ouvan59 Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Ryan Leaf, Akili Smith, Andre Ware, Jim Drunkenmiller all better.....because once upon a time some sports writter wrote that they were going to be great...fact Yep, and Peter King wrote that Jason Campbell was the best QB in the 2005 draft. By the way, here is Vince Lombardi's quote about Sonny Jurgensen: "Jurgensen is a great quarterback," the coach said without hesitation. "He hangs in there under adverse conditions. He may be the best the league has ever seen. He is the best I have seen." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veteranskinsfan Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 What a shame that King would make a statement like that right now. Ben has had the benefit of being on some good teams with great defense. While Sam Huff played with Sonny, most years the Skins had to out score their opponents to win. Jurgy will always be number one for me. I do think Ben is under-rated by a lot of the national media. Sonny has an offensive mind that he has kept thriving even on the broadcasts. I do not know how bright Ben is now but I know the Hall of Fame got it right when they picked Jurgy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 It's really not that outrageous of a statement. It's not like Sonny hasn't got peers, and Roethlisberger is a damn good passer. He's a winner. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ouvan59 Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 It's really not that outrageous of a statement. It's not like Sonny hasn't got peers, and Roethlisberger is a damn good passer. He's a winner.~Bang My contention isn't that Big Ben is a good QB. My contention is his tone that Sonny wasn't which is clearly implied. I think King likes to lob grenades at the Redskins just to spark furor among our fanbase. I'm sure he laughs at the volume of emails he gets from our fanbase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSHRedskins3ATLBraves3 Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Yea because 2x SB winning QB's with very good career numbers and a killing winning percentage never get elected to the Hall. Throw winning percentage out the window. That is a TEAM stat. As for the individual stats, the passing game has completely evolved over time. We have tons of spread offenses now designed to stretch the field and make life easier on the quarterback. Passing stats now are much easier to accumulate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gortiz Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Watching The Herd on ESPN U and Peter King was asked who would Big Ben most resemble if he was placed in the 60's/70's?King responded Sonny but that Ben was a better QB than Sonny. How is this guy allowed to vote for the HOF? Seriously speaking here ... who currenlty and in the history of the nfl is better than big ben at avoiding/feeling the rush and making plays under pressure? currenlty? no one ... maybe brady. history? ... the list is short, very short. we are also talking two different era's ... like saying who is better, Ted Williams or Albert Pujols? too tough to tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyal2Washington Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Throw winning percentage out the window. That is a TEAM stat.As for the individual stats, the passing game has completely evolved over time. We have tons of spread offenses now designed to stretch the field and make life easier on the quarterback. Passing stats now are much easier to accumulate. A team stat that QB's get credit for according to the NFL. So no we won't be throwing that out the window to help your argument. NFL teams have been running spread type offense's for 20 years now. Roethlisberger doesn't even play in a wide open offense, yet still puts up very good numbers so I'm not sure your point there. if anything it supports the claim that Roethlisberger is a HOF QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gortiz Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 He's a winner.~Bang that seems to be the end all/be all for everyone ... so by that rationale is there even a question who is better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSHRedskins3ATLBraves3 Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 A team stat that QB's get credit for according to the NFL. So no we won't be throwing that out the window to help your argument. NFL teams have been running spread type offense's for 20 years now. Roethlisberger doesn't even play in a wide open offense, yet still puts up very good numbers so I'm not sure your point there. if anything it supports the claim that Roethlisberger is a HOF QB. So you think he should be "credited" for a win in Super Bowl XL where he was a detriment to the team? QB is one of 22 positions on the field. They don't deserve a W-L record. This isn't a pitcher. The Steelers offense does contain spread concepts that our beneficial to a quarterback. Sonny's last full season in the league was in 1970. 41 years ago. Who cares if they have been running spread offenses for 20 years now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 that seems to be the end all/be all for everyone ... so by that rationale is there even a question who is better? Well, that rationale does matter when you're a QB. Ben has had very good passing numbers.. 144 TDs, and a career rating over 92... no matter which way anyone wants to slice it, that's a good QB. He had a bad game when the refs handed him a Super Bowl once, but his second Super Bowl ended with a TD pass he threw into the corner with no time left. He's clutch. I don't think it takes anything away from Sonny to be compared with Ben. I know Peter King always has a needle for Redskins, but I don't see it necessarily as a slight. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Yep, and Peter King wrote that Jason Campbell was the best QB in the 2005 draft.By the way, here is Vince Lombardi's quote about Sonny Jurgensen: "Jurgensen is a great quarterback," the coach said without hesitation. "He hangs in there under adverse conditions. He may be the best the league has ever seen. He is the best I have seen." I think Lombardi's views and opinion have next to no value in this particular discussion...for all we know if Lombardi had lived long enough to see him play he may have agreed with King about Big Ben being even better than Sonny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkabong82 Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Out of curiosity' date=' how would you know?I don't think I've ever seen more than two minutes of Sonny highlights, and you are nine years younger than I am.[/quote'] Highlights, threads on ES discussing Sonny, articles discussing Sonny, various sports books, other fans' comments about Sonny, things I've read his former teammates said about him, etc. I wasn't alive during the Civil War, but having studied it I know a great amount about it. Were you being sincere in your post, or just trotting out the old "you weren't alive for it, how would you know" argument? Because by that same argument few of us Skins fans could accurately call Baugh the greatest Redskin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyal2Washington Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 So you think he should be "credited" for a win in Super Bowl XL where he was a detriment to the team? QB is one of 22 positions on the field. They don't deserve a W-L record. This isn't a pitcher.The Steelers offense does contain spread concepts that our beneficial to a quarterback. Sonny's last full season in the league was in 1970. 41 years ago. Who cares if they have been running spread offenses for 20 years now? You fail to realize that you can't remove statistics to fit your argument. If you don't want to believe or are unable to comprehend that W/L's are an actual NFL stat attributed to the QB position then I can't help you. Have a good day in your reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkabong82 Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 By the way, here is Vince Lombardi's quote about Sonny Jurgensen: "Jurgensen is a great quarterback," the coach said without hesitation. "He hangs in there under adverse conditions. He may be the best the league has ever seen. He is the best I have seen." I think the part about Sonny hangin' in there under adverse conditions is what King used to say Jurgensen reminded him of Ben. Other than that, I don't see many similarities. I think Unitas might be a better comparison to Ben, they both were excellent in 2-minute crunches, both are composed in the pocket, and they're more comparable in the W category than Jurgensen-Ben. As to who's better? King didn't need to say, he was only asked who reminded him of Ben from that era. I can't honestly say who is better, they are from different eras, each has their own advantages and disadvantages over the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polywog999 Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Ben does not deserve to smell Sonny's ****!!!! WTF?!? This thread should be stuffed, mounted and given to Sonny as part of his retirement package. Screw Rothlesburger....THAT DRUNKARD!!! Do the women of the rest of the country a favor and stay the hell up in Pit. Cad! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSHRedskins3ATLBraves3 Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 You fail to realize that you can't remove statistics to fit your argument. If you don't want to believe or are unable to comprehend that W/L's are an actual NFL stat attributed to the QB position then I can't help you. Have a good day in your reality. That's fine if you believe that whatever the NFL says, but I'm a bit more realistic. Quarterbacks have terrible games and hurt their teams, yet still manage to win games all the time. Does this make them better than quarterbacks who throw for 400 yards and 3 TD's in losses? Absolutely not. The only one pushing things to the side to support their argument is you. If you want to judge quarterbacks based on record that's fine because in most cases it correlates with a QB's performance, but it's flawed. There are 22 positions on offense and defense, and that is reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Adama Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 If he was talking about raping young girls, then yes, Roethlisberger is better than Sonny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoolUsernameHere Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 What's the deal? It's his opinion. I've found that it's pretty tough to directly compare players from different eras. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 It seems a bit silly to base Ben's supposedly being better than Sonny on his win percentage. The Steelers generally do just as well without him as they do with him. On the other hand he has made great plays that help his team win some times and he is hard to bring down. He's a good qb, though I don't know that he's one of the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyal2Washington Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 That's fine if you believe that whatever the NFL says, but I'm a bit more realistic.The only one pushing things to the side to support their argument is you. If you want to judge quarterbacks based on record that's fine because in most cases it correlates with a QB's performance, but it's flawed. There are 22 positions on offense and defense, and that is reality. Yea forget that little thing called the NFL who are they anyways to decide to keep track of a QB's wins and losses. Alright QB vs QB Ben beats Sonny in the following categories. Comp%- Ben 63.1 to Sonny 57.1 Avg. Per pass- Ben 8.0 to Sonny 7.6 INT%- Ben 3.1 to Sonny 4.4 Rushing- Ben 874 to Sonny 493 In other words Ben is a much more accurate, slightly deeper passing, incredibly less turnover prone, way more versatile QB that oh by the way has won more then Sonny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewCliche21 Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 You fail to realize that you can't remove statistics to fit your argument. If you don't want to believe or are unable to comprehend that W/L's are an actual NFL stat attributed to the QB position then I can't help you. Have a good day in your reality. Um, false. Statistics are based on validity and reliability. Comparing the two in a vacuum destroys both. That's STAT 101. Yea forget that little thing called the NFL who are they anyways to decide to keep track of a QB's wins and losses. Alright QB vs QB Ben beats Sonny in the following categories. Comp%- Ben 63.1 to Sonny 57.1 Avg. Per pass- Ben 8.0 to Sonny 7.6 INT%- Ben 3.1 to Sonny 4.4 Rushing- Ben 874 to Sonny 493 In other words Ben is a much more accurate, slightly deeper passing, incredibly less turnover prone, way more versatile QB that oh by the way has won more then Sonny. Um, again, no. This is if all other circumstances, including the rules of the game, are the same. Since they're not, and the league has, in the past forty years, moved incredibly towards becoming a high-scoring, passing game, your comparison is worse than awful. The fact that you're talking down to people while parading around an extremely flawed argument is kind of embarrassing, really. Oh well. Goooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Rapist! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beans Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Yea forget that little thing called the NFL who are they anyways to decide to keep track of a QB's wins and losses. Alright QB vs QB Ben beats Sonny in the following categories. Comp%- Ben 63.1 to Sonny 57.1 Avg. Per pass- Ben 8.0 to Sonny 7.6 INT%- Ben 3.1 to Sonny 4.4 Rushing- Ben 874 to Sonny 493 In other words Ben is a much more accurate, slightly deeper passing, incredibly less turnover prone, way more versatile QB that oh by the way has won more then Sonny. Another knuckle dragger.Your argument might actually be relevant if the two actually played in the same era with the same rules. Sonny >>>> Ben. Next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan2k Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Big Ben is my favorite QB in the league. One of the special things about him is that he holds the ball so long in the pocket sometimes it might be a determent but u know that big 50 yd play is coming every game once or twice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyal2Washington Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Um, false. Statistics are based on validity and reliability. Comparing the two in a vacuum destroys both. That's STAT 101.Um, again, no. This is if all other circumstances, including the rules of the game, are the same. Since they're not, and the league has, in the past forty years, moved incredibly towards becoming a high-scoring, passing game, your comparison is worse than awful. The fact that you're talking down to people while parading around an extremely flawed argument is kind of embarrassing, really. Oh well. Goooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Rapist! So the NFL doesn't keep track of W/L's and attribute them to the QB? It's a simple question that I guess even yourself is finding difficult to understand. Try Yes or No if you want to jump in. I only provide stats that would remain relevant to QB's in any generation. Thus saying Ben will throw for more yards and touchdowns in a 4.5 seasons was left off the table as Ben plays in a more pass happy longer season league. Completion percentage and INT ratio however are two of the stats that have remained the same and use basic math to compute. That's all, sorry I don't have anything as cool to end my post with like you. I'll just use this period. ---------- Post added January-18th-2011 at 09:39 PM ---------- Another knuckle dragger.Your argument might actually be relevant if the two actually played in the same era with the same rules. Sonny >>>> Ben. Next. Wow what a great argument. Incredible, simply in depth and very informative. New Cliche must be proud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSHRedskins3ATLBraves3 Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Um, false. Statistics are based on validity and reliability. Comparing the two in a vacuum destroys both. That's STAT 101.Um, again, no. This is if all other circumstances, including the rules of the game, are the same. Since they're not, and the league has, in the past forty years, moved incredibly towards becoming a high-scoring, passing game, your comparison is worse than awful. The fact that you're talking down to people while parading around an extremely flawed argument is kind of embarrassing, really. Oh well. Goooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Rapist! Well said. As I said earlier, those stats aren't comparable. Yea forget that little thing called the NFL who are they anyways to decide to keep track of a QB's wins and losses. Alright QB vs QB Ben beats Sonny in the following categories. Comp%- Ben 63.1 to Sonny 57.1 Avg. Per pass- Ben 8.0 to Sonny 7.6 INT%- Ben 3.1 to Sonny 4.4 Rushing- Ben 874 to Sonny 493 In other words Ben is a much more accurate, slightly deeper passing, incredibly less turnover prone, way more versatile QB that oh by the way has won more then Sonny. Let me ask you this. You continue to ignore the belief that win-loss record is determined by team play and not quarterback play. I will concede the fact that the NFL keeps track of each quarterback's record. Now you can stop dodging the question. How are QB's records substantial when comparing them when they rely on 10 other players on offense, 11 players on defense and another 11 on special teams? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.