Jason Redi (WP): Given the Redskins' needs, drafting a quarterback would be indefensible

[#98QBKiller]

Low and behold he takes a few more years, team around him gets better, and the same "clown" is arguably a top 5 QB.

I don't even think it's arguable anymore. You have Manning, Brady, Brees, and Rodgers sitting at the top of the heap IMO.

Good overall post BTW, I just wanted to address that specific point and not quote a huge chunk of text. I also know what you mean about the McNabb situation. I'm not happy that we gave up that pick for him only to give up on him after 13 games. He's proven to be a very good QB, I think he needs more than 13 games in a new system after growing comfortable in Philly under Reid for so long. But either way, I don't think we should reach for any of the QBs in this draft either. I've already said it in this thread but the draft class of 2012 have QBs that project better at the NFL level than this class does. This draft seems to be deep in defenders and I think that's what we should do in April. Add a DE and a LB and let's wait until next year to go for the QB we want.

[Skinsinparadise]

What young QB's? Ramsey and Campbell? Lets see, Campbell had Portis who averaged roughly 1000 yards and Moss who average nearly 1000 yards and at least 70+ catches. As for Ramsey, who cares.

We also had a stretch with a decent o line, back when we had Jansen and Samuels in their prime, Thomas, Dockery, Rabach in his prime. The supporting cast helps but IMO a young GOOD QB won't fall apart if he doesn't have the ideal supporting cast right away. What's so special about the Rams wide receivers for example? Their O line is all right but its not as if Bradford took over lets say the Eagles with their supporting cast. You can see the improvement with the Rams under Bradford from the previous season,and its tough for me to believe that its all because of Saffold.

[IrepDC]

Why do you keep saying this? Jason Campbell had just as much time and opportunity to prove himself as Rodgers. Rodgers just, you know, proved himself.

Do you want to compare rosters of the two teams? How about offensive coordinators? How about just looking at the situation each player was drafted into, because if you're going to say Green Bay was a better team from the beginning, you are proving my point. I'm not even debating Jason would have been better, I'm saying Rodgers would have been much worse coming here. And our team is arguably in worse shape right now.

Edit: To be clear, I am not making a Rodgers vs Campbell argument. I am making a Rodgers(Packers) vs Rodgers(Redskins) argument. It's all hypothetical though and just my opinion.

[Bootleg]

Do you want to compare rosters of the two teams? How about offensive coordinators? How about just looking at the situation each player was drafted into, because if you're going to say Green Bay was a better team from the beginning, you are proving my point. I'm not even debating Jason would have been better, I'm saying Rodgers would have been much worse coming here. And our team is arguably in worse shape right now.

Edit: To be clear, I am not making a Rodgers vs Campbell argument. I am making a Rodgers(Packers) vs Rodgers(Redskins) argument. It's all hypothetical though and just my opinion.

Hmmm...

Aaron Rodgers went to a Packers that would go 4-12, HC Mike Sherman get fired, and Brett Favre would ignore Rodgers. The team had 1352 rushing yards total at 3.4 yards per carry. Their #1 was Donald Driver who had 1234 yards.

Jason Campbell went to the Redskins that would go 10-6, HOF HC Joe Gibbs, at least a nice guy in Mark Brunell. Clinton Portis alone had over 1500 yards, Santana Moss had over 1500 yards, and of course, Chris Cooley.

By 2008, Aaron Rodgers got his first start. Jason Campbell had 20.

Aaron Rodgers was sacked 34 times. Jason Campbell was sacked 38 times.

Aaron Rodgers had the 22th/20th (points/yards) ranked defense supporting him. Jason Campbell had the 6th/4th.

Aaron Rodgers had a running game that averaged 4.1 ypc that totaled 1805 yards. Jason Campell had a running game that averaged 4.4 ypc that totaled 2095 yards.

Somehow Aaron Rodgers in his first season starting had a 63.6% completion percentage, 28 TD and 13 INT. Jason Campell in starts 21-36 had a respectable 62.3% completion percentage, but just 13 TD and 6 INT.

After the season, Aaron Rodgers said that he was disappointed in himself and was going to work harder to improve. Jason Campbell said he thought he had a pretty good season.

Hmmm.

[IrepDC]

Hmmm...

Aaron Rodgers went to a Packers that would go 4-12, HC Mike Sherman get fired, and Brett Favre would ignore Rodgers. The team had 1352 rushing yards total at 3.4 yards per carry. Their #1 was Donald Driver who had 1234 yards.

Jason Campbell went to the Redskins that would go 10-6, HOF HC Joe Gibbs, at least a nice guy in Mark Brunell. Clinton Portis alone had over 1500 yards, Santana Moss had over 1500 yards, and of course, Chris Cooley.

By 2008, Aaron Rodgers got his first start. Jason Campbell had 20.

Aaron Rodgers was sacked 34 times. Jason Campbell was sacked 38 times.

Aaron Rodgers had the 22th/20th (points/yards) ranked defense supporting him. Jason Campbell had the 6th/4th.

Aaron Rodgers had a running game that averaged 4.1 ypc that totaled 1805 yards. Jason Campell had a running game that averaged 4.4 ypc that totaled 2095 yards.

Somehow Aaron Rodgers in his first season starting had a 63.6% completion percentage, 28 TD and 13 INT. Jason Campell in starts 21-36 had a respectable 62.3% completion percentage, but just 13 TD and 6 INT.

After the season, Aaron Rodgers said that he was disappointed in himself and was going to work harder to improve. Jason Campbell said he thought he had a pretty good season.

Hmmm.

So I'm assuming it is your opinion that we built around our QB better than they built around Rodgers? That's interesting considering the state of each teams roster today excluding the QB position. They have depth 3 man deep and we have holes all over. As I said before though, I don't want to get too far off topic debating the past. I posted a long response comparing how both teams built from drafting the two QBs before.

My only point relevant to this thread is that I don't think it would be best to draft a QB into our current situation. It wouldn't be impossible for success, but it would make the odds a lot worse. I can understand both sides of the argument, but I don't think people should react so harshly to the writer's opinion.

[wilco_holland]

Lol in a QB controled league we rather go for D#. I agree that a great D# can make you SB champ but I also know that great QB´s don´t come by a lot, of you have a chance take it.

[grantarchy]

What is so wrong with having Rex Grossman abused for a year or two while we build up the team? What else are we paying him for anyways?

[blindlywewander]

Lol in a QB controled league we rather go for D#. I agree that a great D# can make you SB champ but I also know that great QB´s don´t come by a lot, of you have a chance take it.

If there was a great qb in this class, I'd agree. I just don't think there is. A project in Gabbert isn't worth the 10th pick in my opinion.

[Skinsinparadise]

What is so wrong with having Rex Grossman abused for a year or two while we build up the team? What else are we paying him for anyways?

What is so wrong with having a young QB sit behind Grossman while he's being abused as we develop the roster?

---------- Post added February-23rd-2011 at 07:28 PM ----------

If there was a great qb in this class, I'd agree. I just don't think there is. A project in Gabbert isn't worth the 10th pick in my opinion.

That's cool especially couching it as your opinion. Personally I got no clue if Gabbert is the real deal but if Shanny does think he's the real deal, I'd ride with it or at the very least wouldn't be so confident that I know more about the young QB's than Shanny to the degree where I can confidently say its "indefensible" to draft one.

[Conn]

A project in Gabbert isn't worth the 10th pick in my opinion.

I honestly think the only thing that makes Gabbert a "project" is the offense he came from, and the fact that he hasn't had to read an NFL defense/ go through NFL progressions. And 90% of prospects have those worries.

I like Gabbert better than I liked Sanchez, Freeman, Tebow, and McCoy. They've all performed pretty well, even as rookies.

Honestly, I think Gabbert could step in by week 6-7 and take over.

[ChillSkinzFan84]

Reid is a douche. But i do understand his thinking, I just don't agree. Once we traded JC I said that we now HAVE to draft a qb. If not this year then we are just putting off the inevitable. Even if mcnabb stays we need to draft a qb so he'll be ready to play when donovan leaves

It's true we do have holes all over this roster but we created another one when we traded jc. We do desperately need help on dline and olb so I understand not drafting a qb who won't play this year, but to say theres no way possible we should draft one is dumb. If shanny sees a qb that he thinks is a franchise guy then he has to make that move

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I readily admit that you could be right, and maybe I'm being a bit too cautious. I just think that with another year of developing our team(Including using that top ten pick on BPA), the situation could be leaps and bounds ahead of where it would be this year.

What if QB is BPA on our board when we pick?

[Dirt]

Actually John Elway won 2 out of the 5 Superbowls he appeared in. and that was in the last millennium. Shanny 3.0 has done jack for the Redskins so this blind assessment that he is a super genius doesn't fly here until there are results here to back it up.

People act as if his brain was removed, replaced and he's a different person, and possibly, all the sudden, a lousy coach.

He's 2 time superbowl winning coach Mike Shannahan, and that's that. Did you say the same about Gibbs 2.0? They only argument I'll take is that he could be 'out of the loop', or 'too old school' for the new game. And I still think that's bogus. BTW just because Gibbs didn't win a superbowl during his second tenure doesn't mean he's lousy.

[tiger187126]

so where did all those top 10 defenses get us exactly?

has been and will continue to be the most overrated statistic about this franchise.

but seriously, keep on pounding your chest about a top 10 defense on a 4-12 team.

[ChillSkinzFan84]

I don't even think it's arguable anymore. You have Manning, Brady, Brees, and Rodgers sitting at the top of the heap IMO.

Good overall post BTW, I just wanted to address that specific point and not quote a huge chunk of text. I also know what you mean about the McNabb situation. I'm not happy that we gave up that pick for him only to give up on him after 13 games. He's proven to be a very good QB, I think he needs more than 13 games in a new system after growing comfortable in Philly under Reid for so long. But either way, I don't think we should reach for any of the QBs in this draft either. I've already said it in this thread but the draft class of 2012 have QBs that project better at the NFL level than this class does. This draft seems to be deep in defenders and I think that's what we should do in April. Add a DE and a LB and let's wait until next year to go for the QB we want.

I def understand your line of thinking but shanny may not be here in 2-3 years. If Rex is our qb the next 2 years then we have no chance of being good and shanny will be on the hotseat by midseason.

His best bet is to bring mcnabb back and say that he truly was evaluating rex last year and decided that donovan is the man for the job. That way he looks better and it won't seem like he threw donovan under the bus this past season. And we'll have a chance to be good the next couple of years

[blindlywewander]

I honestly think the only thing that makes Gabbert a "project" is the offense he came from, and the fact that he hasn't had to read an NFL defense/ go through NFL progressions. And 90% of prospects have those worries.

I like Gabbert better than I liked Sanchez, Freeman, Tebow, and McCoy. They've all performed pretty well, even as rookies.

Honestly, I think Gabbert could step in by week 6-7 and take over.

I disagree. I like Gabberts arm and his 'moxy' but he seems to have happy feet. I think he's got a high ceiling, but I'm just not sure he's the guy in this draft. I think his pro day and workouts will answer a lot of questions about his draft position.

All that said, if Shanny thinks he's the best player available at 10, then I won't complain. I have no reason not to trust this front office yet. But if I'm the hypothetical gm of the skins, I'm taking a long look at every defensive guy available before I make a move at quarterback.

[#98QBKiller]

I def understand your line of thinking but shanny may not be here in 2-3 years. If Rex is our qb the next 2 years then we have no chance of being good and shanny will be on the hotseat by midseason.

His best bet is to bring mcnabb back and say that he truly was evaluating rex last year and decided that donovan is the man for the job. That way he looks better and it won't seem like he threw donovan under the bus this past season. And we'll have a chance to be good the next couple of years

I would definitely be cool with that too. IMO, building the defense through the draft and giving McNabb the reigns is our best course of action. Worst case scenario, we get solid on defense and have a good shot at a good QB next draft and then at least we know what McNabb could do with another season of the system under his belt.

[Conn]

I disagree. I like Gabberts arm and his 'moxy' but he seems to have happy feet. I think he's got a high ceiling, but I'm just not sure he's the guy in this draft. I think his pro day and workouts will answer a lot of questions about his draft position.

All that said, if Shanny thinks he's the best player available at 10, then I won't complain. I have no reason not to trust this front office yet. But if I'm the hypothetical gm of the skins, I'm taking a long look at every defensive guy available before I make a move at quarterback.

Fair enough. I just think that if you like what you see on tape, you don't need to see him do anything other than throw all the NFL throws in a workout, interview well and come off as intelligent and hard-working, and possibly run a 40 for the hell of it. Because he's going to be faster than people think.

But other than that, I don't think there's much wrong with him that you can't teach. He's accurate and he's got a textbook, fast throwing motion. He's got quick feet and can make all the throws (though his deep ball may need some work....its hard to tell with the WR's he finished college with). The system stuff is all about hard work and football intelligence. If he has those qualities, it can be taught.

Oh, and many people to this day say that Peyton has happy feet. That's something the scouts/Shanahan will evaluate I guess.

And on the second paragraph, that's how I feel as well.

[tdigle]

Always good insights, Skininparadise, despite our disagreement.

If we're looking at the "meta"-argument here it's really just about whether some people will give Shanahan leeway/benefit of the doubt over potentially reaching for a QB at 10 since again, correct me if I'm wrong, there is no absolutely nobody resembling a Sam Bradford type QB in this draft.

The fact that Reid is saying it in an annoying editorial style written as a missive to Shanahan is irrelevant in the end - there are QB needy teams across the league who are having this same discussion, in Arizona, San Fran, probably Buffalo, Tennessee, etc. Anyone can see that huge question marks surround this year's crop but if Shanahan, because of his resume, picks a QB, you say let's give it a chance and not criticize.

And my thinking is whatever, I'd criticize a QB pick at 10, despite Shanahan's resume, because that resume now includes the failure of McNabb and Grossman and the dynamics of this year's team. He called McNabb a franchise QB and believed he could take him to new heights...and he happily pointed out the John Elway age comparison to dispel all doubters, or, in other words, flashed his resume again.

He's always had a gambling streak (Lelie, Clarrett, Daryl Gardener, gambling on Al, there's many more) and this wouldn't be different. A QB pick at 10 in a weak QB class over a strong defensive lineman class wreaks of another gamble, but a gamble at the most important position that would set us back years.

This man has said all that needs to be said. Why has this devolved into a bash Jason Reid because he's a columnist thread? Does his status of not working in the NFL preclude him from making valid and cogent points? I'll give his detractors one point: yes, maybe he's wrong to characterize Shanahan as someone who's tempted to take a QB with the 'Skins' number one pick. That being said, I don't see how anyone can argue that none of the QBs in this draft come with a more-than-comfortable amount of risk.

[blindlywewander]

Fair enough. I just think that if you like what you see on tape, you don't need to see him do anything other than throw all the NFL throws in a workout, interview well and come off as intelligent and hard-working, and possibly run a 40 for the hell of it. Because he's going to be faster than people think.

But other than that, I don't think there's much wrong with him that you can't teach. He's accurate and he's got a textbook, fast throwing motion. He's got quick feet and can make all the throws (though his deep ball may need some work....its hard to tell with the WR's he finished college with). The system stuff is all about hard work and football intelligence. If he has those qualities, it can be taught.

Oh, and many people to this day say that Peyton has happy feet. That's something the scouts/Shanahan will evaluate I guess.

And on the second paragraph, that's how I feel as well.

I agree with all of that. I'm in no way against the Gabbert pick, if only for the fact that shanny is picking him. If it was me, I'd wait until next season. But that's me..

I think it'll be interesting if shanny does go qb because typically a rookie qb gives a coach more time. Not always, but often. New quarterback, offensive struggles, etc. Owners see it as the coach playing for the future. But I'm interested to see if shanny will try to build the team from the inside out as many are hoping, or if he'll make a qb his first choice. It may not seem like it is that telling, but I think every pick in this years draft is going to reveal just what kind of ideas this front office has about building a winner.

[ChillSkinzFan84]

I would definitely be cool with that too. IMO, building the defense through the draft and giving McNabb the reigns is our best course of action. Worst case scenario, we get solid on defense and have a good shot at a good QB next draft and then at least we know what McNabb could do with another season of the system under his belt.

Exactly I agree 100%. I just hope Shanny is humble enough to do the right thing

[kubstix]

If we aren't completely sold on a QB with the #10 pick, we should just stick to McNabb/Grossman to get us by. Like others have said, giving Donny5 the reigns is our best bet at doing halfway decent this year. If we trade Donny, then let Rexy run the show. Does anyone honestly believe we are going to be East contenders this year pending football? We have like 10+ holes on our roster that need filling and why gamble on a QB this year when there are sure fire picks at #10 ready to make an immediate impact. Dallas has so much talent this year anyways.

[mistertim]

I disagree. I like Gabberts arm and his 'moxy' but he seems to have happy feet. I think he's got a high ceiling, but I'm just not sure he's the guy in this draft. I think his pro day and workouts will answer a lot of questions about his draft position.

All that said, if Shanny thinks he's the best player available at 10, then I won't complain. I have no reason not to trust this front office yet. But if I'm the hypothetical gm of the skins, I'm taking a long look at every defensive guy available before I make a move at quarterback.

I've noticed that about Gabbert as well (tendency to leave the pocket a bit too early). Though, it may be that he just needs a different direction in his coaching:

http://kbiasportsextra.wordpress.com/2010/09/07/video-gary-pinkel-on-blaine-gabbert/

Coach Gary Pinkel addressed Gabbert’s tendency to leave the pocket, noting that he and coach Dave Yost may “over-coach” that aspect of Gabbert’s game to avoid sacks.

I wonder how much that had an effect on things...if his coaches really were pushing him to do whatever he could to not take sacks, even if that led to him leaving the pocket too early.

[rk3025]

Please do not waste a pick on a QB!

[Conn]

Please do not waste a pick on a QB!

You and Reid agree on that point.

What if a QB available at #10 is at the top of our board, and is viewed as a franchise QB in our scheme? Aka, its not a desperate pick just to grab a rookie signal caller, but a calculated decision to grab a guy we were hoping would fall to us.

In that situation, would you still rather we take a lower-ranked player (on our board, hypothetically) to fill a different hole?