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BRAVEONAWARPATH

By BRAVEONAWARPATH
in The Tailgate

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I could see comparing two players that play different positions but they play the same position. PG is the most important postion on the team, imo. But yeah, he shoots much better than Wall for now but I feel Wall is the better PG and better defensive player. There are two sides to the game.

It is turning into a PG league, but a PG is really only as good as the players around him. You could stick Chris Paul on the wizards and we'd still have a loosing record. Neither Wall or Irving have any consistently good offensive players around them. Can only judge them right now on what they can do themselves to win.

This is actually kind of a stupid debate because we are all in agreement that in the long run Wall should be a much better player, but only time will tell. If we don't get him some help soon, he may develop bad habits and become a shot jacking PG who can't shoot, who may score 25 per game, but at a very inefficient rate in losing efforts.

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G.A.C.O.L.B.

G.A.C.O.L.B.

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This is actually kind of a stupid debate because we are all in agreement that in the long run Wall should be a much better player, but only time will tell. If we don't get him some help soon, he may develop bad habits and become a shot jacking PG who can't shoot, who may score 25 per game, but at a very inefficient rate in losing efforts.

That is EXACTLY what I'm worried about. I'm thoroughly convinced that you cannot win a championship with a score-first PG as THE guy on the team. It's literally never been done. And it's why I think Rose will never win a ring as THE guy. Wall is naturally a pure PG. If we don't get him some help and get it quick, we run a real risk of ****ing him up. He has enough natural ability to eventually become a scorer. And he hates losing enough to become that if he thinks that it'll get us wins. That's the last thing we want.

Isiah Thomas is what we want. Go look at his numbers. 19.2 and 9.3 for his career. I think Wall can top that if has talent around him. 22 and 10 is doable. And I think Wall is also a leader like Zeke was. Maybe not the same style, but players will follow him to the end.

Edited by G.A.C.O.L.B.
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BRAVEONAWARPATH

BRAVEONAWARPATH

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(BTW, almost completely unrelated: who was Lamar Odom's big time teammate at Rhode Island? I think he was the PG. Highly touted but I don't think he ever did much in the league. I almost wanna say it was Tyronne Lue. Anyone remember? That's bugging me now.)

I think you're referring to Tyson Wheeler but he was never a teammate of Lamar's.

Missed each other by one year.

Edited by BRAVEONAWARPATH
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bdiamond

bdiamond

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I'm thinking of Cuttino Mobley. He actually graduated from Rhode Island the year BEFORE Lamar Odom got there. I just remembered two big time players being at bum**** Rhode Island in the late 90's.

How dare you, don't forget from 1999-2001 we had Stephon Marbury's kid brother Zach.

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Going Commando

Going Commando

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Here is a comparison for you:

Who is a better basketball player right now.....Ray Allen or John Wall

Ray Allen is. Does Ray Allen get more rebounds, assists, or steels than John Wall? NO

But Ray Allen shoots 50% from the field, 56% from three, and 88% free throw shooter and he scores 15.6 points per game .....and he doesn't turn the ball over.

That's all well and good for Ray Allen... because he's a pure shooting guard. Those are not the only qualities that matter for a point guard. I'd argue those aren't even the most important qualities for a point guard. Can he handle the ball and get to the rim like John Wall? No. Can he make plays for his teammates like John Wall? No. Can he play defense and rebound like John Wall? No. Is he the leader and floor general that John Wall is? Well, who knows really, but I doubt it since he's distinctively the third wheel in the Celtics' big three.

Remember, this discussion started off because you said that Kyrie Irving had better point guard skills than John Wall. John Wall's turnovers is a valid complaint, but it doesn't make Irving better because Irving also doesn't make plays for his teammates any where close to as frequently as John Wall does, and he's got lots of good shooters surrounding him.

I'd concede your point if you had said Kyrie Irving makes a better two guard than John Wall.

---------- Post added January-20th-2012 at 10:01 AM ----------

That is EXACTLY what I'm worried about. I'm thoroughly convinced that you cannot win a championship with a score-first PG as THE guy on the team. It's literally never been done. And it's why I think Rose will never win a ring as THE guy. Wall is naturally a pure PG. If we don't get him some help and get it quick, we run a real risk of ****ing him up. He has enough natural ability to eventually become a scorer. And he hates losing enough to become that if he thinks that it'll get us wins. That's the last thing we want.

Isiah Thomas is what we want. Go look at his numbers. 19.2 and 9.3 for his career. I think Wall can top that if has talent around him. 22 and 10 is doable. And I think Wall is also a leader like Zeke was. Maybe not the same style, but players will follow him to the end.

Iverson could have won that year if he had any kind of help surrounding him while he was in his prime. This was before the handchecking rules became strictly enforced too. I don't think L.A. won just because they had Shaq and bigs are always going to win in the end yadda yadda. I think L.A. won because they had the better team top to bottom and a legit Superstar second option in Kobe.

I think Rose can win a ring as the top scorer if he gets someone else that can go 20 PPG along with him.

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G.A.C.O.L.B.

G.A.C.O.L.B.

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Trying to come up with a list of score-first PG's. Iverson, Arenas, Rose, Westbrook. Obviously. Would Billups or Tony Parker count?

Edit: Pistol Pete and Mo Williams

- Iverson

- Rose

- Gilbert

- Westbrook

- Mo Williams

- Pistol Pete

Wish I had some more older ones.

Edited by G.A.C.O.L.B.
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That's all well and good for Ray Allen... because he's a pure shooting guard. Those are not the only qualities that matter for a point guard.

Shooting guards should be expected to rebound, get assists, and play defense as well.

I'd argue those aren't even the most important qualities for a point guard.

the most important quality for any player on a team is to be efficient. You can look at efficiency in terms of assist/turnover ratio, rebounds per 48 minutes, or shooting percentage. All of the above are important. John Wall isn't efficient in any category; Kyrie is a very efficient scorer.

Can he handle the ball and get to the rim like John Wall? No

at this point getting to the rim doesn't really matter for Wall.....he is a pretty lousy finisher and doesn't know how to change gears. He goes balls to the wall at the rim and typically comes up empty...so your point here is not valid.

Can he make plays for his teammates like John Wall? No.

Of course he can, but when you play on a crap team like Cleveland and you shoot 48% from the field, your assists are going to decrease and your scoring is going to increase.

Can he play defense and rebound like John Wall? No.

At this point John Wall can't be called a good defender. Just about a week and a half ago, The Bulls 3rd string PG dropped a 25-8-8 mainly on wall. The sixers combo of Holiday and Williams abuse him; Dwill tour him up in the opener; westbrook went for 36 the other night. I'll give John credit, he attempts to be a good defender (and taking 5 or 6 charges the other night is a great start) but at this time he is not a good defender.

Is he the leader and floor general that John Wall is? Well, who knows really, but I doubt it since he's distinctively the third wheel in the Celtics' big three.

You talking about Ray Allen here? Because Ray has definitely been the 2nd best player on that team this year.

Remember, this discussion started off because you said that Kyrie Irving had better point guard skills than John Wall. John Wall's turnovers is a valid complaint, but it doesn't make Irving better because Irving also doesn't make plays for his teammates any where close to as frequently as John Wall does, and he's got lots of good shooters surrounding him.

please show me where I said that.....because I didn't. I said that right now Kyrie Irving is a better PLAYER than John Wall; and he is. He is much better. He is excellent in one aspect of the game (shooting) and isn't weak in any aspect of the game. Wall is very weak in one aspect of the game (shooting) and isn't excellent at anything. I'd say he is an above average passer and rebounder, but that's about it right now.

I'd concede your point if you had said Kyrie Irving makes a better two guard than John Wall.

Irving is a better anything than Wall right now....guard, basketballe player...whatever you want to call it.

I'm sure I wont feel this way at the end of next year.....shoot, maybe even by the end of this year. But right now, Irving is clearly better.

Irving is the best player on a 5-6 team with crappy players. Wall is the best player on a 2-12 with crappy players.

---------- Post added January-20th-2012 at 04:53 PM ----------

Trying to come up with a list of score-first PG's. Iverson, Arenas, Rose, Westbrook. Obviously. Would Billups or Tony Parker count?

Edit: Pistol Pete and Mo Williams

- Iverson

- Rose

- Gilbert

- Westbrook

- Mo Williams

- Pistol Pete

Wish I had some more older ones.

Parker and Billups are pretty well rounded, but I'd call them score first before i'd call them pass first.

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No Excuses

No Excuses

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It's amusing watching defenders try to keep up with Wall on the fast break. Once he becomes more comfortable finishing around the rim, it's going to be unstoppable to guard him.

Vesely is struggling today. Denver's strength inside is bothering him.

---------- Post added January-20th-2012 at 07:55 PM ----------

Blatche is such a worthless d-bag.

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StillUnknown

StillUnknown

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Wall's confidence is sky high. Just ridiculous, how does he stop a one on four fast break??

His defense has been alot better recently as well, he timed that block on Lawson perfectly towards the end of the half.

---------- Post added January-20th-2012 at 08:33 PM ----------

Wall close to a triple double, only midway through the 3rd quarter (9pts, 8 rebs, 7 assists)

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