tr1 might have been right all along about DeMarcus Ware...

[ABQCOWBOY]

I believe I've seen every snap he's had in his career, and I continue to contend that he is a product of scheme AND good play of those beside him.

Wade has so much as said so. Good athlete. Stands out because of scheme...that rarely puts him in coverage or run support.

Just the facts.

The scheme is what it is. The way I look at this, a good coach will try to use a scheme to take full advantage of his players skills. Ware is obviously one of the best pass rushers in the NFL. It only makes sense to try and get him involved in situations where his skills will make a difference. However, I think it's inaccurate to say that he is weak against the run. The link that was just posted earlier in this thread would seem to support that. I mean, if you have a guy who can do it all, and Ware can do it all, it probably makes more sense to use him in the most effective way possible. Ware is a complete OLB. He may not be used to cover nearly as much as he is used to rush the passer but that doesn't mean that he is incapable of covering. It means that his skills as a pass rusher are much more valuable to the Cowboys.

[ouvan59]

The link that was just posted earlier in this thread would seem to support that..

Actually the way I read the link it says that he doesn't pursue very well. What that link told me was that he either runs into the ball carrier or saves his energy for when the other team does pass. But you won't catch him making a downfield tackle to save someone else's bacon.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Actually the way I read the link it says that he doesn't pursue very well. What that link told me was that he either runs into the ball carrier or saves his energy for when the other team does pass. But you won't catch him making a downfield tackle to save someone else's bacon.

I would be interested in understanding how you come to that conclusion. When I read that article, I understood it to say that the stat does penalize a player for making a tackle after a long run because of the way it tracks yards after contact. However, I did not get the idea that it suggested that Ware does not pursue. I mean, I suppose you could make that statement but the reason for it would be because Ware makes tackles and gives up very little additional yardage after contact. I mean, this is what you would like to see out of all of your players, not just your LBs. I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing. Now this is just my opinion and I am happy to discuss this more. I mean, I have no problem gaining more knowledge. I love football and I love talking football. I'm not so big into the BS, I like the actual Football discussion more. I don't feel as if I have an axe to grind where Ware is concerned. I see him as a great football player. Not the best I've ever seen but certainly among the very best that is in the league today. That's just my opinion.

[ouvan59]

I would be interested in understanding how you come to that conclusion. When I read that article, I understood it to say that the stat does penalize a player for making a tackle after a long run because of the way it tracks yards after contact. However, I did not get the idea that it suggested that Ware does not pursue. I mean, I suppose you could make that statement but the reason for it would be because Ware makes tackles and gives up very little additional yardage after contact. I mean, this is what you would like to see out of all of your players, not just your LBs. I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing. Now this is just my opinion and I am happy to discuss this more. I mean, I have no problem gaining more knowledge. I love football and I love talking football. I'm not so big into the BS, I like the actual Football discussion more. I don't feel as if I have an axe to grind where Ware is concerned. I see him as a great football player. Not the best I've ever seen but certainly among the very best that is in the league today. That's just my opinion.

What I'm saying is that it is a crap stat. It can be interpreted many ways. I'm guessing Albert Haynesworth's metrics would have looked really good in the stat. My point was to refute your statement that the link supports anything other than when Ware makes a stop it is typically near the line of scrimmage.

[ABQCOWBOY]

What I'm saying is that it is a crap stat. It can be interpreted many ways. I'm guessing Albert Haynesworth's metrics would have looked really good in the stat. My point was to refute your statement that the link supports anything other than when Ware makes a stop it is typically near the line of scrimmage.

Not only near the line of scrimmage but with very little yards after contact. That suggests that he is a good tackler and it would also lead you to the conclusion that he also fights through blocks to make tackles well. It is logical to assume that he is not tackling ball carriers in open space and unblocked at all times. His ratio of 91% suggests that he is good in these areas and that he is a sure tackler. I don't think it says that he is the best run support LB in the NFL or anything like that. This stat does not tell the whole story but I do think that you can get some information from this study that does support certain things. Ware is a good tackler and he is very good at bringing down the Ball Carrier at the point of contact.

I don't think that it proves that he is the best OLB in the league against the run. I would agree with you on that if that is the point you are trying to make. If the point you are trying to make is that the Stat has no merit, then I probably would not agree.

[ouvan59]

Not only near the line of scrimmage but with very little yards after contact. That suggests that he is a good tackler and it would also lead you to the conclusion that he also fights through blocks to make tackles well. It is logical to assume that he is not tackling ball carriers in open space and unblocked at all times. His ratio of 91% suggests that he is good in these areas and that he is a sure tackler. I don't think it says that he is the best run support LB in the NFL or anything like that. This stat does not tell the whole story but I do think that you can get some information from this study that does support certain things. Ware is a good tackler and he is very good at bringing down the Ball Carrier at the point of contact.

I don't think that it proves that he is the best OLB in the league against the run. I would agree with you on that if that is the point you are trying to make. If the point you are trying to make is that the Stat has no merit, then I probably would not agree.

I think a more telling stat is that he is in on so few runs. But that underscores my point about this being a crap stat. You say it shows that he fights through blocks and I think it says the opposite. He's an all or nothing guy. What it tells me is that he is rushing the passer and sometimes the runner gets in the way. And by the way, it doesn't take into account missed tackles so if he misses a tackle it says nothing about what kind of tackler he is. It just shows you the area of the field that he plays.

A better way to determine how good a player is against the run is show the number of runs to his side of the field, the number of tackles he has and the average gain on the runs to his side of the field.

And again, my point isn't that Ware is or isn't good against the run. It's that this stat is crap.

[TonyRomoProBowl]

I think a more telling stat is that he is in on so few runs. But that underscores my point about this being a crap stat. You say it shows that he fights through blocks and I think it says the opposite. He's an all or nothing guy. What it tells me is that he is rushing the passer and sometimes the runner gets in the way.

Can I assume this was in complete sarcasm and/or is a joke? although it comes fairly close to one of TR1's brilliant quotes...when he said, Ware has so many TFL's because he is always rushing the passer and is in the backfield all the time......

both his response a year ago and yours now, have to be jokes.....or at least said tongue and cheek.

And by the way, it doesn't take into account missed tackles so if he misses a tackle it says nothing about what kind of tackler he is. It just shows you the area of the field that he plays.

A better way to determine how good a player is against the run is show the number of runs to his side of the field, the number of tackles he has and the average gain on the runs to his side of the field.

And again, my point isn't that Ware is or isn't good against the run. It's that this stat is crap.

Too funny....lets forget about the actual fact that is up for debate and get caught up between arguing a stupid stat line......No one, and i mean NO ONE can say with a straight face and in total honesty with themselves.........if they have indeed watched Ware play......that he cannot play great ball against the run.......Until now, that wasnt even up for debate. The main crux of it all has always remained about his play VS the pass and in coverage.

[Tweedr01]

Would have been a lot easier if you had just said, "OK, I got nothing."

It would have been more honest at least

Have you looked at the criteria for that stat? It's plays that that player was involved in the play-by-play and where they stopped the runner. So if Ware goes all out pass rush and the guy busts a big play it doesn't count against him. So a LB from the other side runs down a player on the far sideline 15 yards downfield he is penalized. In fact here is their explanation:

This is an asshat stat.

what?! you mean this guy didn't even look at the criteria of stats he is trying to use to prove his agenda? lol, what comedic gold, and very good find ouvan!

[ouvan59]

Can I assume this was in complete sarcasm and/or is a joke? although it comes fairly close to one of TR1's brilliant quotes...when he said, Ware has so many TFL's because he is always rushing the passer and is in the backfield all the time......

both his response a year ago and yours now, have to be jokes.....or at least said tongue and cheek.

Too funny....lets forget about the actual fact that is up for debate and get caught up between arguing a stupid stat line......No one, and i mean NO ONE can say with a straight face and in total honesty with themselves.........if they have indeed watched Ware play......that he cannot play great ball against the run.......Until now, that wasnt even up for debate. The main crux of it all has always remained about his play VS the pass and in coverage.

You really have lost your objectivity. Do you really not see how this stat is ****ing useless in determining who is good against the run? Do you realize it doesn't take into account plays where a man is completely taken out of a play because he was blocked. Do you realize it doesn't take into account when a player whiffs on a tackle. It only takes into account actual tackles made, which Ware has a very low total I might add compared to the other players on the list. He makes some very big plays on occasion but he also over commits quite a bit and is left out of position. The Cowboys were not a good team against the run last year. Teams ran on them with relative ease.

And sorry but yes his ability to play the run is up to debate. You and your little circle of friends may think it's not up for debate but it is. What's not up for debate is that he's a tremendous pass rusher. But now in your completely deluded homeristic view says that he is All-World against the run and great in coverage. I'll put it in terms you seem to understand. HE'S NOT. HE GOT TOASTED BY CHRIS COOLEY REGULARLY UNTIL THE COWBOYS DECIDED THAT HE WOULDN'T COVER HIM ANYMORE. BUT IN YOUR WORLD HE IS GREAT IN COVERAGE. HE MAKES ALMOST NO TACKLES AGAINST THE RUN BUT IN YOUR WORLD THAT MEANS HE'S GREAT AGAINST THE RUN.

I watch Ware play a lot. He's a very good player but not nearly as flawless as you seem to think he is. He never dominates games against good teams. He, just like Romo sits to pee, feasts on the lesser lights but then comes up very small when it matters. He had 5 sacks against playoff teams last year and three of those came in the last game of the year against a Philly team that rested their entire team. So essentially he had 2 sacks against real teams last year .

---------- Post added June-3rd-2011 at 03:16 PM ----------

It would have been more honest at least

what?! you mean this guy didn't even look at the criteria of stats he is trying to use to prove his agenda? lol, what comedic gold, and very good find ouvan!

Their defense of him is priceless. What I think is particularly funny is watching a guy like TRPB, who used to be a fairly level headed Poke poster, come unraveled piece by piece. He loves him some Romo sits to pee but obviously Ware is his deity and God forbid anybody say anything to suggest he isn't the next coming.

[ABQCOWBOY]

I think a more telling stat is that he is in on so few runs. But that underscores my point about this being a crap stat. You say it shows that he fights through blocks and I think it says the opposite. He's an all or nothing guy. What it tells me is that he is rushing the passer and sometimes the runner gets in the way. And by the way, it doesn't take into account missed tackles so if he misses a tackle it says nothing about what kind of tackler he is. It just shows you the area of the field that he plays.

A better way to determine how good a player is against the run is show the number of runs to his side of the field, the number of tackles he has and the average gain on the runs to his side of the field.

And again, my point isn't that Ware is or isn't good against the run. It's that this stat is crap.

If you have a problem with the stat, that's fine. I don't think it's crap but that's alright. I agree, that's really not the issue.

in 2010, his production increased in all areas over his 2009 stats. All of this while playing 150 less snaps. I just think that to say he can't play the run well is not accurate. However, you are entitled to your own opinion.

[Mr. Jones]

Through this thread the facts are as follows: Ware is one of the very best pass rusher in the NFL, he made more tackles than the rest of the top pass rushers, and the tackles he made were more likely to be behind the line of scrimmage or before the runner could get significant yardage than anyone else. All this when everyone knew exactly what he was going to be doing almost every play and still were unable to stop him. From this it is easy to conclude that he is an outright dominant player, one of the best defensive players in the NFL and has been for a few years now.

[tr1]

You really have lost your objectivity. Do you really not see how this stat is ****ing useless in determining who is good against the run? Do you realize it doesn't take into account plays where a man is completely taken out of a play because he was blocked. Do you realize it doesn't take into account when a player whiffs on a tackle. It only takes into account actual tackles made, which Ware has a very low total I might add compared to the other players on the list. He makes some very big plays on occasion but he also over commits quite a bit and is left out of position. The Cowboys were not a good team against the run last year. Teams ran on them with relative ease.

And sorry but yes his ability to play the run is up to debate. You and your little circle of friends may think it's not up for debate but it is. What's not up for debate is that he's a tremendous pass rusher. But now in your completely deluded homeristic view says that he is All-World against the run and great in coverage. I'll put it in terms you seem to understand. HE'S NOT. HE GOT TOASTED BY CHRIS COOLEY REGULARLY UNTIL THE COWBOYS DECIDED THAT HE WOULDN'T COVER HIM ANYMORE. BUT IN YOUR WORLD HE IS GREAT IN COVERAGE. HE MAKES ALMOST NO TACKLES AGAINST THE RUN BUT IN YOUR WORLD THAT MEANS HE'S GREAT AGAINST THE RUN.

I watch Ware play a lot. He's a very good player but not nearly as flawless as you seem to think he is. He never dominates games against good teams. He, just like Romo sits to pee, feasts on the lesser lights but then comes up very small when it matters. He had 5 sacks against playoff teams last year and three of those came in the last game of the year against a Philly team that rested their entire team. So essentially he had 2 sacks against real teams last year .

---------- Post added June-3rd-2011 at 03:16 PM ----------

Their defense of him is priceless. What I think is particularly funny is watching a guy like TRPB, who used to be a fairly level headed Poke poster, come unraveled piece by piece. He loves him some Romo sits to pee but obviously Ware is his deity and God forbid anybody say anything to suggest he isn't the next coming.

The quality of puke posters in the ATN has dropped off. There are a few guys on their side who have come to realize that the pukes' have been as pathetic or worse than the Skins in the last dozen or so years. Those fellas get it.

The others are blind homers who are so insecure about their team and its players that they visit a Skins board to try and puff them up.

Imagine Bear fans going to GB's board and puffing up Urlacher.

[skinsnshanny]

You really have lost your objectivity. Do you really not see how this stat is ****ing useless in determining who is good against the run? Do you realize it doesn't take into account plays where a man is completely taken out of a play because he was blocked. Do you realize it doesn't take into account when a player whiffs on a tackle. It only takes into account actual tackles made, which Ware has a very low total I might add compared to the other players on the list. He makes some very big plays on occasion but he also over commits quite a bit and is left out of position. The Cowboys were not a good team against the run last year. Teams ran on them with relative ease.

And sorry but yes his ability to play the run is up to debate. You and your little circle of friends may think it's not up for debate but it is. What's not up for debate is that he's a tremendous pass rusher. But now in your completely deluded homeristic view says that he is All-World against the run and great in coverage. I'll put it in terms you seem to understand. HE'S NOT. HE GOT TOASTED BY CHRIS COOLEY REGULARLY UNTIL THE COWBOYS DECIDED THAT HE WOULDN'T COVER HIM ANYMORE. BUT IN YOUR WORLD HE IS GREAT IN COVERAGE. HE MAKES ALMOST NO TACKLES AGAINST THE RUN BUT IN YOUR WORLD THAT MEANS HE'S GREAT AGAINST THE RUN.

I watch Ware play a lot. He's a very good player but not nearly as flawless as you seem to think he is. He never dominates games against good teams. He, just like Romo sits to pee, feasts on the lesser lights but then comes up very small when it matters. He had 5 sacks against playoff teams last year and three of those came in the last game of the year against a Philly team that rested their entire team. So essentially he had 2 sacks against real teams last year .

---------- Post added June-3rd-2011 at 03:16 PM ----------

Their defense of him is priceless. What I think is particularly funny is watching a guy like TRPB, who used to be a fairly level headed Poke poster, come unraveled piece by piece. He loves him some Romo sits to pee but obviously Ware is his deity and God forbid anybody say anything to suggest he isn't the next coming.

You do realize that profootballfocus, a site that does exactly what you said, watches every play, sees how many tackles are wiffed on, etc. Has rated Ware (at one point) the top OLB against the run in the entire nfl? Keep in mind this isnt based on stats, its based on grades, from watching each and every play of every player.

[tr1]

You do realize that profootballfocus, a site that does exactly what you said, watches every play, sees how many tackles are wiffed on, etc. Has rated Ware (at one point) the top OLB against the run in the entire nfl? Keep in mind this isnt based on stats, its based on grades, from watching each and every play of every player.

Okay, can you tell us how many rushing attempts there were to Where's side during last season?

Specifically, how many running plays were directed towards the left tackle of the offense?

[skinsnshanny]

Okay, can you tell us how many rushing attempts there were to Where's side during last season?

Specifically, how many running plays were directed towards the left tackle of the offense?

You watch every puke game. Why are you asking.

[Hitman21ST]

You watch every puke game. Why are you asking.

Phew, that was close. Good dodge.

[tr1]

You watch every puke game. Why are you asking.

Do you think I don't know the answer?

Obviously, you've got nothin'.

[TonyRomoProBowl]

Imagine Bear fans going to GB's board and puffing up Urlacher.

actually...the way I see it.....

Imagine a GB fan message board, with a topic dedicated to a GB fan and his "opinion" on Urlacher, stating that he is a average player, just benefiting for the def scheme in which he plays......

Truth of the matter....Dallas fans do not need to post about the Cowboys here, you do it enough.......

[ABQCOWBOY]

The approach being discussed here, how many times are opposing teams running at Ware or to the left side, is really not relevant IMO. You can easily say that the defensive scheme run by any given team dictates where the run will go or you can easily say that teams will run away from great players. Both of these statements are true. The question you need to ask is, when the ball is run towards Ware, how many times is he making the play?

[Hitman21ST]

The approach being discussed here, how many times are opposing teams running at Ware or to the left side, is really not relevant IMO. You can easily say that the defensive scheme run by any given team dictates where the run will go or you can easily say that teams will run away from great players. Both of these statements are true. The question you need to ask is, when the ball is run towards Ware, how many times is he making the play?

Which that stat given doesn't answer. It grades him for tackles made, and doesn't count the times he whiffs, gets juked, or is out of position.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Which that stat given doesn't answer. It grades him for tackles made, and doesn't count the times he whiffs, gets juked, or is out of position.

I never said that stat answered that question. I said that what should be graded was how many times Ware was run at and how many times he made the play.

[Hitman21ST]

I never said that stat answered that question. I said that what should be graded was how many times Ware was run at and how many times he made the play.

Gotcha. I misunderstood.

[Mr. Jones]

Which that stat given doesn't answer. It grades him for tackles made, and doesn't count the times he whiffs, gets juked, or is out of position.

If you watch him play you find that really doesn't happen very often, he's a very sure tackler and grades out extremely well in run support. No one has presented any data that even suggests he's bad against the run, if there is any I would really like to see it.

[TonyRomoProBowl]

Which that stat given doesn't answer. It grades him for tackles made, and doesn't count the times he whiffs, gets juked, or is out of position.

in which happens to Ware all the time. I don't know why we are even having this discussion....the man just cant play ball......if not for his uncanny ability to get to the QB (while unblocked) he would not even be in the league........How he made it this long....is beyond me......

Anyway.....

The proof is in the play of Demarcus Ware, period. Its been said here, that this scheme he is in, allows for him to get to the QB....basically unchallenged, then why is it, on every freaking highlight reel of him, there is nothing but D.Ware clips fighting off a blocks of a tackle or a double team.....VERY FEW...one in particular from 2006 (?) when he got a free run at P. Manning.....but mostly in the game tapes (in this case youtube highlights) What you see is Ware beating Tackles for sacks, and his plays VS the run are in the clips as well.....

I even posted one clip VS the Giants that showed him in the flat, dropping into his zone coverage......just after a play that showed him lined up as a DE with his hand in the dirt, beating the Tackle from the Giants fir a sack........its just a silly argument, believe me......no one really thinks that Ware is nothing more then a pass rushing specialist that is flying off the edge untouched into QB's......What has been brought up and is a legit and debatable debate....hahaha" debatable debate".........anyway.......is whether or not, Ware is one of the best all around LB's in the league and if he could even be considered a "true LB".

The way I see it...thats a legit question and one that I would have to say...."in my opinion" Ware is not your conventional LB, and certainly not one of the best "LB's" in the NFL....just because if what I feel is a LB. I am more of a 4-3 guy, its what I like and its what I prefer........and LB's in that system, and playing in that role Mike, Sam, Will backers.......Demarcus Ware is just not one of those......

So, with that said, he would then be considered more of a DE, and i would pout him at a top 1-6 DE's in the NFL...if not #1. Just looking at the other DE's and the other "Ware" type players.......you know those Hybrid OLB's........that rush the passer and play in the base 34 defenses.......(oh...and lets please all come to see that almost EVERY NFL defense now plays in a hybrid type defense, using both "fronts".....there are very few teams left.....if any....that just play a Straight base 43 without switching to a 34 at some point,........and trust me, even that is just a matter of verbiage and wording......) And you can call it a 5-2 to make yourself feel much smarter then anyone or everyone else (not you specifically Hitman....just you in general...... Heck, call it a 6-1 if you want to.....or a 2-5........or a 1-6.......LMAO.....call it whatever you want.......I could care not what ya call it.......I know what it is. I don't need a lesson in Football to know that Ware is a great player in today's game.....

the truth will always lie between the two points.....what a Skins fan will say.....and what a Dallas fan will say.......

okay...i know i know.....I am boring, i am rambling on...I am a Puke fan......no matter what I say,m the truth is...this is a Skins fan message board and Ware is what we say he is........Save it, I already know the routine. LOL

[tr1]

The approach being discussed here, how many times are opposing teams running at Ware or to the left side, is really not relevant IMO.

Well, no...of course not! :rotflmao: