The Official Washington Basketball Thread: Wizards, Mystics etc

[Destino]

People fall in love with players like McGee because they think a magical development fairy bequeaths to dumb players the ability to think, immature players the ability to grow up, and imagine that every long, tall guy with 40'' verts can be "molded" into a superstar. If that were true, we'd have a lot more superstars! When you're looking at a guy and thinking "If only he'll gain weight! If only he'll play tougher! If only he'll learn to box out!" If they didn't do it by their rookie year, or at least their 2nd year, they won't do it.

And others hold role players to ridiculous standards and fail to understand the availability of centers in the NBA when self righteously deciding players are worthless and worthy of being cast off with no replacement plan. Remind me again who has argued McGee will be a superstar?

Simple question of the wizards name the defenders better than McGee right now.

[SuperBash]

Wall dropping dimes out there

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Here's a wrinkle to the McGee "debate,"

For those who say "let Mcgee walk, he sucks and isn't worth keeping," I feel like you all are missing/ignoring a key point:

Propose a viable solution for our new starting center, beginning next season or STFU!

Who can we get that's better? It's that simple.

What is better? I'll take a guy with lesser stats who isn't a total dumb****. A lot of the things McGee hurts the team with aren't shown by the stats.

And then we get to off the court...

[MonkFan8]

It's not about finding a viable replacement for McGee, it's about not over spending for someone who may not be able to contribute on a winning team. I like Javale, he's no Blatche. If he put more time into studying the game I'd give him the contract that he wants, but right now I think it would be silly for the Wiz to match whatever ridiculous offer he's bound to get.

Nice game from Wall tonight. Took over at the right time, even his turnovers I've found bearable because he was trying to thread the needle.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

I actually think Seraphin can be developed into a more-tha-servicable center. I'm not to go full out with him though. But idk, if I'm forced to choose between paying McGee $12 per for the next five, or rolling with Seraphin as the starting 5, I gotta roll with Seraphin.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

Who can we get that's better? It's that simple.

Leaving aside Anthony Davis and Andre Drummond, both who will likely be better than Javale the minute they step onto the court, and the unlikely prospect of signing Dwight Howard, one can look at Thomas Robinson, Marcin Gortat, Chris Kaman, Roy Hibbert if you wanna pay him the max, because I doubt the Pacers can afford to pay him given their crappy finances, Spencer Hawes...all of those guys are better than Javale.

More to the point, what is the point for paying Javale McGee, a non-impact scorer, a negative-impact defender, and a slightly above-average rebounder, 10m/yr for 5 years? That's an Isaiah/Dolan/Grunfield move.

Edited February 13, 2012 by The Robert Griffin Experience

[Going Commando]

People fall in love with players like McGee because they think a magical development fairy bequeaths to dumb players the ability to think, immature players the ability to grow up, and imagine that every long, tall guy with 40'' verts can be "molded" into a superstar. If that were true, we'd have a lot more superstars! When you're looking at a guy and thinking "If only he'll gain weight! If only he'll play tougher! If only he'll learn to box out!" "If only he'll learn how to play pick and roll defense!" If they didn't do it by their rookie year, or at least their 2nd year, they won't do it.

He may appear to be a run of the mill double-doubleish center, but your average playoff starting center can actually play defense - McGee cannot.

Who is claiming McGee is going to become a Superstar? Take that straw man elsewhere. McGee is worth 10 million a year at what he is today. Beyond that, he will get better to some degree.

McGee's defense is not the source of our defensive problems. Individually, he's a solid to good defender. Are you just going to ignore the excellent defense he played through the first several weeks of the season?

Also, you're earlier argument about shot blocking being the most overrated part of big man defense undersells the value of shot blocking. It's very valuable and moreover, it's a rare talent. Altering shots at a high rate like McGee does makes shooters afraid to take it to the rim. It's psychological. You can't help it. It's not part of playing low post defense but it's a very big part of playing outstanding team defense.

It's no coincidence that McGee's defense looks much better when Booker starts instead of Blatche and anyone else is playing over Rashard, and when the guards are playing good defense on the perimeter.

The next time someone tells me that shot blocking is overrated, I'm going to say go and watch Kentucky play. They utterly control the paint.

---------- Post added February-12th-2012 at 08:17 PM ----------

Also, seems a bit strange that people are harshing on McGee right now--as he's putting on a dominant display against a quality matchup in Greg Monroe. Is no one watching him tonight?

---------- Post added February-12th-2012 at 08:25 PM ----------

What is better? I'll take a guy with lesser stats who isn't a total dumb****. A lot of the things McGee hurts the team with aren't shown by the stats.

And then we get to off the court...

It's not about the stats, it's about the various things that he can do for our team on the court that are valuable. Stats are the tangible function of that. McGee brings more to the table than he takes away.

What off court problems does he cause?

I couldn't care less if the man could hardly write his own name so long as he keeps playing like he has and continues his incremental improvement.

I do not think we can/will find a better option than McGee over the next three to four seasons, utterly critical for the John Wall era in Washington.

[Samuels]

McGee is a horrible defender overall I don't know how anyone that watches every game can argue that. Sure he has a OMG did you see that block and is among the league leaders in blocks but thats because he chases everything. And i'd be willing to bet he probably leads the league in goaltending as well. Watch him on screen and rolls, rotations and switches he don't he even hold the man he will flash for a split second and retreat like a dummy. He is a split second late all the time like he is still thinking and not playing.

Seraphin and Turiaf are better defenders then McGee right now. Thats why he was playing so much last week when McGee was getting jerked early.

I think he will sign the 1 year deal like Nick because nobody is gonna offer him big money and if they do we can match or workout a sign&trade.

McGee has to get a stronger base he gets pushed around way to much.

I think a vet coach like Van Gundy could bring out the best in McGee.

[StillUnknown]

Feels good to finally put a team away. Felt like Wall was sleepwalking the first half, then turned it up midway through the 3rd quarter and started to dominate.

McGee is a horrible defender overall I don't know how anyone that watches every game can argue that. Sure he has a OMG did you see that block and is among the league leaders in blocks but thats because he chases everything. And i'd be willing to bet he probably leads the league in goaltending as well. Watch him on screen and rolls, rotations and switches he don't he even hold the man he will flash for a split second and retreat like a dummy. He is a split second late all the time like he is still thinking and not playing.

Seraphin and Turiaf are better defenders then McGee right now. Thats why he was playing so much last week when McGee was getting jerked early.

I think he will sign the 1 year deal like Nick because nobody is gonna offer him big money and if they do we can match or workout a sign&trade.

McGee has to get a stronger base he gets pushed around way to much.

I think a vet coach like Van Gundy could bring out the best in McGee.

The interactions between Van Gundy & McGee would be hilarious.

Edited February 13, 2012 by StillUnknown

[Destino]

I actually think Seraphin can be developed into a more-tha-servicable center. I'm not to go full out with him though. But idk, if I'm forced to choose between paying McGee $12 per for the next five, or rolling with Seraphin as the starting 5, I gotta roll with Seraphin.

Seraphin shouldn't even be in the NBA at this point. What you wrote is in essence overpay McGee or find another center, Seraphin isn't a realistic starting option.

[Going Commando]

It's not about finding a viable replacement for McGee, it's about not over spending for someone who may not be able to contribute on a winning team. I like Javale, he's no Blatche. If he put more time into studying the game I'd give him the contract that he wants, but right now I think it would be silly for the Wiz to match whatever ridiculous offer he's bound to get.

Finding an equal or better replacement for JaVale is exactly what it comes down to.

What does overspending for someone who may not be able to contribute on a winning team mean? That's vague. We're trying to build a winning team right now with the pieces and tools we have. Part and parcel to that is having a viable starting center. What is the better plan than extending McGee?

You don't even know the terms of any contract offer he's likely to receive and you're already opposed to it. But for the sake of argument let's speculate that he gets offered ~11 million a year for four or five years. That's fair market price for a middle of the road to slightly above average veteran starting center. Is that overspending to you? Do you disagree that McGee is a middle of the road starting center?

Nice game from Wall tonight. Took over at the right time, even his turnovers I've found bearable because he was trying to thread the needle.

Yes it was. And it was a terrific game for NY, and especially JaVale McGee.

I know at least seven of Wall's assists went to McGee but stopped counting around assist number 11.

Vesely was outstanding and Booker was solid if not spectacular. Good on the offensive glass, good touch around the basket, and good defense. He's getting better.

---------- Post added February-12th-2012 at 08:45 PM ----------

Seraphin shouldn't even be in the NBA at this point. What you wrote is in essence overpay McGee or find another center, Seraphin isn't a realistic starting option.

Saying he shouldn't be in the NBA seems harsh, Seraphin is obviously raw as hell but he has his moments. Still, your point stands. Starting Seraphin is tantamount to throwing up a white flag at the position. He'd certainly be the worst starting center in the NBA next year.

[Destino]

McGee is a horrible defender overall I don't know how anyone that watches every game can argue that. Sure he has a OMG did you see that block and is among the league leaders in blocks but thats because he chases everything. And i'd be willing to bet he probably leads the league in goaltending as well. Watch him on screen and rolls, rotations and switches he don't he even hold the man he will flash for a split second and retreat like a dummy. He is a split second late all the time like he is still thinking and not playing.

Seraphin and Turiaf are better defenders then McGee right now. Thats why he was playing so much last week when McGee was getting jerked early.

I think he will sign the 1 year deal like Nick because nobody is gonna offer him big money and if they do we can match or workout a sign&trade.

McGee has to get a stronger base he gets pushed around way to much.

I think a vet coach like Van Gundy could bring out the best in McGee.

I don't get the love affair with Seraphin...is it an underdog thing, like it's fun to pull for the extremely undersized guy that belongs in the d league? Saying he's better defender than McGee is laughable even if you ignore blocks and just looked at altered shots. Turiaf should take all of seraphins minutes because at least he belongs in the NBA.

[Thinking Skins]

Vesley was beautiful tonight. Even coming off the bench, I prefer him over Blatche. I just love the energy and intelligence this guy plays with. Lewis was in the role I'd like to see him stay in (coming off the bench). Singleton played good defense, but his shot wasn't really falling. He can work on that though. What can I say about Booker? He was taking on Monroe and not backing down at all. IMPRESSIVE.

Wall, Young, and McGee all played great games in my mind. McGee had a few goaltends that I noticed (actually I noticed them because i was wondering if they had decreased recently), bur he did a good job of altering shots and not jumping as often as he normally does. I just loved Wall's assists tonight. He wasn't getting the calls from the refs though, but thats another story.

[Destino]

Saying he shouldn't be in the NBA seems harsh, Seraphin is obviously raw as hell but he has his moments. Still, your point stands. Starting Seraphin is tantamount to throwing up a white flag at the position. He'd certainly be the worst starting center in the NBA next year.

I think being in the nba is hurting him. He should be in the d league learning to play PF where he has a better shot of contributing and creating a career for himself. The nba doesn't need 6'9 players lacking essentially all basic NBA skills.

---------- Post added February-12th-2012 at 08:54 PM ----------

Vesley was beautiful tonight. Even coming off the bench, I prefer him over Blatche. I just love the energy and intelligence this guy plays with. Lewis was in the role I'd like to see him stay in (coming off the bench). Singleton played good defense, but his shot wasn't really falling. He can work on that though. What can I say about Booker? He was taking on Monroe and not backing down at all. IMPRESSIVE.

Wall, Young, and McGee all played great games in my mind. McGee had a few goaltends that I noticed (actually I noticed them because i was wondering if they had decreased recently), bur he did a good job of altering shots and not jumping as often as he normally does. I just loved Wall's assists tonight. He wasn't getting the calls from the refs though, but thats another story.

GACOLB has been high on Booker for a while and I have to give him his due on that call. Booker looks like he can be a starting PF in this league and is close to getting a mid range shot down.

[Going Commando]

I actually think Seraphin can be developed into a more-tha-servicable center. I'm not to go full out with him though. But idk, if I'm forced to choose between paying McGee $12 per for the next five, or rolling with Seraphin as the starting 5, I gotta roll with Seraphin.

Seriously? Think about that for a second GACOLB. You would prefer Seraphin being our starting center? You're OK with us trotting out what would undoubtedly be the worst starting center in the NBA? This team? Keep in mind we don't have two of the three/four best players in the NBA to make up for that like the Heat do.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

Who is claiming McGee is going to become a Superstar? Take that straw man elsewhere. McGee is worth 10 million a year at what he is today. Beyond that, he will get better to some degree.

I don't care that the market overpays centers in free agency. It's a bad move even if everyone else is doing it.

McGee's defense is not the source of our defensive problems. Individually, he's a solid to good defender. Are you just going to ignore the excellent defense he played through the first several weeks of the season?

Yes, just like I'm going to ignore the 24/9 Andray Blatche put up over 30 games a couple years ago. And even then, McGee's defense was not "excellent", it was "average" after being far below average.

Also, you're earlier argument about shot blocking being the most overrated part of big man defense undersells the value of shot blocking. It's very valuable and moreover, it's a rare talent. Altering shots at a high rate like McGee does makes shooters afraid to take it to the rim. It's psychological. You can't help it. It's not part of playing low post defense but it's a very big part of playing outstanding team defense.

Actually, blocks are qualitatively different. Guys like Big Ben in his prime, Bill Russell, Tim Duncan, they get blocked shots in the context of their team defense through anticipation, timing and positioning. Guys like Javale McGee get their blocks by gambling on every shot attempt they feasibly can, which leads to constant biting on pumpfakes, getting out of position, and giving up a lot of points. This makes McGee a detriment to team defense. McGee has improved in that regard - but he's gone from unspeakably awful to just bad.

The next time someone tells me that shot blocking is overrated, I'm going to say go and watch Kentucky play. They utterly control the paint.

Again, big difference between gambling for blocks and getting blocks due to defensive scheme. It's like interceptions in football - sometimes the interception number doesn't say much about how good the defender is.

I do not think we can/will find a better option than McGee over the next three to four seasons, utterly critical for the John Wall era in Washington.

Are you saying Drummond or Davis can't be better than a below-average C? Or Robinson? Hell, Ves with 20 pounds of muscle is a better center than McGee right now.

McGee might get 10m per year on the market. Scrubs like Charlie V get 10m per year. But he's not even an average center because he's not even average on defense, barely average offensively, and somewhat above-average on the boards in a contract year. He's also an immature mama's boy who's soft and doesn't do the fundamental things on the court that help a team win.

Normally when we're trying to defend a player by talking about the players he plays with - we're really saying that player needs to be hidden on defense so his negative impact can be minimized.

Edited February 13, 2012 by The Robert Griffin Experience

[Samuels]

I don't get the love affair with Seraphin...is it an underdog thing, like it's fun to pull for the extremely undersized guy that belongs in the d league? Saying he's better defender than McGee is laughable even if you ignore blocks and just looked at altered shots. Turiaf should take all of seraphins minutes because at least he belongs in the NBA.

Because Seraphin atleast can hold his ground, block shots without leaving his feet getting out of position for rebounds. He understands how to switch, stop the ball and play screen and rolls. Defense is so much more then block shots and goaltends.

I like McGee but lets be honest there is no substance to his game he is all flash.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

It's funny how people are defending a guy who was a national punchline BEFORE he ran back on defense while his team had the ball.

[Thinking Skins]

And another thing. I know this is a basketball thread, but Wizards fans are reminding me a lot of Philadelphia Eagles fans in how we disrespect our players. I mean, I'm part of the mentality with how I treat Blatche, but people have been arguing in favor of Rubio over Wall, Lin over Wall, Hibbert over McGee, etc. Its like we're so quick to bring down our players and really run them out of town. People act like players don't develop. Walls jumper has improved. McGee's hookshot has improved. Yeah, I agree that part of these guy's games will probably never be perfect, but even Kobe doesn't have a perfect game.

I'm still in favor of signing McGee to a reasonable contract. But more than that, I'm in favor of getting guys around him that can hustle and shoot and compliment him on the things he's lacking. Its amazing how much McGee's defense improves when we have players in there like Booker and Singleton or Vesely. I'm not saying that he's a DPOY or anything, but lets not act like its all on him. This is a team where Gilbert laughed at Eddie Jordan for trying to get us to focus more on defense. And to Gilbert's credit, he had a point because we were a "winning" team, or at least a playoff team. It just wasn't a part of our philosophy, other than a quick steal here or there. Trying to change that takes time. Some players will buy in, some won't, But just because McGee isn't going to be an all pro center doens't mean that we shouldn't consider resigning him.

I'm not even going to diss Ernie. I'm mute on him being kept or fired. I was impressed with what we did in the draft this year, mainly because we got Singleton. Wall's numbers look "bad" right now because his j is off and our team can't shoot, but players like Booker and Singleton are the kind of players that I think we should be building this team around (along with Wall of course). But we've got to realize that they (just like McGee) aren't going to do it all themselves.

I look around the league and I see a bunch of players who (like McGee) were once Wizards who didn't look like impressive players here, but they went elsewhere and developed into more complete players, or players with roles that specialize in the things that they did well (Ben Wallace comes to mind), as does Rip Hamilton. Jeffries is 6'11 a guy we tried to play at the 2 and now he's in NY playing at the 4/5. There's a list out there of players we gave up on. I'm not saying that we need to go crazy with it, but as long as McGee doesn't have Blatche type tendencies of not putting the effort in (which isn't something I've heard about him), then I'd sign him and wouldn't even be afraid to match most offers he gets because contrary to what some believe I think he will continue to develop and can be a part of a good team, particularly as this team begins to mature together.

[Going Commando]

Vesley was beautiful tonight. Even coming off the bench, I prefer him over Blatche. I just love the energy and intelligence this guy plays with. Lewis was in the role I'd like to see him stay in (coming off the bench). Singleton played good defense, but his shot wasn't really falling. He can work on that though. What can I say about Booker? He was taking on Monroe and not backing down at all. IMPRESSIVE.

Wall, Young, and McGee all played great games in my mind. McGee had a few goaltends that I noticed (actually I noticed them because i was wondering if they had decreased recently), bur he did a good job of altering shots and not jumping as often as he normally does. I just loved Wall's assists tonight. He wasn't getting the calls from the refs though, but thats another story.

Booker isn't flashy but he's in the right place at the right time consistently. He's strong and has a low center of gravity for a big. He was the only guy on our roster that consistently hold his own against Monroe's strength. I thought Booker and McGee did a good job defending and bothering him tonight considering just how good Monroe is. Monroe is the second best offensive center in the conference IMO. They did a good job out-rebounding him on the offensive glass and clearly frustrated him, forcing him into bad shots and turnovers. They are our best front court rotation by far and tonight was a clear demonstration of that IMO.

I actually thought Singleton had a very poor game overall, but at least he hustles and plays mean. A couple of awful fouls though and his offensive game within 15 feet of the rim is embryonic. I think Vesely should probably start ahead of him. He's a better player than him right now. If it's an issue of strength or conditioning, then I understand keeping Vesely as a reserve but in terms of skills and awareness, Vesely is pretty far ahead Singleton IMO, which is the opposite of what I thought would be the case coming into the season.

I was all for trading NY before but that's something we simply can't do unless we replace him with another long term starting SG. Crawford can not be our starting SG long term. He's just not good enough and he's a bigger black hole than NY usually is.

McGee the finisher is exactly the type of offensive option we need to keep around for Wall to maximize his effectiveness. Wall will draw the help on his way to the rim because of his speed. There's not a defender in the league that can stay in front of him all game. He needs options who can finish and when he's got them like he had with JaVale and Vesely tonight, he's good for 15 dimes. Once Wall gets to the point where he can finish through contact with consistency, you're just not going to be able to defend that combination in transition.

Shelvin Mack looks like he can be a quality backup point down the road and seems like he can become a nice sixth man.

[Thinking Skins]

It's funny how people are defending a guy who was a national punchline BEFORE he ran back on defense while his team had the ball.

Want to know what's funny? Guess who was the national punchline BEFORE McGee was the National Punchline? Kendrick Perkins. Why? Because he was dunked on by Blake Griffin. What did Kendrick do? He played D and tried to stop the dunk.

I remember last year McGee was a National Punchline because he got a triple double in blocks rebounds and points, and he kept trying to get the third part of that triple double. So he became a national punchline. But people just ignored the fact that he got 10 BLOCKS in a game. How many guys can put that on their resume?

I saw that play in the game and yeah, it made me laugh, but I was impressed that he was trying to get back on D. Given, he should be watching the ball more but I'd rather have a guy who's hustling up and down the floor than a guy (ala Blatche) who doesn't even return to the other side to play D. But since that doesn't get national attention we don't care about it.

Sorry, I don't give much weight to something just because ESPN decides that they want another reason to laugh at the Wizards.

[Destino]

Vesely would start ahead of singleton if he could shoot or had any confidence with the ball in any situation other than dunking it. He doesn't even seem to trust himself to dribble the ball. He can contribute because hes a terrific athlete with good awareness. Wanting to play the wing though really limits him because that is a position where frankly the starter has to be a decent shooter even if just from 15 feet.

---------- Post added February-12th-2012 at 09:25 PM ----------

It's funny how people are defending a guy who was a national punchline BEFORE he ran back on defense while his team had the ball.

You sound like Cowherd.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

Want to know what's funny? Guess who was the national punchline BEFORE McGee was the National Punchline? Kendrick Perkins. Why? Because he was dunked on by Blake Griffin. What did Kendrick do? He played D and tried to stop the dunk. \.

Kendrick Perkins - got posterized by a great player while playing solid D.

Javale McGee - made himself look like a moron on national TV and a player with a history of making himself look like a moron.

But no, the Magical Development Fairy is going to come and sprinkle her fairy dust and make all our players glaring problems go away, just like she has for every other talented knucklehead we've had come through the pike. In 2002 it was Kwame. In 2005 it was Jarvis Hayes. In 2009 it was Andray Blatche. Now its Javale McGee.

[Thinking Skins]

I actually thought Singleton had a very poor game overall, but at least he hustles and plays mean. A couple of awful fouls though and his offensive game within 15 feet of the rim is embryonic. I think Vesely should probably start ahead of him. He's a better player than him right now. If it's an issue of strength or conditioning, then I understand keeping Vesely as a reserve but in terms of skills and awareness, Vesely is pretty far ahead Singleton IMO, which is the opposite of what I thought would be the case coming into the season.

I think they should be fighting for the starting spot. Both have had their good games and bad games. Singleton seems to have better range, but his confidence is horrible and he doesn't have the put-back game like Booker has. Vesely's the opposite and did get some real good boards and just all out hustled. Part of me thinks that Singleton's just got a problem with nerves and frustration, while I think Vesely just needs to take more shots in practice. But both players compliment one another and the fact that they can both play D is a good thing to me.

I was all for trading NY before but that's something we simply can't do unless we replace him with another long term starting SG. Crawford can not be our starting SG long term. He's just not good enough and he's a bigger black hole than NY usually is.

McGee the finisher is exactly the type of offensive option we need to keep around for Wall to maximize his effectiveness. Wall will draw the help on his way to the rim because of his speed. There's not a defender in the league that can stay in front of him all game. He needs options who can finish and when he's got them like he had with JaVale and Vesely tonight, he's good for 15 dimes. Once Wall gets to the point where he can finish through contact with consistency, you're just not going to be able to defend that combination in transition.

Shelvin Mack looks like he can be a quality backup point down the road and seems like he can become a nice sixth man.

I'm all for trading NY if we think he's not a part of the future. I don't really care about Crawford as much as I care about building a team. I realize that we're in a building process so if we can get a first for NY then I'd do it. I like NY's shot, but I'd prefer a player with a more complete game. Young coming off the bench is ideal for me, but I don't think he'll agree to that. I think part of Crawford's shot selection is just like we were saying last year, he's just young. Add that to the fact that he's on the bench and doesn't really have the chance to really get a feel for his shot and I'm not as down on him as others. I'd still like to see us bring in somebody else at the 2, but I'm not so down on Crawford. I agree with McGee. That was something I liked about Wall&McGee back to the summer games stuff when they just kept doing that. I think they have a nice chemistry that can develop as both players develop, especially as we build more of a team and as we begin to shoot better as a team.

[Gator Bait]

Seraphin shouldn't even be in the NBA at this point. What you wrote is in essence overpay McGee or find another center, Seraphin isn't a realistic starting option.

how much have you watched this year, because Seraphin has actually had a few really good games. I don't think he is a starting center, but he is def. a back up quality guy for the future and could develop into more.