Why Was Danny Smith Allowed To Keep A Job? The all things Danny Smith Thread(Merged & M.E.T.)

[paulterp]

maybe five good special teams plays all year, atleast five bad ones every game, and it was more surprising when there was a return without a penalty...time to go a different direction.

[Mocountyskins]

Danny Smith seems to be the only coach on the sideline that knows anything about time management you always see him yelling at mike and kyle when they are in the 2 minute drill

---------- Post added January-2nd-2012 at 08:17 PM ----------

but anyway ya its pretty pathetic signed

[isle-hawg]

I don't know if it is Smith or the FO, but why do we have illegal blocks to the back almost every punt or kickoff? The last game where we had a fair catch AND a ****ing penalty for block in the back is inexcusable to me.

[KingGibbs]

Because Shanny doesn't do special teams. He doesn't do defense either, he counts on Has for that, and Danny for teams.

No, the way Danny is singled out is not just like the whole team or Oline or secondary or whatever. The personnel for FG blocking was clearly bad early and never fixed. Or even attempted to be fixed, it was the same guys getting run over every time. The kicks kept going out of bound, resulting in quick scores for the other team, and this continued. No attempt at a fix. Blocks in the back and holds happen to everyone, but again, seemingly no attempt to discipline guys, and based on the other problems-the insane way of doing these teams plays the SAME WAY over and over with no adjustment, resulting in failure...it's not hard to guess Danny's not whipping these guys into shape or even suggesting they please don't block in the back on the other side of the field.

The interaction on the sideline looks weak. Matter of fact, he's always standing next to Shanny (camera hog). He does a stupid little huddle with the team before a teams play with a generic rah rah thing. How about say "NO ****ING HOLDS".

The things describes above/in this thread... the blocked FGs, the kicks out of bounds... are NOT NORMAL. Should NOT be just brushed off like it's every other teams' problem, too. It's not. And there's no ****ing excuse, for a SPECIAL TEAMS COACH, to be given this much room for error. Some people want Shanny gone already. HEAD COACHES are axed for MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH LESS!!!!! Why is Danny Smith allowed to have one of the most penalized special teams, who also allowed league high blocks, and probably league high kicks out of bounds. Why are we dissecting it and looking at Gano, and Sellers, and Alexander, when in the real NFL world, the coach is gone after such things, no room for bull****.

I think it's because, like I said, Shanny doesn't know/do special teams. The players like him, and he's been here awhile, so he kept him. Why he'll keep him this year I can only guess is because there's no one else, or at least no one he feels would make an immediate improvement. But I don't get it. Again, a TEAM COACH is allowed to have this kind of production, and a head coach is canned for half as much...

Wow dude. Your post was horrible. Shanny "doesn't do teams?" "He doesn't do defense?" Why do you think he is the "head" coach? You do realize he oversees the entire football aspect of the organizartion, right? Do you actually believe that he is going to retain Smith due to "players liking him" if he thought his coaching was the main culprit of ST mistakes? That's assinine. Shanny might not hold the titles "special teams coach" or "defensive coordinator" but he is the de facto everything coach because he makes the final decisions and if he believes a coach on any unit isn't performing up to his standards he's certainly not going to keep him on staff when it could cost him his job.

[Devastate]

Oh hell yeah signed

[Bang]

Wow dude. Your post was horrible. Shanny "doesn't do teams?" "He doesn't do defense?" Why do you think he is the "head" coach? You do realize he oversees the entire football aspect of the organizartion, right? Do you actually believe that he is going to retain Smith due to "players liking him" if he thought his coaching was the main culprit of ST mistakes? That's assinine. Shanny might not hold the titles "special teams coach" or "defensive coordinator" but he is the de facto everything coach because he makes the final decisions and if he believes a coach on any unit isn't performing up to his standards he's certainly not going to keep him on staff when it could cost him his job.

This is the one thing i have no argument against.

Shanny does seem to like him.

I do not understand why.

But there it is.

~Bang

[Son of Gadsden]

And if Rocca can't get a good hold in, use someone else. I've heard critcism shift from Gano's kicking to the setting. I remember hearing the announcers say Gano was kicking laces in the kick that got blocked. Not saying it wouldn't have been blocked if he hadnt kicked laces, but you have to get the sets right.

PS. SIGNED.

[TSO]

This is the one thing i have no argument against.

Shanny does seem to like him.

I do not understand why.

But there it is.

~Bang

Maybe this will help:

Mike Shanahan on special teams coordinator Danny Smith:

“I think Danny’s done a great job if you take a look at his body of work. You just don’t do it this season, [but] take a look at his body of work over time. I think he’s done a great job with the special teams unit and we’re going to continue to get better. We’re pretty inexperienced at that position, which is no excuse, but we’ll keep on working to upgrade us. We’ve got to get better in that area. There’s no question about it.”

I think that pretty much sums it up. It's like I've stated, Mike views Danny's teams from the lens of a rebuild like he's doing with everything else. Unfortunately, most of us fans aren't doing the same because Danny was a holdover from Gibbs/Zorn. It's unfair to also judge him without context in those years because, again, our team has always been almost exclusively top heavy in the roster with awful depth to work with. Danny didn't get the benefit of using the solid starters we've had, only the depth we acquired through few (and poor) draft picks as well as UFAs. Furthermore, we've supplied him with nothing but awful kickers and punters the entire time with the exception of an oft-injured John Hall.

If we look at his body of work since Shanahan has come here, we can see he's helped turned Gano into a reliable kicker and Sundberg into a reliable snapper. Gano was average last season and Sundberg was pathetic. We supplied him with a legitimate punter and, poof, our punting is awesome. As we continue to build depth, I honestly believe Danny will coach a solid Special Teams.

That's not to say I wasn't disappointed this year as well. He should've done much better than he did as we've built better depth and have more talent on this roster than ever before. The blocked kicks are unacceptable, though Danny hasn't had a history of them so it's weird. I'm not going all out and defending him here. If Shanahan felt it necessary to replace him, I'd also be all for it. However, I won't be angry if he chooses to give him a little more time. It's understandable both ways.

[NoVaSkins21]

I would sign the petition the second the season ended. Some of the blunders that occurred this season have been beyond stupid. Blocked kicks, blocks in the back. :doh: Most teams usually have mistakes over the course of seasons instead of one season alone. Just PATHETIC!!!

[Frediemac]

Forget fire Danny Smith...Fire Shannahan and Bruce Allen Go get Bill Polian as fast as you can.....Make it happen yesterday....Somebody is gonna be a winner and it wont be Indy.

[Bang]

Maybe this will help:

Mike Shanahan on special teams coordinator Danny Smith:

I think that pretty much sums it up. It's like I've stated, Mike views Danny's teams from the lens of a rebuild like he's doing with everything else. Unfortunately, most of us fans aren't doing the same because Danny was a holdover from Gibbs/Zorn. It's unfair to also judge him without context in those years because, again, our team has always been almost exclusively top heavy in the roster with awful depth to work with. Danny didn't get the benefit of using the solid starters we've had, only the depth we acquired through few (and poor) draft picks as well as UFAs. Furthermore, we've supplied him with nothing but awful kickers and punters the entire time with the exception of an oft-injured John Hall.

If we look at his body of work since Shanahan has come here, we can see he's helped turned Gano into a reliable kicker and Sundberg into a reliable snapper. Gano was average last season and Sundberg was pathetic. We supplied him with a legitimate punter and, poof, our punting is awesome. As we continue to build depth, I honestly believe Danny will coach a solid Special Teams.

That's not to say I wasn't disappointed this year as well. He should've done much better than he did as we've built better depth and have more talent on this roster than ever before. The blocked kicks are unacceptable, though Danny hasn't had a history of them so it's weird. I'm not going all out and defending him here. If Shanahan felt it necessary to replace him, I'd also be all for it. However, I won't be angry if he chooses to give him a little more time. It's understandable both ways.

No, that doesn't help.

Let's look at his body of work since Shanahan has been here, since we'll give him a pas for his failures of the other five years (i don't, but for the sake of argument..)

Double digit missed kicks two years in a row.

He managed to turn Gano into a kicker, I guess, but he's managed to turn his line into swiss cheese, and we've still got double digit missed field goals. (3 of the last 5 years we've had double digit missed field goals.) His return units and coverage units are constantly plagued with penalties.

Not by inexperienced players. Not by bad depth guys.

Guys like Lorenzo Alexander, Byron Westbrook, Mike Sellers.. these guys commit penalties. Ungodly, inexcusable penalties in bad situations.

These guys, even if we want to claim they're poor players (we had one of them up for Pro Bowl considration on this site..), have been on Smith's special teams for years.

Lorenzo Alexander has no excuse blocking in the back. Kerayon Fox was flagged yesterday for it. He was a Special Teams captain in Pittsburgh.

Anthony Armstrong was flagged for blocking in the back yesterday as well.

Mike Sellers has no business lining up offsides on a punt last week, but there he was, giving the Vikings a first down before the snap.

If it were consistently just young players making these errors, I'd see that. But it's not. It's everyone on our special teams making amateur-hour penalties.

And it's consistently a problem.

one reason our roster is such a mess isbecause of consistent turnover in coaching.

Except there has been no turnover in special teams coaching, and he's had more than a few of these players, like the ones mentioned above, for practically his entire tenure.

The problems of using backups and rookies are problems every ST coach must deal with. It's the nature of the job. Granted, our personel has been bad.

But so many missed kicks, so many years in the bottom of the NFl in FG %,, so many years among the worst in ST penalties.. so many mistakes (like kicking OOB) that are DIRECTLY on him... so many blocked kicks, for cryin' out loud...

The problems are not getting better.

~Bang

[TSO]

No, that doesn't help.

Let's look at his body of work since Shanahan has been here, since we'll give him a pas for his failures of the other five years (i don't, but for the sake of argument..)

Double digit missed kicks two years in a row.

He managed to turn Gano into a kicker, I guess, but he's managed to turn his line into swiss cheese, and we've still got double digit missed field goals. (3 of the last 5 years we've had double digit missed field goals.) His return units and coverage units are constantly plagued with penalties.

Not by inexperienced players. Not by bad depth guys.

Guys like Lorenzo Alexander, Byron Westbrook, Mike Sellers.. these guys commit penalties. Ungodly, inexcusable penalties in bad situations.

These guys, even if we want to claim they're poor players (we had one of them up for Pro Bowl considration on this site..), have been on Smith's special teams for years.

Lorenzo Alexander has no excuse blocking in the back. Kerayon Fox was flagged yesterday for it. He was a Special Teams captain in Pittsburgh.

Anthony Armstrong was flagged for blocking in the back yesterday as well.

Mike Sellers has no business lining up offsides on a punt last week, but there he was, giving the Vikings a first down before the snap.

If it were consistently just young players making these errors, I'd see that. But it's not. It's everyone on our special teams making amateur-hour penalties.

And it's consistently a problem.

one reason our roster is such a mess isbecause of consistent turnover in coaching.

Except there has been no turnover in special teams coaching, and he's had more than a few of these players, like the ones mentioned above, for practically his entire tenure.

The problems of using backups and rookies are problems every ST coach must deal with. It's the nature of the job. Granted, our personel has been bad.

But so many missed kicks, so many years in the bottom of the NFl in FG %,, so many years among the worst in ST penalties.. so many mistakes (like kicking OOB) that are DIRECTLY on him... so many blocked kicks, for cryin' out loud...

The problems are not getting better.

~Bang

You said you didn't get why Shanahan sticks with him. I was trying to help you out with a direct quote from him about it.

I never said to give him a pass for his "past failures" (and he hasn't been a failure in the past, that's way over the top). I just said it should be looked at within the context of the awful depth we've had for years until recently (this last offseason). That depth is what Danny had to work with. Again, the logic is simple. We all acknowledge the awful depth that has plagued our roster since Vinny was our GM, creating a top heavy roster with no one capable backing anyone up. We all acknowledge that Special Teams is a unit comprised exclusively from depth players. If A and B, then C. Basic Logic. Both A and B are true, so C should follow (that Danny's units were going to be all the worse for it).

Why this is so hard to understand I don't know.

You're failing to consider how much more differently Mike views the roster than you. You may look at guys like Sellers, Alexander and Westbrook as consistent performers on ST but maybe Mike sees one player who's on the decline (Sellers), another who's great and usually performs as such (Alexander); and another who has minimal talent (Westbrook) as who Danny has been given consistently to work with. Then he has nothing but new players to teach after that for the most part. Maybe Mike knows what Danny is being given to work with and understands he needs better, which is why he's not as harsh as you are. Which is why you can't seem to grasp why Mike is giving Danny time.

And I think you're exaggerating Sellers' and Alexander's penalties. They're few and far in between. Byron Westbrook commits a bunch more I believe, which may be more about his skills than anything else. But either way, I get it. So does Shanahan, but the difference is, and what I'm trying to help you understand, is there's more to it. His body of work is much more vast than those negatives you pointed out. Furthermore, they take no account of the rebuilding going on. Again, every other coach gets the benefit of doubt because of all the roster turnover and youth yet there is ZERO MENTION of that from you. Why did you make a thread a few weeks ago praising Danny and retracting your previous statements about him if all he's done is bad things under Shanahan? Why do you downplay the improvement from Gano and Sundberg, our coverage units, Lorenzo Alexander's consistently excellent play, Banks emergence last year, etc... but focus only on the negative?

A good example of your excessive downplaying occurred in this thread. Someone mentioned how we had no returns against us this year. You replied with something along the lines of "well, he saved us from six but cost us 30 points in blocked/missed kicks and returns called back" or whatever. If that's not an unfair assessment I don't know what is. By your logic, if all those points go against him than we should take the worst coverage unit in the league, add up how many returns for TDs they've allowed throughout the entire course of the season, and then say "Danny saved us from that amount of points". It's extreme either way.

I get it, there have been a lot of things that have been unacceptable from Danny's unit, especially this year with the blocked kicks... but I think everything else is a bit overboard. The block in the backs happen with every team. I can't tell you how many times I've seen a team return a punt/kickoff only for it to get called back in all the other games I watch. It happens all the time. I think the frustrations for us are amplified because it's been years since we've had a threat that can take it to the house and now that we do, they almost always get called back. That does suck but I see it all the time. It's a part of special teams. Heck, from just watching our games I can't tell you how many times the opposing team had a big return against us only for it to get called back. I have a sigh of relief almost once a game when it comes to that.

Sure, we can do better... but this belief that Danny is holding this team back and that he should get fired is too harsh of a belief. I'm willing to give Danny one more year to see how he does with a little more continuity and better depth players. Last offseason was a big step for depth on this team and Danny's units should be the major benefactor from it. I expected more because of that, but it didn't go as smoothly as expected. That's why I get where you're coming from and I'm not claiming Danny is the best coach for us right now. However, I'm willing to exercise a little more patience than you are for the reasons stated above.

[Bang]

I never said to give him a pass for his "past failures" (and he hasn't been a failure in the past, that's way over the top).

No, it is not, and I've laid out the stats that show it.

Seriously, does this stuff just get ignored?

7 years here.

4 times dead last in fg%. Never better than 19th.

Doesn't this qualify as ther past?

Earlier in the season we had a thread in which people painstakingly charted penalties. Going back his entire time here we're one of the worst penalized special teams in the nfl. No one is making this up.

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?354019

Over 7 years, up until finally buying a ready made pro-bowl caliber punter, our punting average has been TERRIBLE. well under 40 yards.

Going back, in 2010, for net average we ranked 30th.

2009 we ranked 27th.

2008 we ranked 31st

2007 21st

2006 21st

2005 20th.

So, to sum up the kicking game. Pathetic. Pathetic field goal percentage, pathetic punting. By the numbers. Dregs of the NFL.

How is it over the top to hold his actual results up to the light? I'm not making any of this up. All of these stats are easily found right there on NFL.com.

You say it's too harsh to fire him.

I say look at his performance. By the numbers. By the results.

the rose colored glasses simply can't hide it. You just have to see it.

I just said it should be looked at within the context of the awful depth we've had for years until recently (this last offseason). That depth is what Danny had to work with. Again, the logic is simple. We all acknowledge the awful depth that has plagued our roster since Vinny was our GM, creating a top heavy roster with no one capable backing anyone up. We all acknowledge that Special Teams is a unit comprised exclusively from depth players. If A and B, then C. Basic Logic. Both A and B are true, so C should follow (that Danny's units were going to be all the worse for it).

I'm sorry,, are we not noticing WHO is committing the penalties, and how LONG they've ben here?

Honestly, i write these things, with actual numbers and names, and it's like it flies right on by.

depth is what every ST coach in the league has to deal with. Period.

People love to hold up that he has good coverages.

Well, it can't be both ways.

they can't be bad depth players when they **** up, and danny's a great guy because they can cover kicks.

Patience... seven years bud. Seven years of not just bad special teams, but bottom of the NFL special teams.

Patience indeed.

Why this is so hard to understand I don't know.

And I think you're exaggerating Sellers' and Alexander's penalties. They're few and far in between. Byron Westbrook commits a bunch more I believe, which may be more about his skills than anything else.

Few and far between makes no damn difference at all.

Mike Sellers lines UP offsides.

Pre-snap. PRE-SNAP. I don't care if he only does it ONCE, for a player of his years and his experience, it is simply inexcusable. But as far as our ST goes, it is just another in a long line of constant penlaties. It is indicative of the unit as a whole, and how sloppy it is, was, and has been for the last seven years.

Alexander blocking in the back.. who cares how often... he's a vet of these teams for how many years? That penalty is one no one understands. If you can read his name, don't hit him. But they do. Over and over and over. Vets and youth alike.

the fact Lorenzo did it yesterday is simply another indication, regardless of how many times he gets flagged, he should not be getting flagged for such brainless penalties.

Lack of discipline all across the special teams.

But either way, I get it. So does Shanahan, but the difference is, and what I'm trying to help you understand, is there's more to it. His body of work is much more vast than those negatives you pointed out.

Please elaborate.

Please explain this vastness. I have shown that in nearly every recordable stat for special teams, we're among the league worst for his entire tenure.

I have shown this with numbers that show actual results.

I keep hearing things like "his body of work is much more vast" but no one ever gives me any examples of this.

Furthermore, they take no account of the rebuilding going on. Again, every other coach gets the benefit of doubt because of all the roster turnover and youth yet there is ZERO MENTION of that from you.

How many of the other coaches have been here for seven years?

Oh, no one else?

How many of them have had their units place so badly year after year after year in key areas?

Oh, none of them?

maybe this is why I don't mention them with impatience yet.

give them seven years and still show me one of the worst special teams in football (or whichever unit) and I'll want them fired.

His special teams cost us games. Period. He makes mistakes, not his players, that cost us football games. He calls for directional kicks. He can't keep a defense out of his holder's lap.

and after seven years of seeing no improvement, time's up.

Why did you make a thread a few weeks ago praising Danny and retracting your previous statements about him if all he's done is bad things under Shanahan? Why do you downplay the improvement from Gano and Sundberg, our coverage units, Lorenzo Alexander's consistently excellent play, Banks emergence last year, etc... but focus only on the negative?

Banks emergence was last year. This year... nothing.

Returners are like that. You have to constantly be on the lookout for them. Rarely do they last as a major threat for a number of years. Most are flashes in the pan.

This year he "leads the NFL in kickoff return yards".

he's also returned ten more kickoffs than anyone else in the NFL.

I am of the thinking that unless you come up with a Devin Hester, you look for a guy every year. Banks showed me this year that he can be alright.. but how many of his long ones this year were called back? About half of them that he took over 20 yards came back due to yet anther bad penalty.

Nbow, that can be viewed a couple ways.

One, our ST keeps committing bad penalties that cost us valuable field position.

or, Banks can't get loose without a penalty to spring him.

(I prefer the first reason.) I like Banks. His two reverses in the last two weeks show me he's a weapon that can be used in a variety of ways, and he should stay here. He can flip the field and score from anywhere. (and, of course, he did get a 50 yard Td vs minnesota called back due to a supposed hold on Darrel Young... which, IMO, was probably the third worst non-foul i saw called all year (behind Fletcher's legal hit of Brady, and Doughty's touching of Avant yesterday that got called for unnecessary roughness.)

I am in Gano's corner, i think he's a fine kicker, but his coach holds him back.

So, if you're going to say I 'downplay' this, I'm going to have ot insist you read my posts, because it's clear you're not. My praise of Gano has been steadily growing since the Cards game.

I, the king of Danny haters,made a dedicated thread midway thru the season to give some praise, mainly because of how impressed i've been with Gano. That's it.

I tried to roll it all up in a pastry of Benefit-of-the-Doubt for Smith... but 6 blocked kicks later, six kicks out of bounds, and forget it.

Keep Gano, get rid of his anchor. er. coach.

if anyone still believes i do not like Gano, or am donwplaying Gano, they simply aren't paying attention.

I have mentioned Gano over and over, praised him agsain and again. i have laid out why I feel Danny holds him back, with numbers and examples.

Sundberg.. man, long snaper is the lowest position on a football team. Every team has one. Every team makes the overwhelming majority of their long snaps with no problem.

Yay. the fact we can also do it without ****ing it up is now reason for praise?

man, the bar is low.

I get it, there have been a lot of things that have been unacceptable from Danny's unit, especially this year with the blocked kicks... but I think everything else is a bit overboard. The block in the backs happen with every team. I can't tell you how many times I've seen a team return a punt/kickoff only for it to get called back in all the other games I watch. It happens all the time. I think the frustrations for us are amplified because it's been years since we've had a threat that can take it to the house and now that we do, they almost always get called back. That does suck but I see it all the time. It's a part of special teams.

Well again. I've shown the numbers.

This thread

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?354019

from earlier in the year will show you the penalty numbers. Sure it happens to everyone. It just happens to us more than most of the rest, and the research in that thread will show it.

Sure, we can do better... but this belief that Danny is holding this team back and that he should get fired is too harsh of a belief. I'm willing to give Danny one more year to see how he does with a little more continuity and better depth players. Last offseason was a big step for depth on this team and Danny's units should be the major benefactor from it. I expected more because of that, but it didn't go as smoothly as expected. That's why I get where you're coming from and I'm not claiming Danny is the best coach for us right now. However, I'm willing to exercise a little more patience than you are for the reasons stated above.

Seven years is long enough.

~Bang

[FSUSkins24]

Get the bum out of here. Rocca was one of the few redeeming qualities this year, but Smith didn't have a hand in that.

Signed.

[TSO]

No, it is not, and I've laid out the stats that show it.

Seriously, does this stuff just get ignored?

7 years here.

4 times dead last in fg%. Never better than 19th.

Doesn't this qualify as ther past?

Earlier in the season we had a thread in which people painstakingly charted penalties. Going back his entire time here we're one of the worst penalized special teams in the nfl. No one is making this up.

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?354019

Over 7 years, up until finally buying a ready made pro-bowl caliber punter, our punting average has been TERRIBLE. well under 40 yards.

Going back, in 2010, for net average we ranked 30th.

2009 we ranked 27th.

2008 we ranked 31st

2007 21st

2006 21st

2005 20th.

So, to sum up the kicking game. Pathetic. Pathetic field goal percentage, pathetic punting. By the numbers. Dregs of the NFL.

How is it over the top to hold his actual results up to the light? I'm not making any of this up. All of these stats are easily found right there on NFL.com.

You say it's too harsh to fire him.

I say look at his performance. By the numbers. By the results.

the rose colored glasses simply can't hide it. You just have to see it.

I hate myself for getting into this with you, lol. It's not worth it and I went against my word earlier... but I must defend myself now.

You see the part where I bolded and red-ed, right? Therein lies the flaw in your logic. We've failed miserably at giving him decent kickers/punters. As soon as he gets one, he looks good. He looked good when Hall was kicking as well, but he couldn't stay healthy. After Hall we had nothing but failed kicker after failed kicker. As for punters, we've had Frost, Brooks and a bunch of other random guys. The two decent punters we sign (Smith and now Rocca) he's done well with... surprise surprise.

You've argued that it's his fault and that he should be able to develop guys but that argument falls flat because those kickers/punters never went on to do anything else on any other team. Shaun Suisham is the only exception, and he actually did fairly well under Danny. In fact, you could say Suisham established himself as a legit kicker under Danny.

You've then argued that he has a say in personnel, thus, it's his fault we've had stinky kickers/punters. Well, that's mere speculation. We don't know how much of a say he has and, to disprove that notion, we've consistently brought in other guys to compete for those spots. That can be used to say that he wanted to find others and knew what he had wasn't up to par.

I'm sorry,, are we not noticing WHO is committing the penalties, and how LONG they've ben here?

Honestly, i write these things, with actual numbers and names, and it's like it flies right on by.

depth is what every ST coach in the league has to deal with. Period.

People love to hold up that he has good coverages.

Well, it can't be both ways.

they can't be bad depth players when they **** up, and danny's a great guy because they can cover kicks.

Patience... seven years bud. Seven years of not just bad special teams, but bottom of the NFL special teams.

Patience indeed.

Why this is so hard to understand I don't know.

I'll forgive that slight at the end... I probably deserved it.

WHO and how LONG isn't as important as their talent level. He's been given little to work with. Period. You have yet to acknowledge the simple logic I've presented a bunch of times now; that ST is based on depth and we've had awful depth. By default, he's been handcuffed.

Few and far between makes no damn difference at all.

Mike Sellers lines UP offsides.

Pre-snap. PRE-SNAP. I don't care if he only does it ONCE, for a player of his years and his experience, it is simply inexcusable. But as far as our ST goes, it is just another in a long line of constant penlaties. It is indicative of the unit as a whole, and how sloppy it is, was, and has been for the last seven years.

Alexander blocking in the back.. who cares how often... he's a vet of these teams for how many years? That penalty is one no one understands. If you can read his name, don't hit him. But they do. Over and over and over. Vets and youth alike.

the fact Lorenzo did it yesterday is simply another indication, regardless of how many times he gets flagged, he should not be getting flagged for such brainless penalties.

Lack of discipline all across the special teams.

Few and far in between makes no difference? Are you serious? You state that the long-tenured guys commit mistakes. I respond with the fact that they're few and far in between, much less than the guys who haven't been around. How is that not important?

You act as if Special Teams penalties never occur by even the best players who play on those teams. Sellers and Alexander committed a couple penalties last couple games... ok, that's inexcusable but they're not the ones consistently doing it. That does count for something, Bang.

Please elaborate.

Please explain this vastness. I have shown that in nearly every recordable stat for special teams, we're among the league worst for his entire tenure.

I have shown this with numbers that show actual results.

I keep hearing things like "his body of work is much more vast" but no one ever gives me any examples of this.

Ask Shanahan. He's the one who said it. :pfft:

Joking aside, I already have elaborated. He's developed Gano and Sundberg the last couple years. Banks emerged under him. Remember, Banks had a severe fumbling problem and under Danny that has been made irrelevant. His coverage units have been consistently solid. Remember the 07 game against the Bears when Devin Hester was tearing up every team, game after game? Who was the first unit to shut him down? Yup, Danny's. Believe me, if we were giving up huge chunks of yards time after time and TD returns like the Colts or something, you'd attribute more importance to this. Since we don't. you take it for granted.

Ok, maybe that was harsh. You don't really take it for granted since you've mentioned it quite a few times. You're such a sweetheart. :pfft:

Oh, no one else?

How many of them have had their units place so badly year after year after year in key areas?

Oh, none of them?

maybe this is why I don't mention them with impatience yet.

give them seven years and still show me one of the worst special teams in football (or whichever unit) and I'll want them fired.

His special teams cost us games. Period. He makes mistakes, not his players, that cost us football games. He calls for directional kicks. He can't keep a defense out of his holder's lap.

and after seven years of seeing no improvement, time's up.

I'll give you the directional kicks that have failed. That was stupid. But he's done that before, especially with Suisham, and it was quite a boost for our coverage units. Let's not act like his directional kicks have never worked. Last year they also helped us a lot.

Banks emergence was last year. This year... nothing.

Returners are like that. You have to constantly be on the lookout for them. Rarely do they last as a major threat for a number of years. Most are flashes in the pan.

This year he "leads the NFL in kickoff return yards".

he's also returned ten more kickoffs than anyone else in the NFL.

I am of the thinking that unless you come up with a Devin Hester, you look for a guy every year. Banks showed me this year that he can be alright.. but how many of his long ones this year were called back? About half of them that he took over 20 yards came back due to yet anther bad penalty.

Nbow, that can be viewed a couple ways.

One, our ST keeps committing bad penalties that cost us valuable field position.

or, Banks can't get loose without a penalty to spring him.

(I prefer the first reason.) I like Banks. His two reverses in the last two weeks show me he's a weapon that can be used in a variety of ways, and he should stay here. He can flip the field and score from anywhere. (and, of course, he did get a 50 yard Td vs minnesota called back due to a supposed hold on Darrel Young... which, IMO, was probably the third worst non-foul i saw called all year (behind Fletcher's legal hit of Brady, and Doughty's touching of Avant yesterday that got called for unnecessary roughness.)

Come on, Banks is still solid. Don't undervalue him simply because he had a worse season than last. He still showed some flashes, and you still have to credit Danny for that. Especially his improvement on ball security.

I am in Gano's corner, i think he's a fine kicker, but his coach holds him back.

So, if you're going to say I 'downplay' this, I'm going to have ot insist you read my posts, because it's clear you're not. My praise of Gano has been steadily growing since the Cards game.

I, the king of Danny haters,made a dedicated thread midway thru the season to give some praise, mainly because of how impressed i've been with Gano. That's it.

I tried to roll it all up in a pastry of Benefit-of-the-Doubt for Smith... but 6 blocked kicks later, six kicks out of bounds, and forget it.

Keep Gano, get rid of his anchor. er. coach.

if anyone still believes i do not like Gano, or am donwplaying Gano, they simply aren't paying attention.

I have mentioned Gano over and over, praised him agsain and again. i have laid out why I feel Danny holds him back, with numbers and examples.

Sundberg.. man, long snaper is the lowest position on a football team. Every team has one. Every team makes the overwhelming majority of their long snaps with no problem.

Yay. the fact we can also do it without ****ing it up is now reason for praise?

man, the bar is low.

I'm saying you're downplaying everything IN THIS THREAD. Contrary to your self-flattering insinuations, I don't follow your every post. Though I do love me some Bang.

As for Sundberg, we got rid of our long snapper Ethan Albright who was as consistent as the definition of the word. Sundberg had some growing pains to no fault of Danny's. He was new at it and was inaccurate early last year. He became consistent. I'm just saying that Danny had something to do with that, that's all.

Well again. I've shown the numbers.

This thread

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?354019

from earlier in the year will show you the penalty numbers. Sure it happens to everyone. It just happens to us more than most of the rest, and the research in that thread will show it.

~Bang

No, Bang, those stats in that thread only showed a comparison to the Cowboys Special Teams as far as I recall. It wasn't a general comparison. Virtually everyone arguing against GHH's proposed hypothesis was asking for a general comparison to the NFL because, without that, the analysis is incomplete. By all standards of scientific analysis, that's just poor. Furthermore, they have no bearing on the simple logic I keep mentioning... namely that Danny has had little to work with his entire tenure here. The Cowboys, on the other hand, have had much better depth than us and by that alone should give their Special Teams a boost.

.... I went through that thread again and there were some posters who attempted to give the stats of other teams. Here's what I found:

Someone had mentioned that, in 2009, the Eagles committed a whopping 26 Special Teams penalties. Danny HAS NEVER committed that many in one season. Another one was the Raiders in 2010 with 18 penalties, comparable to Danny's unit. The Steeelers, who have great depth as well, committed 21 penalties in 2010. Guess who had the least penalties in comparison? The Patriots. Surprise! Perhaps the team with the most depth in the league!

Another interesting point pops out when reading the stats presented in that thread. Danny had his best two years here under Zorn. Why is that so intriguing? Well, under Zorn we had virtually no roster turnover but for the first time ever (for Danny as a Redskin) we had two complete drafts, bringing in a breadth of young guys. So he got roster continuity AND a bunch of young guys to coach up. That's only occurred under Zorn. Another shocker. :pfft:

So you can keep pointing at "stats" to justify your criticisms and ignore my points, but I can too. That's the funny thing with stats a lot of the times. Here's a final stat posted by someone in that thread for some food for thought (we'll call it dessert ):

With plays per penalty, a higher number is better because it means you have more clean plays. Over the course of Danny Smith's 7 years the average ST plays per penalty breaks out as follows:

Redskins 20.37

Giants 18.71

Eagles 17.84

Cowboys 17.50

Hrm...according to this stat, it appears that we have the HIGHEST number of ST plays/penalty incurred. That's a good thing, right? Here's why the compairson's important: If Danny Smith's ST consistently have lower penalties than the rest of the division, then he's doing something better than the other ST coaches. Yeah, you always want to be better, but if he's the best there is, then why would you go elsewhere?

So, in the NFC East, guess who had the least amount of penalties per ST play? Yup, Danny Smith's unit. It's no wonder why Andy Reid wanted to go hard after him a few years back.

[aREDSKIN]

Danny Smith teams' have been just god awful. I'm not sure how anybody can not see that let alone defend this guy. His teams performances speak for themselves. It's the most perplexing thing to try and understand why this guy still has a job in this organization. He is abysmal, his teams performance have been abysmal for years, the special teams' have cost us games for years. Danny smith needs to go. Consider me a signer of the petition.

[ixcuincle]

I remember watching the Shanahan TV show earlier this season and they were talking about how great a coach Danny Smith was and I started laughing at the TV.

All these gaffes on special teams over the last couple of years...get the **** out Danny Smith

[Burgold]

Danny Smith's punt coverage and kickoff teams have usually been adequate. It's the blocking schemes that he seems to fail with.

How often do we let the gunner completely free to clobber the PR. How long did he let Randle El fair catch his way through a season or dance side line to sideline for three yard returns? Why was he an immediately better PR when he went back to the Steelers?

As to punter, Vinny may not have found him the best prospects, but Smith is the guy choosing between the prospects. Almost every other team at the drop of the hat can find a serviceable punter or make one. Crazy that this is the first year that we've had decent punting possibly since Matt Turk.

And for all the love Sav got... he was fantastic comparitively. He dropped a lot inside the twenty, but how often did he pin a team inside the five. His inside the twenty was often between the ten and the twenty. Sav did a good job, but it was his steadiness that made us love him. He wasn't the guy booming 80 yarders.

[ixcuincle]

The Redskins haven't had a good PR or KR since Brian Mitchell. The Redskins also haven't had a good kicker throughout Smith's tenure.

There is no reason he should have been retained.

[skins2323]

I really dont understand how this guy continually keeps his job. His Speacial Teams are from Special, in fact they are many instances poor and undisciplined. It doesnt really matter who you have back there returning kicks, because their is a 95% chance that it willl called back anyway due to his undisciplined team. Also, when the last time we had a good Kicker? Thats his job too. Dont you think its fishy that Suisham sucked so bad here, goes to a new team and is a stud?

His blocking assignment sucks (hence the blocked kicks), his Kickers have ALWAYS sucked (obviously cant coach them up) his teams are often penalized (undisciplined). Whens the last time you remember us blocking a punt? I cant EVER remember one during his tenure. Its time for new blood in the Special Teams Area...

[Bang]

I hate myself for getting into this with you, lol. It's not worth it and I went against my word earlier... but I must defend myself now.

You see the part where I bolded and red-ed, right? Therein lies the flaw in your logic. We've failed miserably at giving him decent kickers/punters. As soon as he gets one, he looks good. He looked good when Hall was kicking as well, but he couldn't stay healthy. After Hall we had nothing but failed kicker after failed kicker. As for punters, we've had Frost, Brooks and a bunch of other random guys. The two decent punters we sign (Smith and now Rocca) he's done well with... surprise surprise.

You've argued that it's his fault and that he should be able to develop guys but that argument falls flat because those kickers/punters never went on to do anything else on any other team. Shaun Suisham is the only exception, and he actually did fairly well under Danny. In fact, you could say Suisham established himself as a legit kicker under Danny.

You've then argued that he has a say in personnel, thus, it's his fault we've had stinky kickers/punters. Well, that's mere speculation. We don't know how much of a say he has and, to disprove that notion, we've consistently brought in other guys to compete for those spots. That can be used to say that he wanted to find others and knew what he had wasn't up to par.

Always a good debate my man.

I flat reject the notion that we have the only special teams coach with no say in finding his specialists.

And if he is that one spineless guy, that further reinforces why I don't want him.

every ST coach in the NFL has say in his specialists.

To suggest he does not is to suggest something so unfathomable that I can't even begin to understand why anyone would believe it to be true. He's not a minor position coach. He runs the third unit of the team, and it has specialists just like offense and defense. And to expect he has no say in his kicker or punter is to expect Jim Haslett has no say in who we draft for defense, etc. Gregg Williams had no say.. Gibbs had no say.. Zorn maybe had no say.. but I doubt it.

This coach, with all the respect of Joe Gibbs, and according to every one of his supporters a whole lot of other coaches who keep trying to snag him away.. this man has had NO say in who his kicker is.. this is what I'm being asked to swallow along with all of this professed respect from these high level coaches.

He's developed this reputation by sitting back, and waiting while his front office hand picks his specialists for him.

This is so far against any logical approach to any football team it defies comprehension for me.

WHO and how LONG isn't as important as their talent level. He's been given little to work with. Period. You have yet to acknowledge the simple logic I've presented a bunch of times now; that ST is based on depth and we've had awful depth. By default, he's been handcuffed.

we'll agree to disagree. when guys who are longtime vets of these units keep making stupid penalties, there's a problem. And it's not that they have sucked for all these years but we have no one better.

Every spedcial teams coach in the league works with the young and the backups. On our squad, several guys, like Alexander or Sellers or Westbrook have stayed on this team because of their special teams contributions.

And yet they keep making mistakes.

Few and far in between makes no difference? Are you serious? You state that the long-tenured guys commit mistakes. I respond with the fact that they're few and far in between, much less than the guys who haven't been around. How is that not important?

The problem is that it's someone EVERY single week, and it costs us big. So no, I don't care who it is or how long they've been here. They're poorly coached. Period.

You act as if Special Teams penalties never occur by even the best players who play on those teams. Sellers and Alexander committed a couple penalties last couple games... ok, that's inexcusable but they're not the ones consistently doing it. That does count for something, Bang.

Not when you add up the total performance of Smith's unit.

It's abysmal. And penalties are a part of that. Too many excuses being handed out like halloween candy.

Demand better. It's entirely possible.

Ask Shanahan. He's the one who said it. :pfft:

I do not get their infatuation.. i must admit.

Joking aside, I already have elaborated. He's developed Gano and Sundberg the last couple years. Banks emerged under him. Remember, Banks had a severe fumbling problem and under Danny that has been made irrelevant. His coverage units have been consistently solid. Remember the 07 game against the Bears when Devin Hester was tearing up every team, game after game? Who was the first unit to shut him down? Yup, Danny's. Believe me, if we were giving up huge chunks of yards time after time and TD returns like the Colts or something, you'd attribute more importance to this. Since we don't. you take it for granted.

I maintain he has hindered Gano. Six blocked kicks.. that doesn't happen and Gano's a top ten kicker. But as is the norm with Smith's special teams, it's always something.

This would be good IF that didn't happen... but the IF happens a lot for our special teams, and it always has.

Going back to 2007 to find me a positive isn't helping the case for him. The coverages for kickoffs.. sure we do fine. It keeps getting ignored that we kick off significantly fewer times than the majority of the league, and we have several games in which we kicked off only once.

This helps those averages. But it gets ignored.

Either way, i am plenty willing to admit we cover kicks well.

So when we do cover kickoffs well, why does it get ignored that 9 times this year Smith has attempted to re-invent the wheel, and tried directional kicking when he absolutely positively has NO reason to do it?

This part of the damnation gets lost. He gets in his own way by doing dumb stuff like this when there is absolutely no reason to do it.

There can't be a more clear example than this. Top kickoff coverage unit in the NFL this year, by the numbers. Gano is getting a touchback half the time, and when someone brings one out, we stop them cold.

Why try anything else?

Why risk giving Tom Brady the ball at the 40 in a tight game? What possible advantage can be gained by it that you can't get by kicking safely deep?

This is a major problem. This is purely a coaching problem, and it's a bad one. He overthinks, and oversteps. He sets his own people up to fail, and it costs the entire team dearly.

A good coach recognizes his strength and plays to it. Smith does not.

Ok, maybe that was harsh. You don't really take it for granted since you've mentioned it quite a few times. You're such a sweetheart. :pfft:

Nothing is personal, my man. Just football talk.

I'll give you the directional kicks that have failed. That was stupid. But he's done that before, especially with Suisham, and it was quite a boost for our coverage units. Let's not act like his directional kicks have never worked. Last year they also helped us a lot.

Last year and every year prior we were kicking from the 30 to about the 5-10 yard line. Now we're kicking from the 35 to roughly 7 yards deep regularly. the NFL gave him the advantage that was needed, and now there's no reason to risk it.

But risk it he does... to terrible effect.

Come on, Banks is still solid. Don't undervalue him simply because he had a worse season than last. He still showed some flashes, and you still have to credit Danny for that. Especially his improvement on ball security.

Well, he DID fumble on Sunday :pfft:...

I am not down on Banks. I like the guy, and he does have breakaway ability. But unfortunately this year when he did bust a big one, it got called back almost every time. I am not blaming him for this,, he's just running the ball. But damn it is frustrating to see it happen over and over.

I especially liked Banks in his small offensive role the last two weeks, and i think he showed true value there.. he flat dusted the Vikings up the sideline, and a BS holding call brought it back. (Bad call.. BAD call.) Last week against Philly he had another nice reverse and a quick bubble screen that showed me that we can work him into space, and he can be quite a weapon.

I'm saying you're downplaying everything IN THIS THREAD. Contrary to your self-flattering insinuations, I don't follow your every post. Though I do love me some Bang.

Man, back in high school i used to be able to flatter myself 4 or 5 times a day..

.

This thread is a season-ender. We can look back at everything, and if I seem to be downplaying some successes, it's because the negatives far outweigh them again.

Once again, I do like Gano. He's a keeper.

As for Sundberg, we got rid of our long snapper Ethan Albright who was as consistent as the definition of the word. Sundberg had some growing pains to no fault of Danny's. He was new at it and was inaccurate early last year. He became consistent. I'm just saying that Danny had something to do with that, that's all.

That's fine, and I am not by any means not trying to say Smith hasn't done some things right.. he's a coach at this level after all. He's not there because he's someone's nephew.

But considering long snapping is something no one really has much problem with... most long snappers have been doing it for a good while.

No, Bang, those stats in that thread only showed a comparison to the Cowboys Special Teams as far as I recall. It wasn't a general comparison. Virtually everyone arguing against GHH's proposed hypothesis was asking for a general comparison to the NFL because, without that, the analysis is incomplete. By all standards of scientific analysis, that's just poor. Furthermore, they have no bearing on the simple logic I keep mentioning... namely that Danny has had little to work with his entire tenure here. The Cowboys, on the other hand, have had much better depth than us and by that alone should give their Special Teams a boost.

As I recall, it compared a lot of different things,, people asked for specific comparisons against other teams later in the thread, and a few people did post some up, and we came up poor in each of them.

.... I went through that thread again and there were some posters who attempted to give the stats of other teams. Here's what I found:

Someone had mentioned that, in 2009, the Eagles committed a whopping 26 Special Teams penalties. Danny HAS NEVER committed that many in one season. Another one was the Raiders in 2010 with 18 penalties, comparable to Danny's unit. The Steeelers, who have great depth as well, committed 21 penalties in 2010. Guess who had the least penalties in comparison? The Patriots. Surprise! Perhaps the team with the most depth in the league!

Another interesting point pops out when reading the stats presented in that thread. Danny had his best two years here under Zorn. Why is that so intriguing? Well, under Zorn we had virtually no roster turnover but for the first time ever (for Danny as a Redskin) we had two complete drafts, bringing in a breadth of young guys. So he got roster continuity AND a bunch of young guys to coach up. That's only occurred under Zorn. Another shocker. :pfft:

So you can keep pointing at "stats" to justify your criticisms and ignore my points, but I can too. That's the funny thing with stats a lot of the times. Here's a final stat posted by someone in that thread for some food for thought (we'll call it dessert ):

So, in the NFC East, guess who had the least amount of penalties per ST play? Yup, Danny Smith's unit. It's no wonder why Andy Reid wanted to go hard after him a few years back.

See, for my money, i don't really care if the Eagles committed more penalties. They're home playing golf now, too. The Raiders are the Raiders. We should take it as a positive that we committed fewer penalties than them in that we should view it as a positive that neither you or me held up a liquor store this year for crack money.

We should never even figure on committing as many penalties as they do, and always have. Holding ourselves up against the worst to make us look better... hard to take that.

I don't have time to re-read that old thread thoroughly, but i got distinclty different conclusions from it.

I'd love to know where the ST stats you found come from,, they are very difficult to piece together,, i never found one source that would accurately list them.

The closest i could find was this

http://www.footballdb.com/penalties.html

with "other" being the only category special teams penalties would be listed in. They show us with 28 this year, but since it's just a hodgepodge, i don't know what other penalties it may count. (Obviously everything but the ones listed in the legend. Considering the legend is pretty thorough for offense and defense, I assume the 'other' category is majority ST fouls. There's a few that would be in there that we got called for that would not fall under special teams, I'm sure.. (Rex throwing two forward passes on one play a few weeks ago, for example.) but I think it's a safe assumption that at least 20 of those 28 are ST related, and i think that's a pretty conservative assumption..

This year we've actually been better at the bad Block in back fouls, etc... but six penalties for kicking OOB are directly on the guy who called the play's head. I'll assume that would be Smith. (The above and oft mentioned "avoidable penalty". No one is ever going to be totally penalty free... but when you set yourself up for costly penalties,, they're going to happen. And he had no business setting us up for those very costly penalties.

Always a good debate, and believe me, when you guys mention specifics, I am a person who will check it out. I hate to be wrong.. it's one of my character traits. Typically i don't speak unless I feel I am right. So when someone tells me I'm not, my first inclination is to see if they are seeing something I'm not, because I might be wrong.

But I've been paying particular attention to our special teams, and after so much failure for so long,, it's time to change.

~Bang

[richmond_skins]

Sign me up...Fire Danny Smith.

[SWFLSkins]

Both Bang and Submitted one have some great points in this thread. However, I am concerned that Shanahan is not motivated to changed the position at this point. Looking at Smith's body of work is disturbing to me and I don't or can't understand how change would not be good in this case. The body of work is over enough time to see the trend of underwhelming performance. I hope if he stays I am wrong, but it seems so apparent.

[NoVaSkins21]

Forget fire Danny Smith...Fire Shannahan and Bruce Allen Go get Bill Polian as fast as you can.....Make it happen yesterday....Somebody is gonna be a winner and it wont be Indy.

Honest to God, if the Skins had Zorn or some lesser known guy as head coach along with Vinny right now, then HELL YEAH!!! IMO, though the Polians are probably going to take a year off and wait for the right situation to get into, but I agree they definitely are going to transform whichever franchise they get involved with into a absolute winner.

[GoDeep81]

We need a new teams coach as bad as we need a QB... Fire the guy already!!!