ESPN Radio: Big Ben better than Sonny

[Loyal2Washington]

Let me ask you this. You continue to ignore the belief that win-loss record is determined by team play and not quarterback play.

I will concede the fact that the NFL keeps track of each quarterback's record.

Now you can stop dodging the question. How are QB's records substantial when comparing them when they rely on 10 other players on offense, 11 players on defense and another 11 on special teams?

I never said, at any point, what I believe or don't believe as far as how a win-loss record should be calculated into a QB's body of work. I simply stated that Ben had a better winning percentage. You defended your point buy saying the W/L stat should be discredited and I believe the writers will use that stat and will not throw out a stat the NFL keeps.

If you're asking me how I personally feel about the stat then I'll tell you. I don't believe in it. Football is the ultimate team game and to fully credit one player or coach for a victory or loss is ludicrous. I simple believe that given his 2 Super Bowl rings, projection of his career stats and winning percentage, a stat the voters will be able to use if they want, he will be elected into the HOF.

[Skin'Em84]

Maybe they are similar, but Ben's defense won him the first super bowl. Just pointing that out.

[Annonymous Source]

I just want to throw something out there about how absurd it is to compare players between era's. First of all the game has changed. Saying that Ben has a higher completion percentage than Sonny is completely irrelevant because of the way systems are designed now. The game has become much more offense oriented over time, and that will in turn lead to greater offensive stats across the board. At this point, I can think of no offensive records that I would consider "unbreakable", and that is a sure sign that the league is allowing offensive production to become easier.

The second point is that any speculation about how a certain player would perform in a different era is absurd. The difference in level of athleticism between now and 40 years ago in the league is absolutely breathtaking. Consider this. 40 years ago, a player comes out for the Redskins who is 6'6" tall, weighs 250 pounds, can run a 4.76 40 yard dash, and can bench press 375 pounds, oh and they also happen to have a great arm. Now with that skill set, what position on the field COULDNT Rothlisberger play? He is big and strong enough to play any line position back then

DT for the 1970 Redskins Floyd Peters. Three time pro bowler. 6'4" and 254 pounds. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/PeteFl00.htm

OT for the 1970 Redskins, Jim Snowden. 6'3" and 255 pounds http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SnowJi20.htm

He was the same size as the defensive linemen of the era, and probably faster than the linebackers. If he had been playing back then he probably would have looked like Michael Vick.

It is enough to say that Sonny Jurgensen was a great QB for his era, and Rothlesberger is a good QB in this era. Every generation of athletes starts by standing on the shoulders of the last, what was groundbreaking 5 years ago is now the norm, and if you arent improving you are getting weaker. The absolute difference in athletic talent makes any comparison across that gulf of time completely absurd.

And fwiw, Peter King is still an arrogant tool...

[DeaconBlue]

Not a huge King fan, but why can't he have his opinions?.

Im not trying to pick on you TD but that particular statement drives me nuts.. Being entitled to ones opinions does not nor never should protect one from criticism or the choice of opinion they have. Ill never understand why folks seem to think the right should protect from the criticism....

[jaybrant]

Big Ben is my favorite QB in the league. One of the special things about him is that he holds the ball so long in the pocket sometimes it might be a determent but u know that big 50 yd play is coming every game once or twice

Definitely one of my favorites as well.. I have family and friends who are big Steelers fans so I find myself watching a good bit of games.. It seems like when the Steelers are down in the 4th and need a big drive, Ben will most of the time find a way to come through.. Too bad this doesn't happen often when I'm watching a Skins game

[NewCliche21]

So the NFL doesn't keep track of W/L's and attribute them to the QB? It's a simple question that I guess even yourself is finding difficult to understand. Try Yes or No if you want to jump in.

I only provide stats that would remain relevant to QB's in any generation. Thus saying Ben will throw for more yards and touchdowns in a 4.5 seasons was left off the table as Ben plays in a more pass happy longer season league. Completion percentage and INT ratio however are two of the stats that have remained the same and use basic math to compute.

That's all, sorry I don't have anything as cool to end my post with like you. I'll just use this period.

---------- Post added January-18th-2011 at 09:39 PM ----------

Wow what a great argument. Incredible, simply in depth and very informative. New Cliche must be proud.

This isn't hard to understand. You're just choosing not to.

Have fun arguing with yourself.

[CrabR]

Roethlisberger could not carry Sonny's shoes.and they are 13eee

[MustangSteve]

This shouldn't even be compared since Sonny played in the day when defenses could rip your head off and literally ride your receivers down the field. Big Ben plays in a much easier game that protects QB's now days and gives 1 bump to your receiver within 5 yards.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Part of this debate goes back to me not having any idea how to rate NFL players prior to the mid 70s.

Yes, Sonny put up huge numbers. He was also a functional alcoholic with a beer belly in an era where each team had just a handful of black players.

Fans from that era get misty-eyed when talking about Jerry Kramer, who was smaller than Mike Sellers. So...I don't know.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Im not trying to pick on you TD but that particular statement drives me nuts.. Being entitled to ones opinions does not nor never should protect one from criticism or the choice of opinion they have. Ill never understand why folks seem to think the right should protect from the criticism....

You know, you're 100% correct and that's a good point. Let me rephrase what I should have said (and what I am arguing in this thread):

When making a reasonable comment (that a top-5ish QB from the 2000s is better than a top-5ish QB from the 1960s), why should King be blasted as though he compared a horrible player to a great player?

Absolutely people can disagree with him and criticize what they believe is untrue. But nothing he said is UNREASONABLE, so the standard posts of "King knows nothing" or "King is an idiot, he actually didn't vote for Art Monk to get into the HOF once" just don't hold water. If he had said that Jason Campbell is better than Sonny Jurgenson, then by all means...bash away. But, at this point in time, he's comparing a two-time Super Bowl champion QB (I concede that is a team achievement) with better statistics across the board to Sonny. I don't think that's all that insulting to either party and deserves real debate...not bashing.

[Dan T.]

For you people comparing Sonny and Ben's stats and completion percentage... don't forget that when Sonny played, defensive backs were allowed to maul receivers anywhere on the field right up until the ball was in the air. If Sonny played under today's rules, especially with the receivers he had, he would be a 75 to 80% completion passer. He was that good.

[RonArtest15]

Yea forget that little thing called the NFL who are they anyways to decide to keep track of a QB's wins and losses. Alright QB vs QB Ben beats Sonny in the following categories.

Comp%- Ben 63.1 to Sonny 57.1

Avg. Per pass- Ben 8.0 to Sonny 7.6

INT%- Ben 3.1 to Sonny 4.4

Rushing- Ben 874 to Sonny 493

In other words Ben is a much more accurate, slightly deeper passing, incredibly less turnover prone, way more versatile QB that oh by the way has won more then Sonny.

I'm not a fan of Ben at all, but you can't ignore what he's accomplished as a QB. I don't see what's so inaccurate or false about saying Big Ben is the better QB between the two. If you need a QB to make a play or WIN a game for you in the clutch, Big Ben is right up there as one of the best in the NFL (along w. Brady). Shoot...if he win the SB this year, then what are people going to say? All of this before he is even 30 years old....amazing.

[LeesburgSkinFan]

I can't wait for the apoplectic fits of the Big Ben haters in a couple weeks when he wins his third Super Bowl.

[Annonymous Source]

I can't wait for the apoplectic fits of the Big Ben haters in a couple weeks when he wins his third Super Bowl.

Naw man, this year its going to be DA BEARS

[scruffylookin]

I just want to point out that everyone who feels that Sonny's lack of playoffs and his horrible play in his one and only playoff game as a Skin (1974) should not be used as strikes against his legacy and status, to be sure and not use the crutch of lack of playoff success as a way to downgrade other players and their place in team/NFL history....cough.....Clinton Portis....cough. Just saying I've seen the excuse of "lack of signature play", "lack of postseason success", etc used against other players but for some reason when it's used against hallowed Sonny, it's not fair. If it's a criteria to be used for player X, then it should be applied across the board and that includes Sonny.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I just want to point out that everyone who feels that Sonny's lack of playoffs and his horrible play in his one and only playoff game as a Skin (1974) should not be used as strikes against his legacy and status, to be sure and not use the crutch of lack of playoff success as a way to downgrade other players and their place in team/NFL history....cough.....Clinton Portis....cough. Just saying I've seen the excuse of "lack of signature play", "lack of postseason success", etc used against other players but for some reason when it's used against hallowed Sonny, it's not fair. If it's a criteria to be used for player X, then it should be applied across the board and that includes Sonny.

I don't believe in "clutch" so I won't use it against anyone.

I just don't know how to evaluate players from the 50s and 60s except against each other.

I get really puzzled when people here start listing Sammy Baugh as the greatest player ever since I'm not 100 percent convinced that what he played is even really "football" as we know it now.

I think you can start comparing baseball players against each other back to the 30s. Hockey players to the 50s. Basketball players to the 60s. Football players? Maybe the late 60s/early 70s. I don't think any sport evolves as quickly as football.

I can imagine picking up Mickey Mantle, dropping him into the modern world with year-round training and him still being a star today. At the end of the day, he was an athletic 6'0 200 pound switch-hitter with power who could run.

Does anyone really think that Max McGee could play receiver in the modern NFL? Maybe he could gain 50 pounds and be a tight end.

[AllBusiness]

What we need to do to bury all this wondering is have a "QB Challllllennnnnnge" between these two. I know, I know...Sonny is 76, and Big Ben is just shy of 29. But hey, it is what it is.

Brent Musburger could host it, with sideline commentary from Irv Cross, and Tony Saragusa. Just have an old skool/new skool kinda feel to things.

Sonny can throw his passes from a golf cart. While Ben can sit helmetless on a motorcycle.

I bet SOMEBODY would air it! :logo:

[VRIEL1]

Umm, Ben better then Sonny? Different era, different QB's. Out of sheer toughness? I'd take Sonny. Out of being in shape, throwing farther, having more completions, I'd take Ben. I get the feeling though Big Ben wouldn't have lasted in the NFL during Sonny's time. But thats why the protective equipement and rule changes in regards to QB's have come about.

[NoGravity]

NewCliche has a personal vendetta against Ben lol. I honestly think Roethlisberger gives him nightmares when he sleeps with his teddy bear.

[WSHRedskins3ATLBraves3]

I never said, at any point, what I believe or don't believe as far as how a win-loss record should be calculated into a QB's body of work. I simply stated that Ben had a better winning percentage. You defended your point buy saying the W/L stat should be discredited and I believe the writers will use that stat and will not throw out a stat the NFL keeps.

If you're asking me how I personally feel about the stat then I'll tell you. I don't believe in it. Football is the ultimate team game and to fully credit one player or coach for a victory or loss is ludicrous. I simple believe that given his 2 Super Bowl rings, projection of his career stats and winning percentage, a stat the voters will be able to use if they want, he will be elected into the HOF.

Ok I won't continue to argue the same points over and over as to why I think he's not deserving of the Hall of Fame (regardless of whether he will actually get in), but I'm glad to learn that you don't actually use QB record as a determining factor in judging their performance.

[Dan T.]

What we need to do to bury all this wondering is have a "QB Challllllennnnnnge" between these two. I know, I know...Sonny is 76, and Big Ben is just shy of 29. But hey, it is what it is.

Brent Musburger could host it, with sideline commentary from Irv Cross, and Tony Saragusa. Just have an old skool/new skool kinda feel to things.

Sonny can throw his passes from a golf cart. While Ben can sit helmetless on a motorcycle.

I bet SOMEBODY would air it! :logo:

I've told this story before... mid -90's, last year or so that the Skins were at RFK. It's pre-game, Sonny is down on the field from the broadcast booth, watching the team warm up. He's got a trench coat on and is chomping on his everpresent cigar. He wanders over to the drill where the QBs are throwing to wideouts, and actually steps into the drill, making throws. So here's 60 year old Sonny J., in trench coat and puffing a cigar, throwing these beautiful on-target spirals right along-side Shuler and Frerotte. As soon as the crowd starts reacting, he kind of sheepishly steps away, but not after showing he could still sling it every bit as well as the guys in uniform.

So Sonny would hold his own in a QB challenge!!

And LKB he did have a bit of a gut, but what people don't always remember is that he was a hell of an athlete. He was a 3-sport star in high school. At Duke, he played baseball for a short time in addition to football, and turned down an offer to play on the basketball team too.

[Enzo]

"Jurgensen is a great quarterback," the coach said without hesitation. "He hangs in there under adverse conditions. He may be the best the league has ever seen. He is the best I have seen."

Vince Lombardi

I'll take the word of the Greatest Coach ever over just another self proclaimed expert. Who by the way for years thought that the most prolific receiver (Art Monk) of his generation wasn't good enough for the HOF.

[LeesburgSkinFan]

"Jurgensen is a great quarterback," the coach said without hesitation. "He hangs in there under adverse conditions. He may be the best the league has ever seen. He is the best I have seen."

Vince Lombardi

I'll take the word of the Greatest Coach ever over just another self proclaimed expert. Who by the way for years thought that the most prolific receiver (Art Monk) of his generation wasn't good enough for the HOF.

It's also the word of a guy who died in 1970.

[ouvan59]

Yea forget that little thing called the NFL who are they anyways to decide to keep track of a QB's wins and losses. Alright QB vs QB Ben beats Sonny in the following categories.

Comp%- Ben 63.1 to Sonny 57.1

Avg. Per pass- Ben 8.0 to Sonny 7.6

INT%- Ben 3.1 to Sonny 4.4

Rushing- Ben 874 to Sonny 493

In other words Ben is a much more accurate, slightly deeper passing, incredibly less turnover prone, way more versatile QB that oh by the way has won more then Sonny.

You are completely ignoring the fact that they played in different eras.

Let's look at each of your stats individually and compare how they measured to their current eras.

1. Comp % - Ben has never been in the top 3 in completion %. Sonny lead the league twice, finished second twice and third once.

2. Avg yds/Att - Both have led the league once in this category. But considering completion percentages are higher in this era this category is always going to favor the current player.

3. Int % - Ben has only finished in the top 8 once in this category. Sonny led the league once and finished in the top 5 six times. If the QBs had to throw under the same rules now that Sonny had to throw under the Int % would be a different story.

4. Rushing - No argument.

Your head to head comparison is worthless without context. It's this kind of small-minded thinking that kept Art Monk out of the HOF for so long. The game of football has changed so much over the years that stats are worthless without that context.

[Loyal2Washington]

Your head to head comparison is worthless without context. It's this kind of small-minded thinking that kept Art Monk out of the HOF for so long.

Sounds like someone is still a little bitter over that. Take some time to pull yourself together and get back to me. I hate dealing with emotional people, not my cup of tea.