StillUnknown Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 Just now, Renegade7 said: Those two average between 50-60 points between them in the playoffs. They are the only reason we win playoff series, this is not their fault. Thinking trading for draft picks will fix anything if Ernie is making them is a mistake. its not about assigning blame this current roster construction is ****ed and will not age well. If you can find someone dumb enough to take Wall's contract, you do it. And it kills me to say that, I love Wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, StillUnknown said: its not about assigning blame this current roster construction is ****ed and will not age well. If you can find someone dumb enough to take Wall's contract, you do it. And it kills me to say that, I love Wall. Nonsense, ***kin nonsense. The second Wall gets with a real coach he'll be an mvp candidate, bring the coach here. Defense is more mental then physical, you can't convince me players like our Max players or Kelly or couple others don't have physical tools to do better in defense. The team is underacheiving on defense, not incapable. This wouldnt be as maddening if they were incapable. Edited November 3, 2018 by Renegade7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 Smart move is to fire Grunfeld and Brooks and hire the best GM candidate available and let him spend the season figuring out which pieces to move. It's the only way forward. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 1 minute ago, stevemcqueen1 said: Smart move is to fire Grunfeld and Brooks and hire the best GM candidate available and let him spend the season figuring out which pieces to move. It's the only way forward. I figured you had a list by now. Is there one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillUnknown Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRobi21 Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillUnknown Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 7 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: Nonsense, ***kin nonsense. The second Wall gets with a real coach he'll be an mvp candidate, bring the coach here. Defense is more mental then physical, you can't convince me players like our Max players or Kelly or couple others don't have physical tools to do better in defense. The team is underacheiving on defense, not incapable. This wouldnt be as maddening if they were incapable. I think Wall's bad habits will be more difficult to break than you seem to believe, I would love to be wrong on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 By the time we are ready to actually have a shot at anything Walls knees will have faded from existence. Beal I can see keeping. But Wall? If we rebuild the only smart move is to move him. We are not an off season away. But we ain't gonna have a true rebuild in any meaningful way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 Talking about Walls health and last year was first one Beal ever played 82 games, that makes sense. We've never had a great coach or gm and still getting to second round. If there was ever a dc team that I felt needed the right people leading it versus nuking from orbit, it's this one. I dont feel the same way about this roster as I did about Arenas era when we finally gave up on him, that was a team you had to blow up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 Yes we are all aware that Beal has injury issues. But you act like Wall has been the picture of health - ever - in his career. I'm just talking about moving older pieces that have great value while they still do. When we are ready to win again I dont think it will be with this decade and I dont think Wall will be the same player by then. Beal is alot younger so I think if I keep one of them its him. But I could just as easily go with neither. Or both, really. What do I care? But I think moving wall is the right move IF we blow it up. Just an opinion playa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 (edited) Wall is 28, Beal is 25. I'm fine having the Wall trade convo if we gonna blow up, I jus dont agree that's convo we should be having, I dont. This is so much between the ears it won't matter who comes here, I cannot have this convo unless Ernie is gone. Jus said in NBA thread, caps didn't gave up on ovi, they changed what was around him. I've never seen him with a coach to maximize whatever his ceiling really is to see I dont want to see it. Tell you what, I am looking at Wall and what he says even if he's right. He needs to be careful here. Edited November 3, 2018 by Renegade7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 John was healthy for four years from the time he came back in 2013 until he banged knees in that Mavs game last season. The only real injury he suffered during that span was breaking his hand in the playoff game against Atlanta, and he was back for the end of that series. John has been durable. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 I'm really not saying hes gonna break down as much as I'm saying hes going to eventually slow down and his game may not translate the way I wish it would. But I could be wrong. I hope I am. Hes my favorite player ever just cause of how he plays here. But it's a possibility imo. We totally need to consider blowing at up at this point. If the GM and HC go the next guys may want to do that. So its, in a way, the possibility we really need on the table. The only way its absolutely NOT is if Ernie stays or if the next guy gets here and is told what players to keep. Neither option is good for us. Also if we ain't considering blowing it up how long do we wait to talk about it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 2 hours ago, Renegade7 said: Nonsense, ***kin nonsense. The second Wall gets with a real coach he'll be an mvp candidate, bring the coach here. Defense is more mental then physical, you can't convince me players like our Max players or Kelly or couple others don't have physical tools to do better in defense. The team is underacheiving on defense, not incapable. This wouldnt be as maddening if they were incapable. Certainly, if you have the athletic ability, NBA defense is mostly mental and about want to. That actually makes it the easiest and hardest thing to coach. And you see it all the time in the NBA. "Good defensive" coaches go to be bad defensive teams and the team stays a bad defensive team. You see "good defensive coaches" leave good defensive teams and the teams stays a good defensive team. Thibs in MN is a good example. He had some really good defensive teams in Chicago. He goes to MN, and they are bad on defense. Nobody things Thibs forgot how to coach defense. On no team with no coach is Wall more than a fringe (e.g. 4 or 5) MVP candidate. He's just not that good on defense or offense. @Destino, part of the defensive problems are from the 5, but it wasn't hard to see that Howard might not actually fix them. He's really good at one thing (blocking shots at the rim when he's there), but he's not good as a help defender even in the post, and he's bad out of the paint in terms of pick and rolls or defending stretch players. And that's why the Howard move was so interesting (to me, as a non-Wizards fan). Either he'd buy in and you could get him incorporated into a reasonable defensive and offensive scheme given the current the NBA, or he would/could not and it would be a flop. You either were going to be a lot better or worse. (Though, I'll admit, I didn't see them being this bad, and I suspect @Destino is correct, and they'll work some issue out/get some lucky breaks and win some more games. They aren't as bad as Atlanta.) I'll also say, I'm not going to get into a big defend Ernie thing, but I think he's given a bit too much here. What he's done in terms of building multiple playoff teams relatively quickly isn't a trivial thing. And everybody misses on picks. It is just part of the NBA. (It seems to me that Ernie has two issues: 1. Not understanding earlier that this team likely isn't good enough to be a championship and doing somethings to retain flexibility. But I'm not sure that is on him as it is possible ownership said, hey don't worry about a championship, just give us a couple of years with good playoff wins.) 2. The large Brooks contract, I don't understand. I find it hard to believe that there was that much demand for Brooks that you had to give him that contract (which sort of related to my first point, seems to have really limited your flexibility).) Generally, in the NBA, I don't believe there is much coaches and management can do about want to, effort, passion, and a mental understanding of what it takes to win. It mostly has to come from the players, and if your players don't have it, then your stuck. (It seems to me that Wall and Beal actually have the 1st 3, but I'm doubtful if they have the last 1. I'm not sure Howard as any of them.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 3 hours ago, Renegade7 said: The second Wall gets with a real coach he'll be an mvp candidate No, he won't. That is over. You are still clinging hope as if Wall is 20 years old. He is 28. This is who he is. If anything, a real coach will tell him to get off the ball and be a second or third option on a good team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 Brooks didn’t inherit a bad defensive team. The wizards had been a fairly good defensive team. It was only in Wittmans last year that the team fell out of the top ten in defensive rating... and they only fell as far as 14th. We had Jared Dudley playing PF that season and Beal only started 35 games. It was a down year in many areas Brooks’ first year saw the team finish 20th. They rebounded a bit and finished 15th (still worse than Wittman’s worst result), and are currently sitting at 28th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 3 hours ago, BenningRoadSkin said: No, he won't. That is over. You are still clinging hope as if Wall is 20 years old. He is 28. This is who he is. If anything, a real coach will tell him to get off the ball and be a second or third option on a good team. Walls last two years in the playoffs he averaged about 26ppg and 11apg, the only I'm not sold on him fixing is his 3 point shot. Jesus, for once I wish this team would defend itself with its play i so dont have to with my posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosher Ham Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 Two year process at least to start over and hope that you get some really nice lottery picks, not to mention adding a couple of cheap,solid vets. I don't see anyone taking. Wall or oubres contracts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 2 hours ago, Renegade7 said: Walls last two years in the playoffs he averaged about 26ppg and 11apg, the only I'm not sold on him fixing is his 3 point shot. Jesus, for once I wish this team would defend itself with its play i so dont have to with my posts. The MVP is awarded in regular season. The Boston series he shot under 40% and he shot 45% versus the Raptors. The playoffs are also a very small sample size and even then, so what? Wall would be told to be a second or third option because he isn’t an elite scorer, and isn’t a good half court scorer. The Wall could win MVP convo is over. That is never happening. He is 28. This is exactly who he is. A guy who isn’t a leader, isn’t a good defender, and isn’t an great scorer. It’s not happening. Everyone else gets blame and ire except the two all stars and I’m over that. This team is 1-7, and the two all stars are as much to blame as everyone else. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 9 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said: Smart move is to fire Grunfeld and Brooks and hire the best GM candidate available and let him spend the season figuring out which pieces to move. It's the only way forward. Really the first move is Ernie. You cannot let him try to put one of his smoke and mirrors tricks to save his job. It's a bad time for anything since the best GM candidate might be working in another front office right now. But, Ernie has to go now. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 2 hours ago, Renegade7 said: Jesus, for once I wish this team would defend itself with its play i so dont have to with my posts. They won’t. Which is why we are having the discussion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 I’d like to point out that this team should be 0-8. It took a career shooting night by Lazy Keef to miraculously escape Portland with a victory while Wall/Beal/Otto were chucking bricks down the stretch. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 Brooks is a shockingly weak coach and his defensive system has collapsed. Everyone is committing back breaking mistakes. John and Brad are pressing like crazy to try and rescue things and John is playing totally lost on offense. Theirs are the actions of guys who are trying to coach and lead the team themselves in the TOTAL void of leadership above them. They're not just players, they are everything for us. It's a disaster. Brooks lost this team. Firing him is the first and most necessary step. But they're going to drag it out so as not to eat his excruciating contract. The next step is to fire Ernie. But everyone knows he's invulnerable. So then the only real next step is for fans to stop watching. If I were coaching, the first move I'd make to dig out of this rut is burying Keef on the bench. Everyone has been a disaster on defense, but he is at the center of most breakdowns. He just doesn't care. The next step is to throw the switch heavy scheme in the garbage. It facilitates the worst tendencies of John and Keef and it leaves Brad in untenable situations and it leaves Kelly confused because he doesn't process all of the switches fast enough and it leaves the bigs frustrated. Mahinmi and Otto are literally the only guys on the team capable of running the damn thing. Throw out the scheme and go to a much more orthodox man scheme that ices high pick and roles and coach the perimeter guys to fight through screens. And bench Keef and start Oubre. Don't even really know where to begin on offense aside from the fact that we should be running plays. This season has been an absolute indictment of the way teams like us and Houston play offense. I guess build the foundation from Horns and then expand from there. Have Wall, Beal, Sato, and Otto each take turns ball handling from the top of the key. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 No one was fired last night Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 @Renegade7 Wall is not even the 3rd best PG in the NBA. He isn't jumping over 3+ other people at his position alone to win an MVP award. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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