People say- "I am Christian"; so?

[Kosher Ham]

****Stupid double post****

Sorry.

---------- Post added April-25th-2011 at 01:12 PM ----------

and why do people watch those silly men in tights and padding running into each other week after week after week... i mean, the rules don't change (much), and in the case of the team based in washington DC, the results really don't change either.

Why watch? in the end one team is going to win, just like last week.

This is a pitiful comparison. Seriously.

[Tweedr01]

authentic, if you read and understand the book, why can't you also understand how it relates to you ? That is part of understanding. IMO.

Tweed, I understand the fellowship part and if that is something you appreciate that's cool. Some guys ride motorcycles together, some guys golf, some guys play football. It's more social than spiritual in that aspect though don't you think ?

Hey, if you guys are addicted to being righteous people, I will never stand in the way and appreciate that very much. I just dont understand the need to continue to read the book over and over, nor do I understand going to church for the extended knowledge of something you should already understand.

Then again I don't understand how Koresh and Jones got so many followers either.

I'm not going to pretend that it's for everyone, but if you truly want to grow in your faith it helps, and I have never met someone who did not benefit from fellowship with others in their walk in Christ. My opinion though is that you (not you, you in general) are never a perfect Christian, and there is always room for improvement, which is why fellowship with others is a big deal for those who are looking to grow in their faith.

[Kosher Ham]

and why do people watch those silly men in tights and padding running into each other week after week after week... i mean, the rules don't change (much), and in the case of the team based in washington DC, the results really don't change either.

Why watch? in the end one team is going to win, just like last week.

This is a pitiful comparison. Seriously.

[Spec138]

This is a pitiful comparison. Seriously.

I wonder how many people were wondering if Jesus was going to rise in yesterday's sermon

[Kosher Ham]

I'm not going to pretend that it's for everyone, but if you truly want to grow in your faith it helps, and I have never met someone who did not benefit from fellowship with others in their walk in Christ. My opinion though is that you (not you, you in general) are never a perfect Christian, and there is always room for improvement, which is why fellowship with others is a big deal for those who are looking to grow in their faith.

So as a Christian you should feel not good enough... ever ?

So it's about being below or a follower forever ?

[mcsluggo]

if you say so...

yet it is completly understandable to ask why people continue to look for guidance and knowledge from what they consider to be the most important font of knowledge in the history of mankind... when after all, they should have all that stuff all figured out...

(and then just throw in a barbed reference to a mass murderer or two for some extra spice)

[Kosher Ham]

I wonder how many people were wondering if Jesus was going to rise in yesterday's sermon

Some people don't understand that football is entertainment, and faith in a higher being is life.

[mcsluggo]

actually.. life is life.

we do things we do in life, that is living.

[Burgold]

Now, just to be fair I'll back up ASF's side on this argument. I think you get different things from a book than you do for a teacher. How many times in school did you read a book and think you had understood it, but then in practice really didn't. Havng a teacher or having real life practice with the theory is valuable and adds a lot to the material found in a book. So, in that sense reading the Bible and going to Church would both be valuable because they would give you different ways to examine and learn.

[Kosher Ham]

if you say so...

yet it is completly understandable to ask why people continue to look for guidance and knowledge from what they consider to be the most important font of knowledge in the history of mankind... when after all, they should have all that stuff all figured out...

(and then just throw in a barbed reference to a mass murderer or two for some extra spice)

That is not at all what I am saying. Ugh.

My point is and has been... why are you seeking guidance in something you should fully understand...

The whole point is that you believe and I am cool with that. Do your thing. I am asking questions simply because I see it differently. Not challenging your faith but trying to get clarity.

Thing that makes it most difficult for me is that if there was a real answer it wouldn't be so hard to explain.

Side note: I threw them in as example of people with followers that thought they where their saviors too. But I do love me some spicy.

[Tweedr01]

So as a Christian you should feel not good enough... ever ?

So it's about being below or a follower forever ?

lol sort of, that's not to say we don't let our pride get the best of us at times, I know that's something I do constantly on this board as well as in person. The reality is the as a Christian I know I'm a sinner, and no amount of good things I do will change that. I only hope that everyday I wake up I can better my walk with Christ, and by my actions others will see that in me. Again, I'm not great at it, but I am always working on it.

And yes, I will be a Christ follower for FOREVER!

...and yes, that is a sandlot pic above!

[Burgold]

That is not at all what I am saying. Ugh.

My point is and has been... why are you seeking guidance in something you should fully understand...

The whole point is that you believe and I am cool with that. Do your thing. I am asking questions simply because I see it differently. Not challenging your faith but trying to get clarity.

Thing that makes it most difficult for me is that if there was a real answer it wouldn't be so hard to explain.

Side note: I threw them in as example of people with followers that thought they where their saviors too. But I do love me some spicy.

How about this then... Do you believe in the theory of relativity? You can read about it in a book, but gaining a teacher's insights where you can have some back and forth might help you understand it better. Soem people may never truly be able to grasp physics simply by reading the book.

In general though, I agree with your point.

[Kosher Ham]

actually.. life is life.

we do things we do in life, that is living.

If your life is the church, that is your faith. Thus your life.

Now, just to be fair I'll back up ASF's side on this argument. I think you get different things from a book than you do for a teacher. How many times in school did you read a book and think you had understood it, but then in practice really didn't. Havng a teacher or having real life practice with the theory is valuable and adds a lot to the material found in a book. So, in that sense reading the Bible and going to Church would both be valuable because they would give you different ways to examine and learn.

That is your own lesson to learn. It has nothing to do with going to Church/Temple/Mosque, etc.

I look at all of these religious books and to me they all say to me "make it your own". Respect others, respect yourself, and dont be "that guy".

---------- Post added April-25th-2011 at 02:03 PM ----------

Tweed, love the post. Good stuff.

But why should religion make you feel like you can never be good enough? Life does that on it's own.

How does a teacher regarding the book teach you more? I thought the book was meant to be interpreted individually and then you apply it accordingly.

[authentic]

That is your own lesson to learn. It has nothing to do with going to Church/Temple/Mosque, etc.

If thats the case, then why go to school? Couldn't the same principles (in your theory) apply to school as well?

I look at all of these religious books and to me they all say to me "make it your own"..

Being that the Bible is what i'm most familiar with, I've never recieved those sentiments in the Book. Actually, its to the contrary. Which is why so many people are at odds with it. The Bible doesn't leave much room for gray areas for what is wrong or right, and the concequences for each. Its pretty straight forward.

[Spec138]

How about this then... Do you believe in the theory of relativity? You can read about it in a book, but gaining a teacher's insights where you can have some back and forth might help you understand it better. Soem people may never truly be able to grasp physics simply by reading the book.

In general though, I agree with your point.

Oh these analogies of physics and religion, they'll be the death of me

I understand your point in doing it though.

[Kosher Ham]

authentic, Umm...Bill Gates was a dropout. Lots of people home school these days. So sure, we agree.

You made it your own and didn't even know it. Then you used the support system in place to help you clarify it.

I feel like I read it just like any other book and took the good messages out of it, but not as a message to lead my path in life.

But for you to say the Bible doesn't leave gray areas defeats your own comment.

[Spec138]

If thats the case, then why go to school? Couldn't the same principles (in your theory) apply to school as well?

IMO, if the bible is the perfect word of god (John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.") then what more could be needed? I see it claimed so often that the mind of god cannot be know by man, it is incomprehensible, yet so many rely on their perceived spiritual leader for guidance. Maybe it's just a result of us lazy Americans

[Tweedr01]

Tweed, love the post. Good stuff.

But why should religion make you feel like you can never be good enough? Life does that on it's own.

How does a teacher regarding the book teach you more? I thought the book was meant to be interpreted individually and then you apply it accordingly.

It's not that I don't feel good enough in the sense of me personally, I'm not depressed, lol, I to a fault have a high sense of pride. I'll try to give a good analogy, but it will probably still be pretty crappy. Take Brian Orakpo for instance. When he was a rookie coming in he was great, we all loved him and thought he was going to be a great addition. He on the other hand knew that he was just a rookie, no matter how high in the draft he was taken, and knew that even if he was good he couldn't be great unless he always worked at it. There would always be someone better than him, and instead of trying to better himself, he looked to those that were better than him already and tried to learn from them. Now he still isn't the best, but he's making great strides and will continue to do so if he stays on the current path he has chosen. Again, not the best analogy, but it made sense when I made it up in my head, lol.

We all have to apply it to our individual lives as all of us are individuals, but that doesn't mean we can't get better at the lesson plan and maybe one day teach those who are in the shoes we used to be in.

EDIT: btw kosher I really do like these type of questions, making me think and as a conservative you know that's a difficult task

[AsburySkinsFan]

ASF that is double talk.

In one breath you are telling me I need the book, in the next you are telling me that going to services are equally important.

As we talked about before, there is no reason to go to church if you have read and interpreted the book, or there is no reason to read the book if you are going to learn from it by going to service every week, sometimes (as my Grandmother) several times per week.

It's only double talk because you want it to be, the Book and the community in worship are not mutually exclusive, what's more is that worshiping in community is something that just reading the book can't give you alone, not to mention that learning (i.e. discipleship) takes place within the community not on our own. If you try to go it alone you'll end up very far away because you've got no teacher.

[authentic]

authentic, Umm...Bill Gates was a dropout. Lots of people home school these days. So sure, we agree.

You made it your own and didn't even know it. Then you used the support system in place to help you clarify it.

I feel like I read it just like any other book and took the good messages out of it, but not as a message to lead my path in life.

But for you to say the Bible doesn't leave gray areas defeats your own comment.

I'm not stating this as a universal principle. I'm speaking in general (and i think the other posters are as well). That its good to have that system in place for several different reasons, but teaching and instruction is definately one of them, when used the right way. Sure you have those who are self-educated, but we know that is more of the exception to the rule. Most others need someone to help guide them along the way, not as a surrogate father of course. But to assist them as they continue to learn.

[AsburySkinsFan]

authentic, if you read and understand the book, why can't you also understand how it relates to you ? That is part of understanding. IMO.

Because it's not just about reading the words, it's about understanding the meaning, and knowledge of vocabulary alone cannot give you the full understanding of the text, that said if you are only looking at the words then you will not fully understand, and if you don't fully understand then how can you relate it to your life?

Tweed, I understand the fellowship part and if that is something you appreciate that's cool. Some guys ride motorcycles together, some guys golf, some guys play football. It's more social than spiritual in that aspect though don't you think ?

This isn't a "club", and to characterize the church as such is to minimize the body of Christ in this world; i.e. the church.

Hey, if you guys are addicted to being righteous people, I will never stand in the way and appreciate that very much. I just dont understand the need to continue to read the book over and over, nor do I understand going to church for the extended knowledge of something you should already understand.

That's an odd thing, I wonder how many times experts in Shakespeare have read through his complete works, my guess is that if they truly an expert then they make the study of his works a life long process, and do not assume that because they've read through once that they then know all there is to know.

---------- Post added April-25th-2011 at 02:40 PM ----------

So as a Christian you should feel not good enough... ever ?

In some ways yes, we are constantly in process.

So it's about being below or a follower forever ?

At some point you become a teacher, but you're always a student and you always follow the master.

[authentic]

IMO, if the bible is the perfect word of god (John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.") then what more could be needed? I see it claimed so often that the mind of god cannot be know by man, it is incomprehensible, yet so many rely on their perceived spiritual leader for guidance. Maybe it's just a result of us lazy Americans

Let me correct you, "The ENTIRE mind of God cannot be known by man"..That is because we don't have all of the information given to us from God. However, what has been revealed to us via his prophets, apostles, and His Son Jesus, is enough for us to live this life with sound wisdom and most importantly to give us eteranal life.

And as said previously, you don't HAVE to sit under a pastor or a "spiritual leader" to know God or understand his word. There's nothing in scripture which implies that it has to be the case, or that God is limited in such a fashion. Rather God has provided us a church structure for believers to live by. Just think of other segments of society where you have a "leader/professor/supervisor" to help the other professionals improve themselves.

[AsburySkinsFan]

IMO, if the bible is the perfect word of god (John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.") then what more could be needed?

See this is where the community is needed, because where John in 1:1 is using the "Word" he's not saying that the Bible was in the beginning with God, instead that Jesus (who is the Word made flesh) was in the beginning with God. John 1:14 "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

I see it claimed so often that the mind of god cannot be know by man, it is incomprehensible, yet so many rely on their perceived spiritual leader for guidance. Maybe it's just a result of us lazy Americans

We cannot fully understand God, however that does not mean that God cannot and does not sufficiently reveal himself through the scriptures and through the church.

[Spec138]

See this is where the community is needed, because where John in 1:1 is using the "Word" he's not saying that the Bible was in the beginning with God, instead that Jesus (who is the Word made flesh) was in the beginning with God. John 1:14 "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

If you didn't look that up kudos to you. John was the last book I've read recently and I just remembered the very vague, weird beginning of it and that line in particular. My bible actually does have an annotation that says the same thing, now looking closer.

[Thinking Skins]

Your interpretation is an opinion. And the weather isn't a good analogy to the Bible. I don't believe in it as an infallible word of god. I think it is a collection of historical stories. And the people writing history write it from their own perspective. Like I said, Constantine wrote his Bible the way he wanted for his own political purposes and King James wrote his Bible the way he wanted for his own political purposes. How do you explain the "lost gospels" or the "lost books" that are remarkabley different than the Bible that's come down through the centuries? That's why I called it a piece of propaganda.

As far as thinking knowing you have something people need, that's a pretty superior attitude. "I know what's best for you" kind of superority. Why not just talk about basic, common morality without attaching any sky god myth to it? Teach the rule of law that is not based on some religion? Common morality is just that, common to all peoples like Bhuddists, Muslims, Jewish, Shinto, Native American. That's because people need a common way to be in society. Religions have attached their myths to this common morality as parables. Jesus taught people how to behave to other people on the Sermon on the Mount and fed thousands of people from a couple of loaves of bread and fish. I take that to mean that we should feed the hungry. Didn't he also say that if one does this to the least of these (meaning poor, sick, homeless, naked etc.) one has done it for me? Doesn't that sound like we have a duty to see that all go without want? Yet a fundamentalist intrepretation of the Bible is to fend for oneself, one should provide for oneself and too bad for anyone who doesn't? That's what the Tea Party is saying when they want to cut Medicare, Social Security and Medicaid? Where is compassion?

You see how this is all tied up together? I see so-called Christians proclaiming not so Christ-like policies. That's why I can tell about people about how they live and what they do and not what they say about a collection of stories.

I totally understand where you come from with this stuff. There are a LOT of open questions about the Bible and religion in general that really annoy me. And it annoys me more that many Christians are either afraid to ask questions, or seem to think that their interpretation is the only possible interpretation. I call myself a Christian, but many times I've had this questioned. I state openly that I don't believe every word of the Bible, as it was written by man. I sometimes question the statements of Paul when I feel that he's going against Jesus's teachings. And one of the biggest questions I raise is the question of "The Great Commission" vs "the Great Commandment". i.e. when Jesus says "Go ye therefore baptizing in the name of the Father, the son, and the Holy Spirit", is that a commandment or is that a suggestion? When Jesus says that the greatest commandment is to love God and to love your neighbor, was the great commission something that he knew would later supersede this? Sounds kinda contradictory. I've read books on this and talked to many pastors about it. Ultimately I've formed a universalistic belief which says that anybody who follows the great commandment can go to heaven, regardless of their "baptism", i.e. I believe that Gandhi is in Heaven.

---------- Post added April-25th-2011 at 03:50 PM ----------

Can't speak for anyone else but dropping my faith when the time came was pretty easy. The worst times I had were contemplating an eternal hell, knowing there must be some chance I would go there; I've never been afraid of a death where I don't exist though. I am very thankful for that.

EDIT: Forgot to add I think you are right though. Advocating your position could help to reinforce confidence in your choice.

Continuing what I was saying earlier, one of my biggest questions on Christianity comes with the preached "fear of Hell". To me, its so sad that the great commission has been reduced to a few lines from the Gospels and sermon after sermon of "become a Christian or you're going to Hell". I mean, thats basically what ASF has been saying here - that the Christian way is the way. If your only purpose for converting to Christianity is fear of going to hell, then to paraphrase Paul in Romans, you're focusing on the letter of the law and not the spirit of the law. I don't know if I believe in Hell, but I definitely don't fear it. If my not preaching the great commission makes me wind up there then I'm satisfied that my heart was in the right place and I'll deal with the consequences as they come.