins fan message board!. P.E.R,I.O,D take what you are serving to anywhere else.....anywhere, neutral site, Cowboys site, ravens site, etc.....and you would be laughed at. More then you are here! ---------- Post added May-26th-2011 at 07:45 AM ---------- We can only judge you by how you post.I think we've been down this road with you before... as we do you........and Quite frankly, outside of the small fan club you have, you are laughed at pretty hard. But yes i know...this is a skins board and i am not welcome and you will always be right no matter what and you are the king of the ATN......Have a great day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 as we do you........and Quite frankly, outside of the small fan club you have, you are laughed at pretty hard. But yes i know...this is a skins board and i am not welcome and you will always be right no matter what and you are the king of the ATN......Have a great day! Of your whole post, this was the most accurate part. It's like Dos Equis... When we're debating, we don't always agree with tr1... But when we do (debate)... We prefer Redskin fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tweedr01 Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 lol @ TRPB, just because you keep on saying it doesn't make it true, you have been THOROUGHLY owned throughout this thread. don't be mad because you change the argument over and over and over and get called out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbs Hog Heaven Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 lol @ TRPB, just because you keep on saying it doesn't make it true, you have been THOROUGHLY owned throughout this thread. don't be mad because you change the argument over and over and over and get called out. That I'll never get. We have to be here if we want to discuss our passion. It's OUR board. If your not one of us, when your on a loser, you DON'T have to be here. Keep stum and let it die, or go back to your own boards for a bit. The term masochist comes to mind. But then why else would you follow THEM to start with? Hail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tweedr01 Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 That I'll never get. We have to be here if we want to discuss our passion. It's OUR board. If your not one of us, when your on a loser, you DON'T have to be here. Keep stum and let it die, or go back to your own boards for a bit. The term masochist comes to mind. But then why else would you follow THEM to start with? Hail. just want to check with you before i reply to the post (please do not take as sarcasm) but what are we talking about here? i noticed you replied to my post, but mine was just to laugh at TRPB being...well TRPB, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penasquito Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 Now, tell me who has reading comprehension problems. Still you, buddy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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