The Official Washington Basketball Thread: Wizards, Mystics etc

[StillUnknown]

Here's a hypothetical from the Wizards post-game show: Would you absolutely rule out trading John Wall for a very high lottery pick?

I would rule it out because it creates a hole for us at PG. You only make that move if you have a plan to bring in something competent at pg in return. Just gazing around, there is anything better out there to be had.

Too soon to give up on Wall, got to see how he responds to a real coach. If we're still asking these same questions of Wall next season, I'd reconsider.

Edited April 15, 2012 by StillUnknown

[Going Commando]

Here's a hypothetical from the Wizards post-game show: Would you absolutely rule out trading John Wall for a very high lottery pick?

I asked something like this yesterday. I'd only (briefly) consider it for the #1 pick, assuming we didn't win it ourselves. Also assuming Davis finally declares.

But I wouldn't do it in the end. Too hard to find a PG worth it. We won't find one as special as Wall for a while. And building around Wall + Vesely + high draft pick is better than building around Davis + Vesely + same high draft pick.

[Hersh]

Here's a hypothetical from the Wizards post-game show: Would you absolutely rule out trading John Wall for a very high lottery pick?

I would definitely do it for the number one pick if Davis comes out because dominant point guards, who are the best player on their team, generally don't win NBA championships. Not that a PG can't play a huge role, but big men and shooting guards are more important than PGs.

[Going Commando]

I would definitely do it for the number one pick if Davis comes out because dominant point guards, who are the best player on their team, generally don't win NBA championships. Not that a PG can't play a huge role, but big men and shooting guards are more important than PGs.

Definitely not true for shooting guards. PG is arguably the most individually important position on the floor.

Today, what teams are good without good PG play? Only Miami really, and they have two top five players who both run the point..

---------- Post added April-15th-2012 at 10:09 AM ----------

Vesely is farther ahead than Booker was at this point last year IMO. He doesn't score as well, but as a defender and rebounder, he's better. That's encouraging to me. He's going to be good player.

[Warhead36]

I don't see how trading Wall makes us better at all. We'd have NO PG and while Davis is a beast, frontcourt is actually looking pretty solid right now with Nene/Seraphin/Booker. Yeah Davis will be a stud but I still think Wall will be, so overall our team would be worse if Davis were to replace Wall.

I think we have to keep building around Wall. We need quality shooters at the 2 and 3. I also think Wall will make a big jump next year with a brand new coaching staff and full offseason to improve.

[Going Commando]

I don't see how trading Wall makes us better at all. We'd have NO PG and while Davis is a beast, frontcourt is actually looking pretty solid right now with Nene/Seraphin/Booker. Yeah Davis will be a stud but I still think Wall will be, so overall our team would be worse if Davis were to replace Wall.

I think we have to keep building around Wall. We need quality shooters at the 2 and 3. I also think Wall will make a big jump next year with a brand new coaching staff and full offseason to improve.

That's my point too. In a vacuum, you consider this deal more but with what we've already got on the roster, swapping out a PG for even a slightly better PF makes the total roster weaker.

There is also TRob and Sully and Drummond in this class, one of which *should* be available when we pick. There won't be a PG as good a prospect as Wall for a while.

[SiCkSoULjA]

Building around vessly are you serious? That sounds rediculous and just plain silly. Vessly is a solid player that his whole game revolves around hussling. He had numerous years in the pros over in Europe and may have the worst shot in the league. I am not saying he needs too be a good scorer but in some way you have too keep the defense honest and he doesn't, him on offense with Wall and more so Davis will struggle. Booker is way ahead of him, I am not saying he is worthless because he's a solid guy coming off the bench.

This team sucks so bad that I don't see any light at the end of the tunnel we are YEARS from being competive. We need the #1 pick draft Davis aNd we need another #1 pick or high first roind talent and some good free agent signings too turn it around.

Wall is very disappointing he's not a leader and he's not a person that can put the game on there shoulders and lead the team too victories. We need too pray that he some how is able too turn the page.

[StillUnknown]

Vesely is farther ahead than Booker was at this point last year IMO. He doesn't score as well, but as a defender and rebounder, he's better. That's encouraging to me. He's going to be good player.

Despite my objections to drafting him, and the fact that there is about a 50/50 chance his jumpshot will not even hit the rim, I like the guy. He shows promise in every area but scoring.

That said, unless he figures out a way to score besides dunking, he's going to end up being a rotational/energy guy off the bench.

[Hersh]

Definitely not true for shooting guards. PG is arguably the most individually important position on the floor.

Today, what teams are good without good PG play? Only Miami really, and they have two top five players who both run the point.

Look at the past 20 NBA championships and list the key players to each. How many key players were PGs compared to shooting guards? In fact, how many teams in which the point guard was the best player on that team have won an NBA title.

Maybe Wall will be a superstar, but he might also leave in a couple of years. If given the chance to trade straight up Wall for Davis, I would take Davis.

---------- Post added April-15th-2012 at 04:24 PM ----------

Today, what teams are good without good PG play? Only Miami really, and they have two top five players who both run the point.

Teams in the Eastern conference playoffs without an Elite PG: Miami, Indiana, Atlanta, Orlando, New York, Philadelpia

Teams in the West playoffs without an Elite PG: Lakers, Memphis, Dallas, Denver and Houston (Denver and Houston have good point guards to be sure, but certainly not elite)

Edited April 15, 2012 by Hersh

[Warhead36]

If Vesley were a 2nd rounder or even mid to late 1st, he would have been an awesome pick. But he was taken 6th overall. That's a premium pick, a pick like that shouldn't get us a guy that'll take years to maybe develop into a rotation player.

[RonArtest15]

If Vesley were a 2nd rounder or even mid to late 1st, he would have been an awesome pick. But he was taken 6th overall. That's a premium pick, a pick like that shouldn't get us a guy that'll take years to maybe develop into a rotation player.

Makes you wonder how Kawhi Leonard would have looked as the 6th overall pick instead of Vesely....

[Going Commando]

If Vesley were a 2nd rounder or even mid to late 1st, he would have been an awesome pick. But he was taken 6th overall. That's a premium pick, a pick like that shouldn't get us a guy that'll take years to maybe develop into a rotation player.

Vesely is already a good rotation player. He's certainly got the tools to become a good starting PF. I think people are being ridiculous in their expectations for him early on. He's blown away every expectation I had for him going into the year. He's our best defensive player already, and is a legitimately good defender and rebounder right now. Last year's class blew. Vesely was a fine pick at six. He's going to work out and be a good player.

[Destino]

The combination that wins championships tends to be an elite SG/SF and an elite PF/C. PG play needs to be good not great. It's easier for defenses to disrupt an offense when the best player runs the point, the simple act of having the ball all the time gives them more opportunities.

[Going Commando]

Despite my objections to drafting him, and the fact that there is about a 50/50 chance his jumpshot will not even hit the rim, I like the guy. He shows promise in every area but scoring.

That said, unless he figures out a way to score besides dunking, he's going to end up being a rotational/energy guy off the bench.

Almost any NBA player can learn to spot up and shoot. Vesely isn't muscle bound (guys who tend to struggle shooting FTs and shooting from range tend to be very heavily muschled). He'll get good enough on offense and get his points and put out some Serge Ibaka like offense at PF in time--that's fine. Booker is a better player today, but I'd feel comfortable starting Vesely at PF next season if we didn't have Booker in front.

[No Excuses]

Vesely is already a good rotation player. He's certainly got the tools to become a good starting PF. I think people are being ridiculous in their expectations for him early on. He's blown away every expectation I had for him going into the year. He's our best defensive player already, and is a legitimately good defender and rebounder right now. Last year's class blew. Vesely was a fine pick at six. He's going to work out and be a good player.

Talk about overrating someone.

He's not a good rotation player. He's not our best defensive player. He's not a legitimately good defender and he's an average rebounder.

[RonArtest15]

Talk about overrating someone.

He's not a good rotation player. He's not our best defensive player. He's not a legitimately good defender and he's an average rebounder.

I know, right?

Vesely was one of the oldest players drafted in round 1 - 6th pick at that. He also has PRO experience. But yea...Wizards fans should have tempered their expectations for him.

I'll give him this...he's played well in April. Hopefully he can keep the momentum going into the off-season...work on his jumper, and be a guy who can fill the stat-sheet going forward.

[Going Commando]

The combination that wins championships tends to be an elite SG/SF and an elite PF/C. PG play needs to be good not great. It's easier for defenses to disrupt an offense when the best player runs the point, the simple act of having the ball all the time gives them more opportunities.

I think SG play gets overrated in importance because Phil Jackson won a bajillion rings with Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan running the triangle offense, which takes the ball away from the PG and puts the ball in the SGs hands a disproportionately high amount of time compared to every other NBA system. Nobody runs that offense any more. There are what, three truly great pure SGs in the league today? And Manu is a sixth man. SG is not a point of emphasis for the vast majority of the league, the offensive focus has shifted to other positions today.

But a SF is different. They are your swiss army knife players. The great ones can propel teams into contention because they can score from everywhere and defend every position. They cover up for all kinds of holes on your roster singlehandedly, and give you scheme versatility.

Getting good PG play is hard if you don't draft high, and I think it's being deceptively devalued because there are so many really good PGs in the league right now compared to the historical depth of the position. Half the league managed to snag up a really talented PG and get good PG play. But if you're not one of the teams fortunate enough to have a good PG, you feel it hard and it puts a wrench in your offense that is very difficult to work around. It's simple. If the guy who brings the ball up court every play sucks and can't handle the ball, your offense will suck and never be consistent. Bad PG play will lose you a game faster than anything just about.

Transcendent play from your big has always been a ticket to title contention. Look at the top 50 players list and look at the true bigs on it. I'm pretty sure Ewing, Malone, and Nate Thurmond are the only players on the list without a ring.

[StillUnknown]

Almost any NBA player can learn to spot up and shoot. Vesely isn't muscle bound (guys who tend to struggle shooting FTs and shooting from range tend to be very heavily muschled). He'll get good enough on offense and get his points and put out some Serge Ibaka like offense at PF in time--that's fine. Booker is a better player today, but I'd feel comfortable starting Vesely at PF next season if we didn't have Booker in front.

I wish I had your optimism on Vesely.

The team brought in a guy specifically to work with him on his jumpshot and he still can't hit the rim. My expectations are very low for him on offense. He'd would have to improve to be considered bad at this point.

Edited April 15, 2012 by StillUnknown

[Going Commando]

Talk about overrating someone.

He's not a good rotation player. He's not our best defensive player. He's not a legitimately good defender and he's an average rebounder.

You're wrong. On all counts. He is our best all around defender (curious, who do you think is better?). He's a good rebounder. He's a good rotation player. He's a good defender, especially for a rookie.

---------- Post added April-15th-2012 at 01:44 PM ----------

I know, right?

Vesely was one of the oldest players drafted in round 1 - 6th pick at that. He also has PRO experience. But yea...Wizards fans should have tempered their expectations for him.

I'll give him this...he's played well in April. Hopefully he can keep the momentum going into the off-season...work on his jumper, and be a guy who can fill the stat-sheet going forward.

You don't know what you're talking about.

[No Excuses]

You're wrong. On all counts. He is our best all around defender (curious, who do you think is better?). He's a good rebounder. He's a good rotation player. He's a good defender, especially for a rookie.

Yeah prove it. His numbers are so incredibly mediocre and he's doing this on the 2nd worst team in the NBA.

Good rotation player? I can only laugh at that. He's a bad starter on a terrible team. He wouldn't crack the rotation of any legitimate NBA team.

Edited April 15, 2012 by No Excuses

[RonArtest15]

You're wrong. On all counts. He is our best all around defender (curious, who do you think is better?). He's a good rebounder. He's a good rotation player. He's a good defender, especially for a rookie.

---------- Post added April-15th-2012 at 01:44 PM ----------

You don't know what you're talking about.

Oh, all-knowing Steve McQueen...please enlighten me as to what exactly I'm missing here? Thanks.

[No Excuses]

Oh, all-knowing Steve McQueen...please enlighten me as to what exactly I'm missing here? Thanks.

You're not watching games with his super awesome homer glasses. The one which make terrible starters on terrible teams all of a sudden " good at things".

Edited April 15, 2012 by No Excuses

[Destino]

I am not a believer in players that can't shoot becoming good shooters. If that were easy we'd see it all the time but even bad free throw shooters tend to rarely improve to good. Bad to average? That is more likely. Vesely needs to get stronger and work on short range. His speed and length can make him effective near the basket. I didn't like him drafted for the SF spot and still don't.

Having said that he is a good rotation player and defender off the bench. You want more than a glue guy from the 6th overall pick but that's what we have so far.

---------- Post added April-15th-2012 at 01:54 PM ----------

Yeah prove it. His numbers are so incredibly mediocre and he's doing this on the 2nd worst team in the NBA.

Good rotation player? I can only laugh at that. He's a bad starter on a terrible team. He wouldn't crack the rotation of any legitimate NBA team.

Right because the nba is filled with bigs that are terrific scorers. No room for energy guys in this league....

Have you seen what passes for talent standing 6'10 or taller coming off the bench?

[StillUnknown]

I am not a believer in players that can't shoot becoming good shooters. If that were easy we'd see it all the time but even bad free throw shooters tend to rarely improve to good. Bad to average? That is more likely. Vesely needs to get stronger and work on short range. His speed and length can make him effective near the basket. I didn't like him drafted for the SF spot and still don't.

Having said that he is a good rotation player and defender off the bench. You want more than a glue guy from the 6th overall pick but that's what we have so far.

I try to look past Vesely's draft position and see him for what he is, then I remember how long Ernie & crew locked in on him and wonder how much research they did on the rest of the class.

[No Excuses]

Right because the nba is filled with bigs that are terrific scorers. No room for energy guys in this league....

Have you seen what passes for talent standing 6'10 or taller coming off the bench?

Energy guys like Vesely offer something much more than bad defense and mediocre rebounding.

Jan doesn't have a single skill that passes him as a good rotation guy yet. He'll likely turn out as a good bench player, maybe even passable starter in the next two years but right now he wouldn't crack the rotation of any good NBA team.

He's over matched most nights at just about every skill an NBA PF needs.

Edited April 15, 2012 by No Excuses