ESPN Radio: Big Ben better than Sonny

[Beans]

And to quiet some of the comments about being selective on play watching, I am old enough to have seen Jurgy play on TV even if he was beginning to slide in abilities. He still had the tight, accurate spiral, and would seemingly lift the entire offense on his back, especially during the 2 minute drill.

Not sure how much his abilities were sliding late in his career considering he won the NFL individual passing title in his final season (injuries maybe??)

http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.aspx?PlayerId=111

>> Even at the age of 40 in his final 1974 season, Jurgensen won his third NFL individual passing crown.

Glad people liked the video. I met Sonny at a filming of "Redskins Sidelines" back in the mid/late 1970's and again at Training Camp in 2010. He signed a football for me both times. I don't know where the 1970's ball is, but the other one is in a safe place. He gives a good legible sig and adds HOF '83.

Case closed. Thanks MarkB452!

[Dan T.]

This is a great read for Redskins fans.

It's a Sports Illustrated article from 1969 about Lombardi coming to the Redskins, and it finds that Sonny Jurgensen had been doing some soul searching about his career in the time before Lombardi was hired. He was contemplating retirement, because all the loses - in spite of his gaudy statistics - were damping his competitive fire. The hiring of Lombardi rejuvenated him, and these two men, so different in so many ways, forged an unlikely bond. This passage is especially telling:

It is only the bright side of the Jurgensen moon that you see. There is a dark side. Last winter on a trip to Grand Bahama Island with his wife, the dark side of Sonny Jurgensen lay on the white-sand beach and considered his past and his future. "I saw myself as a man who had applied himself diligently to professional football for 12 years," he said, "and never really got the most out of it. I saw them as frustrating years. I was up to here with records. What did they mean? Nothing. One year I threw 508 passes. One year I threw 32 touchdown passes. But we never won anything.

"It seemed all I could look forward to year after year was drop back and throw, drop back and throw, much of the time in sheer fright, but usually because there was no other way. Not winning, just throwing. I always felt I had my back to the wall. It was always second and eight. We were always disorganized. We were always making up plays in the huddle.

"I can recite to you now what Coach Lombardi says about that. 'You come off the field and the first thing you ask yourself is: Did we win? If you can say yes, then you can think about your individual accomplishments.' And I certainly see the logic in that. I wanted to win so bad. I didn't want to throw 40 touchdown passes a year and lose, I wanted to throw 10 and win."

Jurgensen said when he talked it all out he had, privately, decided to quit this year. "We talked about other goals I could pursue—I had a television show and was in business, and there were other things. They had become as exciting to me as anything else. It had become a drudgery to go to camp, a drudgery because you knew you were going in the wrong direction. I didn't say anything, but I had made up my mind I would quit. Then the word came about Mister Lombardi."

The first thing Jurgensen did when he heard the news was call Paul Hornung long distance. Hornung had been a favorite of Lombardi's at Green Bay, one of his biggest stars, but he was more than that to Jurgensen. He was a kindred spirit. If anything, Hornung had been an even more relentless pleasure-seeker than Jurgensen.

"Paul said, 'Sonny, don't worry about a thing. You'll love him. Forget everything else you've ever heard. You'll love Vince Lombardi. He'll be fair, and it'll be a whole new deal for you. Look, I played for him, didn't I?' "

Jurgensen and Lombardi got together for the first time last February. "We met in his office, and the first thing he said was, 'Sonny, I want just one thing from you. I want you to be yourself. I'm not interested in all the rest, I just want you to be yourself.' Wasn't that a great thing to say to a guy? He was telling me he had heard the stories and that it didn't matter. He knew I wasn't Bart Starr and that I didn't want to be. He was man to man with me from the start.

"I can't tell you how good I felt. I know now I've always wanted to play for a coach like him. I wish it had happened long ago, when I had my career in front of me. I felt—well, I felt I'd been playing under a handicap, a cripple for 12 years. I loved talking football with him. Such knowledge. I've played the game all my life. I'm a student of it, and I can tell right now he's the best."

Read more. It's worth it: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1082650/3/index.htm#ixzz1C3QfNvmU

[Beans]

This is a great read for Redskins fans.

Yes it is. After reading that, it only reaffirms what I already knew to be true...

[fullnelson9999]

Homerism FTW.

Sonny is in the HOF. Ben will likely be in one day as well, if he keeps going at the same pace. King does not hate the Redskins. He has his opinion, and is allowed to express it.

Just because someone dared to say that a quarterback playing in the present is better than a beloved quarterback from the past (and I don't necessarily disagree with King here) does not make him an idiot. Grow up people.

[Beans]

Homerism FTW.

Sonny is in the HOF. Ben will likely be in one day as well, if he keeps going at the same pace. King does not hate the Redskins. He has his opinion, and is allowed to express it.

Just because someone dared to say that a quarterback playing in the present is better than a beloved quarterback from the past (and I don't necessarily disagree with King here) does not make him an idiot. Grow up people.

Yeah, that 35.5 QB rating last Sunday was ****ing stellar! :thumbsup:

[DCranon21]

Yeah, that 35.5 QB rating last Sunday was ****ing stellar! :thumbsup:

And where did he wind up going? Also Aaron R. didn't have a stellar QB rating last Sunday either. Just to point that out.

---------- Post added January-25th-2011 at 06:37 PM ----------

Also i read this whole thread and that's like comparing apples to oranges with these two. As others pointed out, they played in a different era. But with all of Sonny's accomplishments, his peers and writers made him a HoF'er, and if Ben wins next week, you mights of well make a bust for him too. I wouldn't let a writer get your feathers in a ruffle about this.

[ouvan59]

Just because someone dared to say that a quarterback playing in the present is better than a beloved quarterback from the past (and I don't necessarily disagree with King here) does not make him an idiot. Grow up people.

You're absolutely right. That's not what makes King an idiot. He's got so much more to fall back on for that.

But for all we know Ben may end up being better than Sonny when all is said an done but as of right now he's not. Someone else said that Vince Lombardi's quote about Sonny being the best is irrelevant because it was 40 years ago and I say bullhockey. Sonny was the best for at least a time (he broke the single season passing mark twice times) in his era. When Sonny broke the NFL record for passing yards in a season (3,723) he beat the previous record by 700 yards. That record stood for six season until he broke it again. No NFL QB came within 300 yards of his record until 1979 when Dan Fouts finally broke it. Of course, the year before the NFL had gone from 14 to 16 games so Fouts YPG was still less than Sonny's.

Has anybody ever claimed that Ben was the best QB in the league ever? I don't think so. He is a heck of a QB but he's more like Terry Bradshaw, Bob Griese or Bart Starr. All three were very good QBs but none of them were as good as Sonny. But they all won multiple championships because they were on absolutely great, great TEAMS. Sonny was never the QB on a great team. If George Allen didn't have his head up his bum in 1972 he might have been. The sad part was that George didn't realize what he had. Sonny started 13 games in 4 seasons under Allen and was 11-2.

As I've said before I'm not here to bash Roethlisberger. I just think that people don't realize how absolutely brilliant Sonny was because of how poorly the team was run when he was there.

[Gerald362]

I think peter king is often an idiot, but this is not about that. I will ask a question of you. You are at a disadvantage though because of never having seen Sonny play. The question is, which QB do you think would be able to play and be successful in both times. Allow for Sonny being in a different era of training and try to imagine modern training being used for him.

I believe that your answer will be interesting.

Homerism FTW.

Sonny is in the HOF. Ben will likely be in one day as well, if he keeps going at the same pace. King does not hate the Redskins. He has his opinion, and is allowed to express it.

Just because someone dared to say that a quarterback playing in the present is better than a beloved quarterback from the past (and I don't necessarily disagree with King here) does not make him an idiot. Grow up people.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Case closed. Thanks MarkB452!

Why is the case closed? We're debating whether or not it's REASONABLE to think that a top-10 QB from 2000s is better than a top-10 QB from the 1960s. I don't see how you can determine it's NOT just like that because we see great highlights from one of them. Keep in mind, no one is trying to take anything away from either of them or claim that either one isn't great.

[LeesburgSkinFan]

Some fans just believe that players back in the day were better. That's just how it goes.

[Gerald362]

I would guess that is true, however there are as many fans who would believe the converse. I believe that there are players from any time who would be superior players at any time. Sonny is one of those players, IMO. I also believe that Peyton Manning would have been a superior QB in the past as well. Exceptional players are exceptional players regardless of when they played.

Now I do believe that taking a player from the 60's-70's would be at a disadvantage today because of the increased knowledge of nutrition and training techniques, but if you could imagine a way to equalize that, a superior player is a superior player. The best way I can think of to balance it is to look at performance vs contemporaries, and in this discussion, Sonny was at or near the top statistically of his peers, and BR is not. Championships have too many variables for me to automatically crown a player just for being on a championship team.

Some fans just believe that players back in the day were better. That's just how it goes.

[Dan T.]

But for all we know Ben may end up being better than Sonny when all is said an done but as of right now he's not. Someone else said that Vince Lombardi's quote about Sonny being the best is irrelevant because it was 40 years ago and I say bullhockey. Sonny was the best for at least a time (he broke the single season passing mark twice times) in his era. When Sonny broke the NFL record for passing yards in a season (3,723) he beat the previous record by 700 yards. That record stood for six season until he broke it again. No NFL QB came within 300 yards of his record until 1979 when Dan Fouts finally broke it. Of course, the year before the NFL had gone from 14 to 16 games so Fouts YPG was still less than Sonny's.

Has anybody ever claimed that Ben was the best QB in the league ever? I don't think so. He is a heck of a QB but he's more like Terry Bradshaw, Bob Griese or Bart Starr. All three were very good QBs but none of them were as good as Sonny. But they all won multiple championships because they were on absolutely great, great TEAMS. Sonny was never the QB on a great team. If George Allen didn't have his head up his bum in 1972 he might have been. The sad part was that George didn't realize what he had. Sonny started 13 games in 4 seasons under Allen and was 11-2.

As I've said before I'm not here to bash Roethlisberger. I just think that people don't realize how absolutely brilliant Sonny was because of how poorly the team was run when he was there.

Well said, ouvan59, thanks for posting...