The Official Washington Basketball Thread: Wizards, Mystics etc

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Remember back when Snyder was the most hated man in town, the Lerners weren't far behind, and Ted Leonsis was a local god? My how things change

[nuposse87]

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/46606/wizards-hit-a-wall-target-perimeter-help

I'd like to see those numbers in April+March. I feel like that is a better gauge of where the team is at then the monstrosity we had to deal with in the beginning of the season.

[JMS]

If those are the top-5 rankings, trading back if we don't land beal (according to your source) makes no sense...MKG WILL be there at #3.

How many front court players can you take on this team. We already know how to develop great teams with 3 power forwards 2 never getting on the floor for us becoming all stars elsewhere..

Gett a shooting guard we need shooting baddly..

If not get drummond because if he hits he's a potential game changer we could ride into the championship... nobody else in this draft available at 3 goes beyond competent long term starter.

Draft for need, if you can't do that get an athletic big guy.

[RonArtest15]

How many front court players can you take on this team. We already know how to develop great teams with 3 power forwards 2 never getting on the floor for us becoming all stars elsewhere..

Gett a shooting guard we need shooting baddly..

If not get drummond because if he hits he's a potential game changer we could ride into the championship... nobody else in this draft available at 3 goes beyond competent long term starter.

Draft for need, if you can't do that get an athletic big guy.

If Beal is off the board, take the BPA. Period. That should come between MKG/T-Rob. Option 1 being MKG, of course.

A SG can be found in round 2. Doron Lamb will be there.

[JMS]

this is true, at the least the current snyder isn't a cheap ****. Snyder seems to be more about winning then leonsis. Ted just seems to want to put out a product that entices but anyone with a brain knows cannot possibly contend for anything. Draft times always make me disgusted as a wizards fan, I can't help but be terrified in knowing that we will find a way to **** things up.

Well no doubt Snyder's model has won in the NBA. Go out and buy the biggest named free agents you can find... I don't think Leonsis is cheap though. Rather I think he wants to build in the draft which is also a proven way to win. The argument can be made we will never land a high priced free agent because we suck, have always sucked, and no body can ever remember a time we didn't suck.. Why would Lebron come here? Not for money... He really could get money anywhere...

thus draft is our best option... get competent even good, then try to attract a free agent....

[Going Commando]

The fact they have MKG over Beal should lead them to draft MKG if Beal is taken. Pau Gasol is going to be worthless to this team. He is lucky that he has had the opportunity to play next to all stars in LA, if anyone thinks he will have similarly efficient production here they are smoking some serious ish.

Beal IMO still has the best allstar ability after Davis. Barnes' best case scenario...is like danny granger minus that D (Granger actually plays some decent defense).

Pau has serious skills. He's a good ball handler and terrific scorer with a ton of tools.

I think Pau helps the guys around him more than they help him. Legit seven footers that play as hard as him and have as many skills as him are extremely rare. The West is loaded with PFs, he'd be an All Star PF in the East. And for the two seasons we'd have him, him + Nene and Wall is a surefire playoff core. Probably a mid seed in the East.

I actually think Harrison can be a quality, cognizant defender in time. I think he can defend 4s and 5s in the NBA. He's stacked and has good length and quickness. I think only Davis and MKG are more versatile and cognizant front court defenders. You won't see Drummond covering 3s and stretch 4s and I think it might be tough for Rob to do so.

The major difference between Granger and Barnes to me is the ball handling ability. Barnes is a bad ball handler. He can handle it well enough to finish in transition but he can't create from the perimeter. Granger is a good ball handler and can create from anywhere on the court.

Granger is also a SF/PF hybrid, probably more so than Barnes. He's bigger than Barnes is and probably stronger. It looks like Barnes is getting projected mainly as a strict perimeter only player. I don't understand it personally, but that's what the talk of playing him at SG says to me. Personally though, I think he's got some natural PF skills.

If almost Danny Granger is what we get out of picking Barnes, that's a damn good pick. I'd love to have a wing like that. He could fill a huge need.

I would absolutely be more on board with taking Barnes if MKG wasn't also in this class. MKG's ball handling, motor, rebounding, and defending are so ahead of Barnes that it's really hard to justify Barnes over MKG in my mind. If a basketball player does 7 out of 10 things better than the other guy who does 3 of 10 better, but those three things are skills you currently need more than the other 7, who do you take?

Barnes > MKG: perimeter shooting, mid range creation, scoring from the FT line

MKG > Barnes: finishing at the rim, rebounding, defending the post, defending the perimeter, ball handling, passing, hustling & being a spark plug

What do you do?

Although I doubt we end up seriously regretting either pick. Both of these guys look like they are going to be terrific NBA players. I won't cry if we pick Barnes and MKG goes on to be an All Star when Barnes becomes a productive and important part of our team.

[Thinking Skins]

Well no doubt Snyder's model has won in the NBA. Go out and buy the biggest named free agents you can find... I don't think Leonsis is cheap though. Rather I think he wants to build in the draft which is also a proven way to win. The argument can be made we will never land a high priced free agent because we suck, have always sucked, and no body can ever remember a time we didn't suck.. Why would Lebron come here? Not for money... He really could get money anywhere...

thus draft is our best option... get competent even good, then try to attract a free agent....

The problem with the Snyder model is that there are only so many superstars in the NBA. I mean, we know every year that the finals will be between Lebron, Kobe, Garnett, Durant, Rose, etc. Dallas making it last year wasn't supposed to happen and is the exception rather than the rule (or you could put Dirk in the above mentioned category). The rest of the teams are competing for 3rd place. I can see Ted's strategy just like Snyder's strategy ultimately was to draft a QB because the ones we're getting via FA just were mediocre. We've got to either develop a superstar or make one want to come here (ala Lebron in Miami or Carmelo in NY). In the past we've traded for guys like Webber and Gilbert (under Abe), but for their own reasons they didn't pan out here. And both wound up messing us up badly because both times we misplayed our overwilling to spend hands. Nah, lets build through the draft with veteran leadership and a foundation of competition.

If we could follow a model, I'd rather it be the Spurs. I honestly hope that we can be compared to them THIS year, but I know that's a pipe dream.

[No Excuses]

I'd like to see those numbers in April+March. I feel like that is a better gauge of where the team is at then the monstrosity we had to deal with in the beginning of the season.

The improvements in March and April were made on the defensive end. After the Nene trade, we ranked out as the 7th best defensive team in the league. With Nene on the floor, we were the best defense in the league.

They were still putrid at shooting and scoring. Good thing we added Ariza and Okafor to solve that issue.

[Dave25]

If the Cavs do trade up for Beal if I'm the Wizards I would look to trade back to maybe the Blazers who move up for Drummond? And pickup Barnes and Lamb/Rivers/Ross that would be a very solid draft. All hypothetical, this draft really depends on what Houston does with all those 1rst rounders that's really going to shape the draft.

[JMS]

If Beal is off the board, take the BPA. Period. That should come between MKG/T-Rob. Option 1 being MKG, of course.

A SG can be found in round 2. Doron Lamb will be there.

In football I agree wth that philosophy, not in the nba when you are taking 18 yo kids....

remember when we had Juwan Howard, Ben Wallace, Rasheed Wallace, Cheney, on the team ? Coarse we had very little else except depth at F. Think you could throw in Webber in there too.

Don't stack up 3-4 deep at a position. first get 5 good starters.. then add depth.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

If we could follow a model, I'd rather it be the Spurs. I honestly hope that we can be compared to them THIS year, but I know that's a pipe dream.

People talk about following the Spurs model constantly but there's just one problem with that: The Spurs were fortunate enough to draft two HOFers. (Robinson and Duncan).

[Going Commando]

If the Cavs do trade up for Beal if I'm the Wizards I would look to trade back to maybe the Blazers who move up for Drummond? And pickup Barnes and Lamb/Rivers/Ross that would be a very solid draft. All hypothetical, this draft really depends on what Houston does with all those 1rst rounders that's really going to shape the draft.

They're all mid to late first rounders. They won't be too much of a factor.

If Beal goes second, we could just take MKG or we could just take Drummond. I think those guys could really change our fortunes too.

If we could move down to 6 and 11, I like Barnes a lot in that range. At 11 I'd prefer Sullinger or Lamb. Both would provide a big scoring punch.

[JMS]

The problem with the Snyder model is that there are only so many superstars in the NBA. I mean, we know every year that the finals will be between Lebron, Kobe, Garnett, Durant, Rose, etc. Dallas making it last year wasn't supposed to happen and is the exception rather than the rule (or you could put Dirk in the above mentioned category). The rest of the teams are competing for 3rd place. I can see Ted's strategy just like Snyder's strategy ultimately was to draft a QB because the ones we're getting via FA just were mediocre. We've got to either develop a superstar or make one want to come here (ala Lebron in Miami or Carmelo in NY). In the past we've traded for guys like Webber and Gilbert (under Abe), but for their own reasons they didn't pan out here. And both wound up messing us up badly because both times we misplayed our overwilling to spend hands. Nah, lets build through the draft with veteran leadership and a foundation of competition.

That's really how the Skins of the 80's were assembled by Bethard.

If we could follow a model, I'd rather it be the Spurs. I honestly hope that we can be compared to them THIS year, but I know that's a pipe dream.

Yeah that would mean we get a Tim Duncan type player with the #3 overall. Coarse Michael Jordan went #3 in 1984, he would be good too.

[Going Commando]

People talk about following the Spurs model constantly but there's just one problem with that: The Spurs were fortunate enough to draft two HOFers. (Robinson and Duncan).

Yeah, but the Spurs have made a mountain of good moves from unlikely sources since then. They're the only team that seems to consistently score with late first round draft picks and they are incredible with player development.

The reason the Spurs model is so hard to follow is because few teams are competent enough to recreate what they do.

[Dave25]

They're all mid to late first rounders. They won't be too much of a factor.

If Beal goes second, we could just take MKG or we could just take Drummond. I think those guys could really change our fortunes too.

If we could move down to 6 and 11, I like Barnes a lot in that range. At 11 I'd prefer Sullinger or Lamb. Both would provide a big scoring punch.

I was referring to the reports that Houston is now looking to move into top 10 with those picks maybe to trade for Dwight Howard or Josh Smith, they now have 3 mid first rounders.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

Yeah, but the Spurs have made a mountain of good moves from unlikely sources since then. They're the only team that seems to consistently score with late first round draft picks and they are incredible with player development.

The reason the Spurs model is so hard to follow is because few teams are competent enough to recreate what they do.

I agree with you but all the great moves the Spurs have made are still based off of having those HOFers.

Edited June 26, 2012 by BRAVEONAWARPATH

[nuposse87]

Pau has serious skills. He's a good ball handler and terrific scorer with a ton of tools.

Ball handler? I don't care about 7 footers who are most effective in the post. The fact is with him our team trades would have to be made, as there would be far too many big men

I think Pau helps the guys around him more than they help him. Legit seven footers that play as hard as him and have as many skills as him are extremely rare. The West is loaded with PFs, he'd be an All Star PF in the East. And for the two seasons we'd have him, him + Nene and Wall is a surefire playoff core. Probably a mid seed in the East.

This is nonsense for the wizards, because the guys that the wizards have, currently, cannot shoot. Everyone loses with us trading for Pau. Teams double him, and his old age he isn't overcoming being the focal point of opposing team's defenses.

I actually think Harrison can be a quality, cognizant defender in time. I think he can defend 4s and 5s in the NBA. He's stacked and has good length and quickness. I think only Davis and MKG are more versatile and cognizant front court defenders. You won't see Drummond covering 3s and stretch 4s and I think it might be tough for Rob to do so.

Meh, Harrison could be OK on defense, my biggest issue with barnes is his demeanor and intensity. If you watch his highlight vids you have reason to be optimistic but the guy didn't improve at all between his rookie and sophmore year. There seems to be no fire in him. Now if he were to discover that, I'd be dead wrong about him. Time will tell.

The major difference between Granger and Barnes to me is the ball handling ability. Barnes is a bad ball handler. He can handle it well enough to finish in transition but he can't create from the perimeter. Granger is a good ball handler and can create from anywhere on the court.

I never thought of Granger as a good ball handler to be honest. Barnes isn't awful either with his handles. He's ok but nothing to write home about.

Granger is also a SF/PF hybrid, probably more so than Barnes. He's bigger than Barnes is and probably stronger. It looks like Barnes is getting projected mainly as a strict perimeter only player. I don't understand it personally, but that's what the talk of playing him at SG says to me. Personally though, I think he's got some natural PF skills.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Danny-Granger-86/

Granger is nearly exactly the same build minus the paper athletic scores. Benches about the same too, but at least granger plays with a chip on his shoulder. I think Barnes will be better in attacking the rim than granger, for what it is worth, Granger's first two years weren't as good as barnes'.

If almost Danny Granger is what we get out of picking Barnes, that's a damn good pick. I'd love to have a wing like that. He could fill a huge need.

I wouldn't mind it if it was like the 4-6 pick. I just think Beal has better potential, as well as MKG. If we trade back and take barnes, I won't wine and piss and moan so long as we gain something else in the process.

I would absolutely be more on board with taking Barnes if MKG wasn't also in this class. MKG's ball handling, motor, rebounding, and defending are so ahead of Barnes that it's really hard to justify Barnes over MKG in my mind. If a basketball player does 7 out of 10 things better than the other guy who does 3 of 10 better, but those three things are skills you currently need more than the other 7, who do you take?

You take MKG, MKG can still develop his shortcomings. It is hard to teach a player intensity. Marvin Williams is what scares me from Barnes. Similar tools, athletic, decent looking shot, just didn't give a damn to be better than top 12 for a SF (for a 2nd overall pick thats kind of disappointing). The comical irony in that is I'd swap ariza for williams every day of the week

Barnes > MKG: perimeter shooting, mid range creation, scoring from the FT line

MKG > Barnes: finishing at the rim, rebounding, defending the post, defending the perimeter, ball handling, passing, hustling & being a spark plug

What do you do?

When you are building, you take potential. You can teach MKG how to shoot. Unless you plan to hire a shrink and light a spark under Barnes' ass

Although I doubt we end up seriously regretting either pick. Both of these guys look like they are going to be terrific NBA players. I won't cry if we pick Barnes and MKG goes on to be an All Star when Barnes becomes a productive and important part of our team.

I honestly think MKG has superstar talent. He's 6'7 230, with room to add on his frame. He could be a slashing forward and grow into 6'8 240lbs with high BBIQ. If he had slightly better handles we could have a slightly poor man's young LBJ. Sigh... It needs to be thursday....

[Going Commando]

I was referring to the reports that Houston is now looking to move into top 10 with those picks maybe to trade for Dwight Howard or Josh Smith, they now have 3 mid first rounders.

That might get them Josh Smith. I have a hard time seeing them get a high enough pick out of somebody to build a package for Dwight Howard though. It'll take one of the top five guys in this class to build a deal around for Dwight IMO.

Would anyone here trade 3 for all of their picks? I don't think I would.

[nuposse87]

That might get them Josh Smith. I have a hard time seeing them get a high enough pick out of somebody to build a package for Dwight Howard though. It'll take one of the top five guys in this class to build a deal around for Dwight IMO.

Would anyone here trade 3 for all of their picks? I don't think I would.

I'd consider it, if you could score Ross+PJ III+ T. Jones, I'd call that a solid first round. I'd only do it if Beal was off the board and we really weren't that high on MKG for some odd reason.

[Going Commando]

nuposse re: Barnes & Granger,

Granger is like 240 and thick. Barnes is big at 228, but there is still an important amount of bulk differentiating them. Granger has played PF at a pretty high level in the NBA, and he even played PF for our World Championship team in 2010. Better rebounder and stronger player than Barnes. However Barnes is still very young. He's already such a muscular player, he's much stronger and more toned than MKG even though he's only maybe a year and a half older and they're basically the same size. MKG plays faster though, gears up a lot faster, and is generally much more explosive. Barnes is a graceful athlete a la James Worthy. MKG is an explosive athlete a la Josh Smith or Igoudala or Kevin Garnett.

The other side is Granger is also very natural creating off his dribble. He's basically got a good command of scoring tools from every part of the floor. Barnes won't be getting to the rim from the perimeter off the dribble any time soon. When he tries to get creative, his handles become pretty comical after two dribbles. Mid range he's masterful with the ball in his hands. Down the court he's an impressive finisher with one man to beat in transition. But with the defense set up, he just has no comfort level in half court dribble penetration.

Re: Pau, I think you're underestimating him. We have a lot of bigs, but not a single one of them are close to as good as Pau. Nene + Pau would be one of the best front courts in the game. Not only that, we'd be trading off some of our current front court players to get Pau, which would clear the deck for him. Either Okafor or Nene would pretty much be a necessity in any trade for Pau because of his contract.

Pau is also a skill player. He's going to be highly effective for a long time. He also doesn't have to be ball dominant to be effective, just like Nene. I wouldn't worry about his age. Our problem is his contract. He's only got two years on it and at this point, it's really hard to see someone like him signing an extension to stay here.

We also have John Wall at point. He's a factor in all of this. He can score nearly at will from the perimeter and create opportunities for Pau in the same way Kobe Bryant did. It's not like Kobe is a particularly good shooter.

Getting an All Star big trumps the perimeter player just about every time. We can fill out the wings with replacement caliber shooters like Cartier Martin and still easily make the playoffs with a potential All Star big combo of Nene & Pau and Wall running point. From a basketball perspective, Pau would massive upgrade our team.

The problem is from a team building perspective as I see it. Pau is not sustainable growth. He'd be gone in 2 years and we're not ready to seriously contend in that window. We'd blow what would be our last remaining high lotto pick in that time for something that wouldn't last long enough for us to grow as an organization.

One thing I will say though, the needs of the current roster need to be accounted for in the decisions we make because our enormous investment in John Wall is in danger of becoming stagnant. We need to make moves that facilitate Wall's development into a Superstar first and foremost. That means finding good shooters to be his running mates in both the short and long term. Third year means it's getting awful close to fish or cut bait time for Wall.

The whole point of having an elite PG is to take most of the burden of offensive creation off of positions 2-5. We will always be a team that relies heavily on spot up shooting because Wall is so damn good at creating opportunities for those around him. We need guys who can convert on those opportunities, much more than we need guys who can put the ball on the floor and work magic. Wall isn't a spot up shooting point like Kyrie. He is much less potent working off ball unless its running cuts to the basket for finishes at the rim. Plus there isn't a soul in this class that comes close to being as dangerous a threat to get to the rack as John is.

It's entirely possible that Harrison Barnes is a better Washington Wizard than Michael Kidd Gilchrist--even if MKG is a potential All Star for some other team. The guys have to fit best within our team structure long term.

[Thinking Skins]

Yeah, but the Spurs have made a mountain of good moves from unlikely sources since then. They're the only team that seems to consistently score with late first round draft picks and they are incredible with player development.

The reason the Spurs model is so hard to follow is because few teams are competent enough to recreate what they do.

This is exactly how I feel. As great as he is Duncan alone won't get it done. He needs a team around him, and what they have in San Antonio is a farm system that others could learn a lot from. I mean, I knew when they got Leonard that he was set. They get intelligent players without the attitude problems, kinda the opposite of what we had here. Hopefully the guys we have now present something similar to that. I look at them (in years past), as well as Chicago and think that having scorers isn't as big if we can play solid defense. I know scorers will be important in the playoffs, but if we can be a smart team that plays good defense, then I'd be happy with winning games 85-80.

I remember under Eddie Jordan, we had a record of like .750 when we held teams under 90.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

I know scorers will be important in the playoffs, but if we can be a smart team that plays good defense, then I'd be happy with winning games 85-80.

Not a big fan of that style of ball.

It forces you to play almost perfect imo.

Kinda reminds me of Joe Gibbs 2.0.

See the 2011-2012 Washington Capitals as an example.

Edited June 26, 2012 by BRAVEONAWARPATH

[No Excuses]

I remember under Eddie Jordan, we had a record of like .750 when we held teams under 90.

That might have happened for a grand total of 5 times lol. EJ coached Wizards set the record for the most threes given up in NBA history in a single season.

"They made shats".

[Thinking Skins]

Not a big fan of that style of ball.

It forces you to play almost perfect imo.

Kinda reminds me of Joe Gibbs 2.0.

See the 2011-2012 Washington Capitals as an example.

I'm a fan of winning. See the Run and Shoot offense as the other end of the spectrum....or the 2005 Wizards. Or see Pittsburgh/Baltimore as teams that have won the other way.

I'm not saying I favor either way, just that we may be forced into playing this style this year and its not necessarily a losing style of play.

[Warhead36]

I'd actually be okay with the Wiz playing "HunterHockey" style basketball because it would at least get us to a level of competency we haven't had in a few years. I hated it with the Caps because we were way better then that style had us playing but with the Wiz, it would probably maximize our talent.