Season Ticket Renewals

[Mark The Homer]

Good report, RFKFedEx. :thumbsup:

[Jeffro]

NFL teams need to come to terms with the enviroment we are in and make adjustments. What pisses me off about the Redskins is I call in trying to buy Loge seasons and would pay 5500 for two seats.. which is roughly 50% off what they want you to pay for them. Now, I know in the past they had a 2 for 1 deal, but will they offer it to me? Nope. Hell, I would even sign up for 10 years. Yet, I can go on stubhub and pay less than that per game for the entire season because the Redskins are dumping Loge tickets on Stubhub that they can't sell.. How the hell does that make sense?

It must have something to do with their season ticket contracts is my guess, probably cant offer season tickets at some % lower than what they have STH's signed up for and they are happy and content having their cake and eating it too.

Edited September 23, 2011 by Jeffro

[RFKFedEx]

Good report, RFKFedEx. :thumbsup:

Thanks Homer. Should make our STHs feel a lot better about what we're paying.

Hail!

[hail2skins]

The lopsided market is not limited to the prime club level seats. Let’s have a look at the nose bleeds on the upper level sidelines. As the least expensive PSL option the Cowboys offer, the upper level sideline seating will cost the STH apx. $927.00 per seat, per season, which includes the annual PSL fee. That breaks down to about $93 per seat, per game for 10 games; or $115 per seat, per game for 8 games. Here’s a listing on Stubhub for near midfield uppers in the same PSL zone for $33 per seat. That’s about $40 per seat after taxes and fees. Remember, this is for the NFCE home opener, not preseason.

RFKFedEx, what have you found as far as people being able to sell their PSL (in various cities) for more than they bought them for? I recall you might have posted on that once but can't remember what you found out.

---------- Post added September-23rd-2011 at 06:01 PM ----------

NFL teams need to come to terms with the enviroment we are in and make adjustments. What pisses me off about the Redskins is I call in trying to buy Loge seasons and would pay 5500 for two seats.. which is roughly 50% off what they want you to pay for them. Now, I know in the past they had a 2 for 1 deal, but will they offer it to me? Nope. Hell, I would even sign up for 10 years. Yet, I can go on stubhub and pay less than that per game for the entire season because the Redskins are dumping Loge tickets on Stubhub that they can't sell.. How the hell does that make sense?

Totally agree, especially when you stories of the Redskins offering fans sweet deals on the club level for ONE year, with the promise to upgrade from uppers to lowers as a result. But loyal customers who might consider signing a long term deal, if the price is right? No dice.

[RFKFedEx]

RFKFedEx, what have you found as far as people being able to sell their PSL (in various cities) for more than they bought them for? I recall you might have posted on that once but can't remember what you found out..

It's tough for me to track the PSL market because I don't have data on what various seats were selling for when the stadiums opened, aside from the Cowboys and Giants. I have read on other team forums that many of the Eagles and Ravens PSLs have gained little to no equity since those venues opened. As recently as this summer, fans on Panther boards were claiming that getting anything for their PSLs had grown difficult with all of the STs selling for face value on the open market. That was all message board chatter, but I won't totally write it off.

Seat location probably has a lot to do with the PSLs current value and equity gained over time.

Edit for research:

Here's a Panthers PSL listing on Ebay where the seller is claiming to provide 4 PSLs at $35,000 below what they paid the Panthers. Not sure when this PSL was purchased from the team, perhaps 1996. Also of note, several of the Carolina PSL listings on Ebay are held by the same broker. Makes me say hummmm, how did one broker get a majority of the PSLs featured on Ebay? Could it be the work of the Panthers TO?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-CAROLINA-PANTHERS-PSL-PSLS-PSLS-35K-DISCOUNT-/320480917239?pt=US_Tickets_all_in_one&hash=item4a9e26b6f7#ht_2226wt_1163

Here's a Craiglist posting for Panther PSLs below STH cost in 1996.

http://charlotte.craigslist.org/tix/2592848585.html

Rams discounted PSL. Notice this Ebay listing looks almost the same as the Panthers Ebay listing above.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/6-ST-LOUIS-RAMS-PSL-PSLS-PSLS-SEAT-LICENSE-RIGHTS-/220666223123?pt=US_Tickets_all_in_one&hash=item3360bb5a13#ht_1000wt_1163

Edited September 24, 2011 by RFKFedEx

[tshile]

What does a PSL provide you?

I mean other than being a fee, what are you getting for paying the fee?

Everyone talks about how badly we need a new stadium...

I wont be able to afford it. I hope we stay at fedex for the remaining 15 years...

[Mark The Homer]

It's like equity. The promise is its value will rise, but it seems the opposite is true in most cases.

[SonnyandSam]

What does a PSL provide you?

I mean other than being a fee, what are you getting for paying the fee?

Everyone talks about how badly we need a new stadium...

I wont be able to afford it. I hope we stay at fedex for the remaining 15 years...

A PSL simply gives you the right to buy the season tickets for those seats you own a PSL for. Nothing more. It is just another way for billionaires to raise capital for their swanky stadiums.

And while you can sell your PSL rights, as Mark points out, none of us have found examples of people making significant money on their "investment". In most cases, people who sell their PSL, lose money.

Edited September 24, 2011 by SonnyandSam

[chipwhich]

And while you can sell your PSL rights, as Mark points out, none of us have found examples of people making significant money on their "investment".

Well I have seen it at Ravens stadium. Their lower level PSL's were a steal. Had you bought Ravens PSL's when the stadium opened you would easily sell them now at a significant profit.

I think the PSL deal will run it's course...at least at their ridiculous pricing strategy as of late..... The NFL will continually struggle to sell tickets as home viewing continues to improve.

[RFKFedEx]

Well I have seen it at Ravens stadium. Their lower level PSL's were a steal. Had you bought Ravens PSL's when the stadium opened you would easily sell them now at a significant profit.

Most of the Ravens PSLs on Ebay look like they belong to brokers. Here's a pair of PSLs in the lower level, sideline seating selling for $8500 total. I sure wish I knew what the Ravens were charging for these in 1997-98 when the stadium opened.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Ravens-PSLs-PSL-Upper-Lev-Sec-551-Row-13-SUNNY-SIDE-/200653128185?pt=US_Tickets_all_in_one&hash=item2eb7dbc1f9#ht_500wt_1413

Ravens and Eagles fans probably got a better deal their PSLs than most franchises, bc the teams have been mostly good in their new stadiums, lots of playoff games, and they aren't over sized on seating capacity. It's hard to gauge PSL value during the season. The offseasons are probably more telling of the true market value. However, I'll bet one could still do better on the single game purchasing method in both towns.

[Jeeb]

Well I have seen it at Ravens stadium. Their lower level PSL's were a steal. Had you bought Ravens PSL's when the stadium opened you would easily sell them now at a significant profit.

I think the PSL deal will run it's course...at least at their ridiculous pricing strategy as of late..... The NFL will continually struggle to sell tickets as home viewing continues to improve.

That's why I don't want the Skins to move anytime soon, even if I were insanely rich the concept of PSL's absolutely infuriates me.

[chipwhich]

My one buddies lower level 30/35 yard line about 14 rows up I believe he paid $3500 per seat. My employee has lower level, about the same number of rows up, right along the sideline 0-5 yard line I think he told me he paid $2500 a piece. I think 50 yard line lowers were about 5 grand a piece.

I agree with you from purely a price perspective, tickets without PSL's are cheaper. I just think in the situation of the Ravens, before PSL rape pricing, had you bought in initially, you can get the PSL cost back * 2.

I believe mu old coworker paid $750 a piece for upper level corners (that was initial pricing).

Edited September 24, 2011 by chipwhich

[tshile]

Ok, so you get the PSL.

What happens if you don't buy tickets for the 2012 season? Do you retain the PSL and the right to buy those same seats for the 2013 season? Or do you forgo those rights and essentially lose the PSL?

Pardon my ignorance on the subject..

[chipwhich]

That's why I don't want the Skins to move anytime soon, even if I were insanely rich the concept of PSL's absolutely infuriates me.

Yeah anyone clamoring for a new stadium and claiming they hate fedex is foolish. Many season ticket holders wont be able to afford to sit in a state of the art stadium if Danny built a new one.

---------- Post added September-24th-2011 at 01:51 PM ----------

Ok, so you get the PSL.

What happens if you don't buy tickets for the 2012 season? Do you retain the PSL and the right to buy those same seats for the 2013 season? Or do you forgo those rights and essentially lose the PSL?

Pardon my ignorance on the subject..

You are required to purchase the tickets.

[tshile]

So then I take it if you don't purchase the tickets, you lose the PSL since you're not fulfilling your requirements.

Which means a PSL is essentially a tax on the privilege to buy tickets...

which is what I thought it was... what a crock, I cannot believe anyone would buy them.

edit:

the whole system reminds me of the housing bubble nonsense before it collapsed.

here, we justify this price because when you're ready you'll be able to see it for more than what you paid for it. so just consider it an investment. it'll always go up in value. we promise

Edited September 24, 2011 by tshile

[chipwhich]

the whole system reminds me of the housing bubble nonsense before it collapsed.

here, we justify this price because when you're ready you'll be able to see it for more than what you paid for it. so just consider it an investment. it'll always go up in value. we promise

Hey it beats the hell out of Danny's Club Level Lease scam. At least if you want out of a PSL, you can sell them to someone else, even if it is only a $1. Heck you can even default. You are then free and clear. With the lease scam, you commit to 3, 5, 10 years of outrageous payments.

[Mark The Homer]

You can sell your club lease too. I sold my five year lease after 1999.

[chipwhich]

You can sell your club lease too. I sold my five year lease after 1999.

True.

I guess to clarify. If someone buys my PSL's for $1 and hits financial hardship. They can fold up tent with no commitment.

Someone considering your club lease is committing to 1-9 years of season ticket purchasing. It's a lot tougher sell.

Of course I am basing this off the Ravens PSL's.

I am not sure what the commitment is when buying Cowboy's PSL's and signing up for a 30 year mortgage to pay them back.

Edited September 24, 2011 by chipwhich

[SonnyandSam]

True.

I guess to clarify. If someone buys my PSL's for $1 and hits financial hardship. They can fold up tent with no commitment.

Someone considering your club lease is committing to 1-9 years of season ticket purchasing. It's a lot tougher sell.

Of course I am basing this off the Ravens PSL's.

I am not sure what the commitment is when buying Cowboy's PSL's and signing up for a 30 year mortgage to pay them back.

My understanding is that anyone with a PSL who does not buy season tickets forfeits the license back to the professional team. So a PSL is no better and no worse than Danny's contractual commitments...although Danny's contracts actually are better in a way. You can stop buying your tickets at the end of the contract. With the PSL, if you can't sell it, you lose the PSL with no compensation. On the other hand if you try to break your contract with Danny, you have to worry about being sued.

I see the "asking price" for PSLs on ebay and the various PSL sales sites....but I wonder what the purchase price is typically. Are the PSL owners actually getting what they ask for?

[chipwhich]

My understanding is that anyone with a PSL who does not buy season tickets forfeits the license back to the professional team. So a PSL is no better and no worse than Danny's contractual commitments...although Danny's contracts actually are better in a way. You can stop buying your tickets at the end of the contract. With the PSL, if you can't sell it, you lose the PSL with no compensation. On the other hand if you try to break your contract with Danny, you have to worry about being sued.

I see the "asking price" for PSLs on ebay and the various PSL sales sites....but I wonder what the purchase price is typically. Are the PSL owners actually getting what they ask for?

No I sign a 10 year contract for club seats. 2 years into I am broke. I can't pay for tickets. I forfeit tickets and I get collection agency banging on my door and get credit dinged.

I pay 5 grand for Ravens PSL's. 2 years after buying them I can't afford tickets. Team gets my PSL's. I lose my initial purchase price but am under no contractual obligation to the Ravens. No credit agencies coming after me, no bad credit.

Of course I explained in terms of the Cowboys where people may be taking out 30 year loans with the teams, then this isn't the case. But if you pay for them upfront, you can walk away at any time without recourse.

Not true for Club Level seats.

By the way, I would bet in ANY stadium if I needed to unload a PSL I could get something for it.

Edited September 25, 2011 by chipwhich

[hail2skins]

Of course I explained in terms of the Cowboys where people may be taking out 30 year loans with the teams, then this isn't the case. But if you pay for them upfront, you can walk away at any time without recourse.

Yeah Chip I wonder if you finance a PSL for 30 years and then walk away after, say, two years, are you responsible for the balance of the loan? I would imagine you would be.

The PSLs for the GA seats at Cowboys Stadium ($2-5K) seem OK but the licenses for the clubbers, starting at 16K and going to 50K......geez! Gotta be hard for someone to get even close to that back.

[RFKFedEx]

Sunday in St. Louis.

Lower level, midfield. Just a tad over $100 per seat. Dirt cheap.

http://www.stubhub.com/st-louis-rams-tickets/rams-vs-redskins-edward-jones-dome-1068470/?ticket_id=388894086

[RFKFedEx]

Did anyone get an email offer for tickets this week? I didn't.

The market is extra tight this week, so I called the TO today to see what's available for Sunday against the Iggles. Nothing but singles in the lower level endzones and pairs in the 400s.

[HOF44]

Did anyone get an email offer for tickets this week? I didn't.

I got one, it was for $64 tickets.

[DC9]

Did anyone get an email offer for tickets this week? I didn't.

The market is extra tight this week, so I called the TO today to see what's available for Sunday against the Iggles. Nothing but singles in the lower level endzones and pairs in the 400s.

I didn't. I actually have a couple of buddies that hit me up too. They said that they wanted to buy any player returns. So, looks like it's gonna be a big crowd. Hopefully less green and more burgandy and gold.

HAIL!