Talk of Systems Obliterates Old Fashioned Coaching

[bulldog]

Perhaps I am too old-school and need to realize the current NFL is more about pre-packaged consumption and pre-fab construction.

But what happened to old fashioned coaching?

What happened to looking at the players you have and putting them in the best possible position to succeed based on THEIR talent? And then making sure they perform?

We just got over 6 months of watching the Redskins make believe that Andre Carter and Albert Haynesworth, the two most talented DL on the team, were not a fit for the mandated 3-4.

These guys are back to playing some hybrid form of their original positions.That accounts for the increased productivity, not any adaptation to the original scheme.

Now the iceberg comes to the surface with another of the Redskins most talented players, Donovan McNabb.

A six time pro bowl player is posting the worst passer rating of his career. He is running for his life more and more in a scheme that calls for five and seven step drops when the OL can't hold the defense past 'one mississippi'.

But instead of making changes as Joe Gibbs did in 1981 to bring his offense into line with the talent in hand, Kyle Shanahan's response is to bench the starting qb with a game on the line.

Imagine if Gibbs had done that to Joe Theismann because he wasn't capable of imitating Dan Fouts.

Mike and Kyle Shanahan were brought here to coach the Redskins not an imaginary team they might like to have.

A fan can look at the Houston offense run by Matt Schaub and see that an offense run by Donovan McNabb is going to look different. They are two different players with different sets of skills.

One would hope the bye week would be a chance to re-evaluate what is not working and make changes.

But from yesterday's game it appears the only changes are going to be punitive.

makes you wonder what the next 8 games hold for this team.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Good thread. I think the main job description of an offensive or defensive coordinator is to call the plays that give your personnel the best chance to be successful. I posted this in the Kyle Shanahan thread so I 100% agree with you. If you have to scrap your "plan" and devise an offense that plays to your team's specific strengths and masks your weaknesses, you do it. That's the job! No any two teams will be built the same, so you have to be able to succeed under different conditions to truly be a great coordinator.

[Commander Adama]

I don't understand where players are given more credence over coaches. He's the coach and made a call. Maybe a call, I do not agree with, but he is still the coach.

[blue collar]

Very good insight. Makes you wonder just how good these coaches are.

[blue collar]

I don't understand where players are given more credence over coaches. He's the coach and made a call. Maybe a call, I do not agree with, but he is still the coach.

For one thing, because these guys make so much money. McNabb's is being paid a kings ransom to win games and now that the game is on the line, you yank him?

[WhoRUSupposed2Be]

Good post Bull.

We'll see what happens during the bye and it's funny that we've played half of our schedule... I'd expect us to look a little different for these remaining eight games.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I don't understand where players are given more credence over coaches. He's the coach and made a call. Maybe a call, I do not agree with, but he is still the coach.

I don't understand what you're saying? The coach's core job is to win with the players he has. So, logically one would think that you would call plays and highlight your personnel strengths and mask your personnel weaknesses. That doesn't mean that you can't attempt to assemble the talent you want to run your preferred schemes, but on a play-by-play or game-by-game basis, you might as well do your best to scheme around your talent.

[TheismannQuote]

It could also be said that the "system" adjustments have been an overlap of failure for the Redskins over the past decade, or more. It is one coach after the other, offensive coordinator-defensive coordinator, all trying to find the pieces that best fit their scheme. We have drafted quarterbacks, traded for runningbacks, signed free-agents, all in an attempt to fill needs in schemes.

Toss out some names? sure... Patrick Ramsey, Jason Campbell, any florida qb product, Clinton Portis, tall/strong WR for west coast offense, Big OLine for power running game, Nimble Oline for zone blocking scheme, OLB, ILB, MLB, ...

The lack of coaching consistency has left this roster with a Smörgåsbord of players that don't really fit one system or the other. I say this after watching a Steelers defense lastnight, though in a loss, could still point to each position on their field as effective drafting/free agents knowing what pieces they need and how they'll fit in. Same for the Ravens.

[DjTj]

But instead of making changes as Joe Gibbs did in 1981 to bring his offense into line with the talent in hand, Kyle Shanahan's response is to bench the starting qb with a game on the line.

A young coach, like Gibbs in '81, can do that. But the Shanahans are more established and you can't expect them to make changes like Gibbs did.

Mike and Kyle Shanahan were brought here to coach the Redskins not an imaginary team they might like to have.

Actually, I think if you asked Dan Snyder, he would say that the Shanahans were brought here to turn the Redskins into an imaginary team that Snyder wants to have.

I think it's a different attitude when you bring in a Super Bowl-winning coach and his son. They are here to install their system. Players who don't fit will be benched or cut. It has been that way since training camp.

[SonnyJdayz]

I think in today's NFL, they get all hung up in the "System" and it puts blinders on them and they are incapable of thinking outside the box. It's like "Okay they have a weakness in this area but what part of our "System" can we use to take advantage of it? ...... and the only time we see a change is when we get a coaching change and it's not always for the good. Remember how Gibbs could go into the locker room at half time, adjust and kit ass..... sigh.....only a memory.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I don't understand where players are given more credence over coaches. He's the coach and made a call. Maybe a call, I do not agree with, but he is still the coach.

Because players score touchdowns, not coaches. Because players make more money than coaches.

Coaches are more important in the NFL than in other leagues (I'm farily certain that I could manage the Yankees to 85 wins for example). But, you win with players.

[Homercles82]

makes you wonder what the next 8 games hold for this team.

4-4 with wins against teams you didn't expect, losses to teams we should have beaten. Highs and lows.

[SirClintonPortis]

A young coach, like Gibbs in '81, can do that. But the Shanahans are more established and you can't expect them to make changes like Gibbs did.

You play to win the games.

You coach to win the ****ing games.

How do you win the games? By best using the talent YOU HAVE HERE, not what you HAD in DENVER OR HOUSTON. Gibbs eventually figured it out. That was his point. Hell, Bill freaking Walsh added a deep plays to his playbook once Jerry Rice gave the 49ers a deep threat.

Actually, I think if you asked Dan Snyder, he would say that the Shanahans were brought here to turn the Redskins into an imaginary team that Snyder wants to have.

I think it's a different attitude when you bring in a Super Bowl-winning coach and his son. They are here to install their system. Players who don't fit will be benched or cut. It has been that way since training camp.

They are still have to coach the players they have now. And they have relented from the square peg into round hole stuff they tried to stuff on AH and AC.

[Riggo-toni]

This is the big issue I have with hiring a "proven winner" versus a hungry up and comer. The "what we do works" mentality...doesn't the second time around. I also think it's why Shanny has ONE playoff win in the last DECADE.

It's also why I believe this team will never be great again under Snyder - despite title changes the structure now under ShanAllen is really the same as it was under Gibbs/Cerrato - Snyder is hiring the big name caoch, giving him personnel control, and throwing in a lackey to do the footwork. At some point one would hope he would wake up and realize why Jack Kent Cooke was such a more successful owner. Cooke hired a real GM with champiionship credentials first, and then let him search for a coach.

[GoDeep81]

A young coach, like Gibbs in '81, can do that. But the Shanahans are more established and you can't expect them to make changes like Gibbs did..

That's a good point.. It's a shame they cant see the irony in tryin to change a 13 year vet, hof QB into someone he's not..

[MusicCitySkin]

I see it as one of the main reasons our quarterback has been a flop. Rather than play to the strengths they know he has, they would rather try to change the way he plays to fit a "system" that worked in Houston where your main playmaker is arguably the best receiver in football. Time to think about the players.

[bigricky3469]

I have to say that I totally agree. When Jason was at his best it was when he was running the hurry up offense and he could call most not all of his plays. But whatever happen to coaches trusting their veteran QB to call plays. Why can't D-Mac just call his own plays. I'm quite sure he has enough grasp of the offense to do this plus he would call plays that he's most comfortable with and I bet he has a better he for the flow of the game then some coach sitting on the sidelines trying to play god.

[redskins55]

I blame free agency! With the ability to sign any player at any time you dont have to take the time to actually coach players up. You simply ship out the players you dont want and bring in the players you THINK will do well.

[Laxpunk2006]

I agree with playing to a team's strengths but when you are looking to build a contender for the long term you have to install a system the coaches are comfortable with. The majority of this roster will probably not be here in another two years. Yes we want to be competitive now but being a contender over the next 5 years is much more important.

[Going Commando]

In the case of Albert Haynesworth, I think people have a lot of misconceptions about the role of defensive linemen in a 3-4 front, including Albert Haynesworth.

There was always room for a player like Haynesworth in a base 3-4 defense. If that wasn't the case, then similar players like Shaun Rogers, Haloti Ngata, and Shaun Ellis wouldn't be going to Probowls in the scheme.

[Warhead36]

I don't know, I think it's important to establish a system, a foundaton, a way to do things. If you're constantly changing that then you'll never build continuity. Fans(myself included)were begging to ditch the 3-4 after we started 1-2 but in recent games we've been much better defensively(not great, but definitely improved and showing signs of being real good in the future with a couple more pieces).

There is a middle ground for sure though. Hopefully our coaches can find it during the bye.

[Rocky21]

Bulldog is one of more knowledgeable football fans on this board. Read and learn.

And this especially applies if your last name is Shanahan.

[scott.sharrer]

It could also be said that the "system" adjustments have been an overlap of failure for the Redskins over the past decade, or more. It is one coach after the other, offensive coordinator-defensive coordinator, all trying to find the pieces that best fit their scheme. We have drafted quarterbacks, traded for runningbacks, signed free-agents, all in an attempt to fill needs in schemes.

Toss out some names? sure... Patrick Ramsey, Jason Campbell, any florida qb product, Clinton Portis, tall/strong WR for west coast offense, Big OLine for power running game, Nimble Oline for zone blocking scheme, OLB, ILB, MLB, ...

The lack of coaching consistency has left this roster with a Smörgåsbord of players that don't really fit one system or the other. I say this after watching a Steelers defense lastnight, though in a loss, could still point to each position on their field as effective drafting/free agents knowing what pieces they need and how they'll fit in. Same for the Ravens.

You are very right. And why the steelers and Ravens were succesful at that.....consistency at coaching/front office. Even after Cowher and Belick left (respectively) their successor's didn't change too much in the way of the teams philosophy or scheme of play. They just tweeked personnel and brought in the players that they felt would do a better job. Why do you think Pittsburgh and Baltimore are constantly, year after year after year, in the top 5 in ALL defensive categories?!?!?!?

[herb mul-key]

Donavan has not been playing well...he is not above benching..F Ryan Clark

[Darth Tater]

Perhaps I am too old-school and need to realize the current NFL is more about pre-packaged consumption and pre-fab construction.

But what happened to old fashioned coaching?

What happened to looking at the players you have and putting them in the best possible position to succeed based on THEIR talent? And then making sure they perform?

We just got over 6 months of watching the Redskins make believe that Andre Carter and Albert Haynesworth, the two most talented DL on the team, were not a fit for the mandated 3-4.

These guys are back to playing some hybrid form of their original positions.That accounts for the increased productivity, not any adaptation to the original scheme.

Now the iceberg comes to the surface with another of the Redskins most talented players, Donovan McNabb.

A six time pro bowl player is posting the worst passer rating of his career. He is running for his life more and more in a scheme that calls for five and seven step drops when the OL can't hold the defense past 'one mississippi'.

But instead of making changes as Joe Gibbs did in 1981 to bring his offense into line with the talent in hand, Kyle Shanahan's response is to bench the starting qb with a game on the line.

Imagine if Gibbs had done that to Joe Theismann because he wasn't capable of imitating Dan Fouts.

Mike and Kyle Shanahan were brought here to coach the Redskins not an imaginary team they might like to have.

A fan can look at the Houston offense run by Matt Schaub and see that an offense run by Donovan McNabb is going to look different. They are two different players with different sets of skills.

One would hope the bye week would be a chance to re-evaluate what is not working and make changes.

But from yesterday's game it appears the only changes are going to be punitive.

makes you wonder what the next 8 games hold for this team.

Not sure what you mean by saying old-fashioned coaching and systems aren't the same. The concept of systems has been at the heart of offensive coaching since at least 1948.