penasquito Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Actually, 56 tackles is a high number for OLB. James Harrison is the only player in the top 20 for sacks who had more, so you'd find if you'd bothered to check your facts you're wrong.http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=SACKS&conference=null&season=2010&seasonType=REGAlso you say he only does well when players around him play very very well, so my question is who was that this last year in Dallas? Certainly wasn't Ratliff or anyone else on the D-line. Everyone knew Ware was coming, no one else was a real threat, and they were still unable to keep him from disrupting plays in the backfield both in the running and passing game. You may have not noticed, but your defense sucked last year. It's why fatty got fired.You fellas are pretty pathetic when you try to defend that defense...or ANYONE on it. Never heard of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tr1 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 For those of you who are still thinking Where is super special, I'd ask that you really compare him to someone special: James Harrison. Defensive Player of the Year. Has more tackles. Has more INT's. More Forced Fumbled. More Fumble Recoveries. More Knockouts. Anchors a better a defense, and is a better overall player than Ware is. Not to mention he also has 2 Superbowl rings. Just in case you were wondering, here's the stats to back that up: Last 4 Seasons: Ware: 291 Tackles - 60.5 Sacks - 17 FFs - 0 SFTYs - 0 INTs - 13 PDefs - 0 DMVP Harrison: 378 Tackles - 45 Sacks - 25 FF - 1 SFTY - 4 INTs - 13 PDefs - 1 DMVP http://forum.ea.com/eaforum/posts/list/30/4649409.page In summary, the pukes with Where on their team have recorded one playoff win. He rarely drops back into coverage, and to really be considered a dominant player he should have almost 25% more tackles. And, since he's in the backfield so often, he should have more forced fumbles than he has now. You might also consider that he's played in probably the weakest conference during the last three years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Jones Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 For those of you who are still thinking Where is super special, I'd ask that you really compare him to someone special:In summary, the pukes with Where on their team have recorded one playoff win. He rarely drops back into coverage, and to really be considered a dominant player he should have almost 25% more tackles. And, since he's in the backfield so often, he should have more forced fumbles than he has now. You might also consider that he's played in probably the weakest conference during the last three years. Harrison plays on a better defense, no argument there, it also means offenses are less able to focus on him. Also if you watch Steelers games he picks up a lot of assisted tackles hitting players who're already wrapped up and going down but his solo tackles aren't much higher. It's part of what has garnered him an NFL leading number of fines the past few years. As for his DPOY award Ware was robbed that year, he had 20 sacks, and almost 20 more QB pressures than anyone else in the NFL. Unfortunately for him the rest of the defense stopped showing up in December and the entire offense turned into the TO show, who wasn't good enough to carry an entire team. I'd still take Ware as he's 5 years younger, and if you look at their career stats you'll find Ware to be the more productive player Harrison: 359 solo tackles, 18 passes defended, 49 sacks, 25 forced fumbles (8 seasons) Ware: 334 solo tackles, 19 passes defended, 80 (!!!) sacks, 25 forced fumbles (6 seasons) Ware doesn't accumulate the fines, penalties, or cheap shots Harrison does. Since the NFL started keeping sacks as an official stat only a few players have accumulated sacks faster to start their careers than Ware's 80 in 96 games, and two of them are DE's who rushed the passer even more often than Ware. Lawrence Taylor with 89 sacks in 91 games (ignoring his rookie year since it was before sacks were tracked), Reggie White with 95 sacks in 96 games, and Bruce Smith with 98 sacks in 93 games. A few more years at his production levels and Ware will be looking at the HOF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsnshanny Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 For those of you who are still thinking Where is super special, I'd ask that you really compare him to someone special:In summary, the pukes with Where on their team have recorded one playoff win. He rarely drops back into coverage, and to really be considered a dominant player he should have almost 25% more tackles. And, since he's in the backfield so often, he should have more forced fumbles than he has now. You might also consider that he's played in probably the weakest conference during the last three years. Couple of things here. EDIT: lets start off by saying that your tackle number includes assists. Solo/individual tackles is a better stat to start with, or at least show both. 1. Harrison is a straight beast, so comparing Ware to Harrison and actually showing how similar the numbers are only strengthens the argument that Ware is really good. 2. Harrison plays on the better defense and the better team. The Steelers defense is probably stronger at almost every single position than the cowboys. Isnt one of your arguments against Ware that he only does well when other players on his defense play well. ---A comparison to Harrison only does harm to that argument. Harrison plays with so much talent that offenses cannot focus solely on him. Im not even going to name the talent, because I hope you know them. 3. This thread is about Ware not about the Steelers superbowl rings. What does Big Ben to Holmes have anything to do with Ware? 4. Why pick the 4 year span? There is no reason to be selective like that, especially considering Ware is the younger player. There is really no sense at all in just selecting the last 4 years. Ware started his career in 2005, Harrison "started" his career in 2004. Yes he didnt become the beast he is until 2007, but he had played basically 3 full seasons prior. These seasons count. The same can be said for Ware, that he wasn't the player he is today right out of the gates, but development time is part of your career. 5. Why such selective stats? Where is pressures? or a % stat. Such as % of pressures per pass rush or % of sacks per, etc. After all the advance discussion in this thread, you want to go back to simplest stats not showing efficiency at all. But thats not to say Harrison wont rank high, he will, he is a beast.\ 6. Why does the tackle number have to be high to be really considered dominate. Why not say Harrison needs to really increase his sack total by 25% to be even considered dominate (or maybe even decent if Ware is that bad.) Think of it this way, in your 4 year time period, Harrison has 15 less sacks and NO MORE pass deflections than Ware, who you have consistenly told us is what an average player? So how can a dominate one by Harrison trail such an average player in Ware in such a crucial stat? So lets start by first getting rid of the selective 4 year box you decided to pluck. I start in 2005, the year Ware entered the league. Sacks Ware: 80 sacks Harrison: 48 sacks ----->see what happened here, you left about 20 of Ware's sacks off the board to make your numbers look different. When you take the time both players were in the league and played in every game Ware has almost DOUBLE the sacks of Harrison. Lets keep going tackles Ware: 420 total, 334 solo Harrison: 443 total, 323 solo. ------>WOA!! What do we have here. Ware actually has 11 MORE solo tackles and only 23 less total tackles. In other words, over the 5 years they both were in the league and played in every game (aside from injuries) they have almost the EXACT same tackle numbers! Pass Defenses Ware: 19 Harrison: 16 --> essentially the same, but edge goes to Ware Turnovers Ware: 3 TDs (defensive scores),25 FF, 1 INT, 4FR Harrison: 0 TDs (regular season), 25 FF, 5 Ints, 8 FR --->Ints to harrison, FR to Harrison, but TDs to Ware by a large margin...interesting you didnt include defensive scores. And since you included DMVP, might as well include some other awards: Ware: 3 First Team All Pro, 5 Probowls Harrison: 2 First Team All Pro, 4 Probowls. So there we have it, just based on the type of stats you gave, there is nothing to support your claims. Ware actually has more solo tackles and in total tackles we are talking about under 5 assisted tackles per year. Thats not 25%. Oh yea Ware is 5 years younger. Harrison is a straight beast, you said it and I agree. Ware and Harrison have essentially the exact same numbers (on the type of stats you gave). EXCEPT ware has almost DOUBLE the amount of Sacks. ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolbeans Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 http://cowboysblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2011/06/cowboys-demarcus-ware-rated-th.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABQCOWBOY Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 You need to read what fatty said. Where is a product of the 5-2...if you have a problem with that statement, take it up with fatty. He can be found in Houston. ---------- Post added June-17th-2011 at 08:00 PM ---------- I don't know who fatty is. I assume you are talking about Phillips? If so, that's fine. I know what is defense is about. I painfully watched for two season. I mean, it is what it is. Never the less, what I said earlier is still true. It's really not even a point of contention so much as just a statement of fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Jones Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 http://blogs.nfl.com/2011/06/21/cover-two-podcast-nfc-east-chatter-with-cooley-ware/ 16:30 mark Cooley talks about Ware. Higher praise than anyone here is giving him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 http://blogs.nfl.com/2011/06/21/cover-two-podcast-nfc-east-chatter-with-cooley-ware/16:30 mark Cooley talks about Ware. Higher praise than anyone here is giving him. Please don't make us link to all the articles that quote Redskins players who praised the hell out of Taylor Jacobs lol ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyRomoProBowl Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 Please don't make us link to all the articles that quote Redskins players who praised the hell out of Taylor Jacobs lol ... wait, your comparing praise to one of their own teammates to the praise of a competitor....???? Face it, the praise of Cooley to Ware is real, period. You can discount it all you want, but that will not and does not change the facts..... Silly comparison really Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
royallypwned Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 Care to respond to where Ware will be voted by the players in the top 100? I'll take a stab at it... #13 posted on May 16...I was close. #12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tr1 Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 You need only skip to 5:11 and listen to Marshall Faulk...he makes plenty of sense - especially when he points out that the fellas who wear the star on their helmet tend to be delusional. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WU7FddKX_pg&feature=player_embedded Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyRomoProBowl Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 You need only skip to 5:11 and listen to Marshall Faulk...he makes plenty of sense - especially when he points out that the fellas who wear the star on their helmet tend to be delusional.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WU7FddKX_pg&feature=player_embedded hahahaha. He made absolutely NO SENSE, and was laughed at almost the entire show, that man is a ridiculous fool and really made himself look even worse, which I dint know would be possible. HAHA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penasquito Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 Marshall is basically saying he'd take Freeney ahead of Ware, based on what the Colts D was able to do last year (get to the playoffs despite a rash of injuries) vs. what the Cowboys did on D (be one of the worst in the league). Now, if we were having an argument over whether Ware is a better pass rusher than Freeney, Allen, Peppers, Harrison and Matthews, that would be relevant. Since we're instead having an argument over whether or not Ware only has gaudy numbers because of the 5-2, or because someone else on the defense is really good, or would disappear if he played in another scheme, then I don't see how Faulk's argument helps your case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tr1 Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 hahahaha. He made absolutely NO SENSE, and was laughed at almost the entire show, that man is a ridiculous fool and really made himself look even worse, which I dint know would be possible. HAHA! Faulk played against both players...and, on national TV basically said what I've been saying all along...the puke players and their fans live in a fantasy world. ---------- Post added June-27th-2011 at 07:00 PM ---------- Marshall is basically saying he'd take Freeney ahead of Ware, based on what the Colts D was able to do last year (get to the playoffs despite a rash of injuries) vs. what the Cowboys did on D (be one of the worst in the league). Now, if we were having an argument over whether Ware is a better pass rusher than Freeney, Allen, Peppers, Harrison and Matthews, that would be relevant. Since we're instead having an argument over whether or not Ware only has gaudy numbers because of the 5-2, or because someone else on the defense is really good, or would disappear if he played in another scheme, then I don't see how Faulk's argument helps your case. Well, I can ony rely on Houston's defensive coordinator, who, if you check the OP, said that the scheme was basically responsible for players he's had in that position. I'll take his word on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doncherry Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 his numbers speak for themselves. This isn't even a debate anywhere else..... FWIW, London Fletcher deserves to be on the list as well...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Jones Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 his numbers speak for themselves. This isn't even a debate anywhere else...... I would take it one step further and say that his numbers, game film, accolades, awards, and respect from other players speak for themselves. ---------- Post added June-27th-2011 at 04:35 PM ---------- Well, I can ony rely on Houston's defensive coordinator, who, if you check the OP, said that the scheme was basically responsible for players he's had in that position. I'll take his word on it. That same coach also called Ware the best LB in the NFL, will you take his word on that too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarrellsMyHero28 Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 NFL Network has been doing the top 100 players and Ware came in at #12. This was voted on by NFL players. The argument that Ware is somehow just a product of a system is asinine and ludicrous. The mental gymnastics that some people go through to hate the Cowboys is ridiculous. You can hate Dallas and still respect the players on the team for their accomplishments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tr1 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 You can hate Dallas and still respect the players on the team for their accomplishments. Really? Why? I guess I missed that PC class. Fans don't celebrate rival players ever. Do a little research and see what Sonny said when JKC hired Norval. ---------- Post added June-27th-2011 at 08:10 PM ---------- That same coach also called Ware the best LB in the NFL, will you take his word on that too? Funny, when he left the pukes, he said scheme was key...and mentioned another guy who benefited from the 5-2 (Merriman). It's easier to be honest when you don't work for an organization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhead36 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Really? Why?I guess I missed that PC class. Fans don't celebrate rival players ever. Nobody is "celebrating" Ware, whatever the hell that means. But it's silly to say he isn't a great player. I hate the Cowboys as much as any Skins fan, but Demarcus Ware is a great player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsnshanny Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Voted on by NFL players, number 12...out of all players, offense, defense, Special teams.... Players.....voting...... So we have the players saying ware is a beast we have 'media' sites like ESPN and Sportsline We have 'grading' sites like outsiders and focus we even have REDSKINS who say ware is a beast. We have numbers (basic stats) that show Ware is a beast (good rebuttle TR1 btw, really came back strong on those harrison comparisons) We have complicated matrices ranking Ware extremely high. We have coaches ranking ware high. The only people knocking ware are the people on this very website, in this very debate. Yet people still sticking to their guns. Its like the people who still think Obama was born in Kenya...despite all evidence pointing one way, they still go the other and swear by it. (sorry for mixing in politics). Ware = unanimous beast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penasquito Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 I love how on this one topic, Chris Cooley has no credibility but Wade Phillips word is gospel. :insane: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Jones Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 I love how on this one topic, Chris Cooley has no credibility but Wade Phillips word is gospel. :insane: Wade is only gospel some of the time, when he was talking up his system and trying to convince people Mario Williams will make a good LB. When he called Ware the best LB in the NFL obviously he was being a company shill /sarcasm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyRomoProBowl Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Voted on by NFL players, number 12...out of all players, offense, defense, Special teams....Players.....voting...... So we have the players saying ware is a beast we have 'media' sites like ESPN and Sportsline We have 'grading' sites like outsiders and focus we even have REDSKINS who say ware is a beast. We have numbers (basic stats) that show Ware is a beast (good rebuttle TR1 btw, really came back strong on those harrison comparisons) We have complicated matrices ranking Ware extremely high. We have coaches ranking ware high. The only people knocking ware are the people on this very website, in this very debate. Yet people still sticking to their guns. Its like the people who still think Obama was born in Kenya...despite all evidence pointing one way, they still go the other and swear by it. (sorry for mixing in politics). Ware = unanimous beast this = close thread, and all point and laugh at TR1 and his fan club. the end! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tr1 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Cooley will continue to talk up Where because he wants to continue to beat him like a drum during games...after all, if you're beating the 'best' regularly, that must make you some kinda special. :rotflmao: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyRomoProBowl Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Cooley will continue to talk up Where because he wants to continue to beat him like a drum during games...after all, if you're beating the 'best' regularly, that must make you some kinda special.:rotflmao: we already through that theory out the window TR1....havens you paid attention....Good grief. Cooley has hardly beaten Ware, i posted the dag on game logs myself....for once i would like it if you used some fact. dig? And how does he "beat someone" that doesn't get used in coverage??? Isn't your entire argument based on him being a one way specialist defined by scheme. A scheme that does not put him in coverage.... Cant make this stuff up! LMAO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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