WP: Charles Mann calls out Albert Haynesworth

[PCS]

Really? Uh oh. :paranoid:

[Siven]

Your questioning the intellectual merit of the views from an all time Redskin great and the relevancy there in when it comes to the continued, on going disrespect of coaches, fans and teammates alike from a man that's done next to nothing in this game.

SERIOUSLY?

Hail.

Albert Haynesworth? Next to nothing? Yeah I guess winning a defensive MVP and being the best DT in the league is next to nothing. The league and game that Mann played in is the complete opposite of the league today. Why are we crucifying Haynesworth for his huge contract? The league deemed he was apparently worth it, and if we didn't sign him to the 42 mill guaranteed and 100 million overall it would've been Tampa signing him for 40 mill guaranteed and 97 million overall. The game is different just like when Mann was earning his stripes (or feathers, more appropriately) the game was different then the 1940's and 1950's when players played football as a 2nd or 3rd job. I bet those players would've crawled backwards on their knees for what Mann was given.

The fact is, the issue isn't with Haynesworth. It's the nature of the league. Hate the game not the player as the old saying goes.

Also, since people here obviously struggle with the concept of the word voluntary I have posted its definition for everyone's benefit.

vol·un·tar·y   [vol-uhn-ter-ee] Show IPA adjective, noun, plural -tar·ies.

–adjective

1. done, made, brought about, undertaken, etc., of one's own accord or by free choice: a voluntary contribution.

2. of, pertaining to, or acting in accord with the will: voluntary cooperation.

3. of, pertaining to, or depending on voluntary action: voluntary hospitals.

4. Law .

a. acting or done without compulsion or obligation.

b. done by intention, and not by accident: voluntary manslaughter.

c. made without valuable consideration: a voluntary settlement.

5. Physiology . subject to or controlled by the will.

6. having the power of willing or choosing: a voluntary agent.

7. proceeding from a natural impulse; spontaneous: voluntary laughter.

–noun

8. something done voluntarily.

9. a piece of music, frequently spontaneous and improvised, performed as a prelude to a larger work, esp. a piece of organ music performed before, during, or after an office of the church.

This has been debated endlessly and what has it changed? Is Haynesworth attending voluntary workouts? No. EVERY year, we like to pick out scapegoats and Haynesworth has, willingly set himself up as a prime target: however, that doesn't make it any more just.

What's it going to be like when Orakpo, should he continue getting even better, request a contract in the neighborhood of 80 million guaranteed (or whatever is fair at the time), and decides to sit out before getting his big payday? Will we skewer him and defame him with the anonymity of the internet?

It's a given fact that two things society loves to do is build people up into heroes when they shouldn't be and then tear heroes down when they shouldn't be. We love to put people on a pedestal just so we can kick it out from under of them.

Is Haynesworth acting ideally? No, he's not. Is it within his right? Yes. In a country where we value the right of the individual to exercise his given rights (in this case the rights afforded to him by the league and his contract) we skewer him? If you had a contract that gave you the option to work at home rather then drive into work, I suppose you would take those days to work at home. Would it mean you might blow work off at home? Perhaps, but it also might mean you're more motivated knowing you're free of constraints and can tailor your approach to work to gel with your skills.

People wax lyrical about how he's violating and disrespecting the apparently good as gold, always right, will of Shanahan. Like Shanahan has never made a **** up and been wrong about something. You guys like to pick sides without taking an objective approach and its amazing how narrow-minded you can be. You take a short glimpse at the 'facts' which are usually just things that a small minority shout the loudest about and then decide "this is how things are supposed to be" and then go on your white knight crusade about how Haynesworth is "evil" and "destroying the fabric of the team" as if Haynesworth is the sole deciding factor of whether or not we'll have team chemistry or be able to win games. The past 10 years I've heard about how this team had "great chemistry" and was "ready to win," the same stuff we hear now and you want to know what its amounted to? Nothing.

Give it a rest. This argument has come full circle to many million times on this board. Stop arguing the same shtick over and over and over and over until your argument loses validity because it can't fundamentally be expanded upon.

If Haynesworth sucks during the season, fine, skewer him and proclaim that you were right all along: you are entitled to at least that much. But right now this is merely the mob claiming someone is guilty before innocent: much like we skewered Taylor before the 2007* season for being aloof and not showing up.

*Edit: wrong year

[Califan007 The Constipated]

But right now this is merely the mob claiming someone is guilty before innocent: much like we skewered Taylor before the 2008 season for being aloof and not showing up.

If you mean Sean Taylor, you probably don't mean before the 2008 season. Might want to change that.

[tex]

nothing but love for Charles Mann.

would not surprise me at all to discover that his statements are right on.

[Conn]

It's a given fact that two things society loves to do is build people up into heroes when they shouldn't be and then tear heroes down when they shouldn't be. We love to put people on a pedestal just so we can kick it out from under them.

I agree with a lot of what you say in this post. But this is a great quote. So true.

[s0crates]

It is not news that AH is fat and lazy. We knew that when we signed him, and if not then, then we certainly knew it after watching him miss play after play last year because he could not catch his breath. In this case, I think Mann called it right. He may have been a bit harsh considering the OTA's Haynesworth missed were only voluntary (or is it"volentary"), but I thought it was worth a good chuckle.

Hopefully AH proves me wrong, because God simply did not make very many people with that body-type.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Since when exactly has the fat man been anointed League Defensive MVP, or any other season MVP for that matter Siven? Was this a Madden season you'd like to share?

Again, for all the hype, he's done next to nothing in this game to date to justify the praise thrown his way. It must make you so proud to blindly disrespect anything that comes to hand to vainly defend the man, the latest being a HoF bound, two time SB winning HC's wishes through an all time Redskin and league great who HAS done it all in the game and then some; to continue to make the case for a current player who's a complete nobody in reality to those two men alone.

And yet again, your missing by the preverbal Country mile the point on the context of "voluntary" in every facet when it comes to pro-sports, so we'll agree to disagree to save going around in yet more circles.

Hail.

[Redskins4ever]

If Albert Haynesworth reports to Redskins Park out of shape, he'll be criticized like no other football player in the history of the NFL. If he told Mike Shanahan that he was going to work out on his own, then you have to accept his word. However if Haynesworth has been eating twinkies and donoughts and not working out, it's going to be bad.

Charles Mann should call Haynesworth out.

[countryboy]

My guess is that Charles Mann's views would be reflected by a significant number - possibly a large majority - of the current Redskin team. I don't say that because I have any contacts whatever within the team - I'm several thousand miles away - but because human psychology, and team dynamics are the same everywhere.

Surely it's obvious: if you're the guy who makes the most money on a team (or in any business), there are two ways to go. Either, you take the view that you'd better justify your dought, so you work harder, practice longer hours, study more tape than anyone else. Then you deliver on the field. That's what you could call the stand-up guy, or Peyton Manning approach. And since all that work makes Manning the guy who gets the rest of the team to the Superbowl, my guess is no one in Indianapolis resents him for his (soon to be even greater) riches.

OR ... you decide that once you've signed the contract and picked up a guarantee big enough to keep you in fancy speedboats for life, you don't have to do much more of anything. And you also figure that the money is proof that your better than everyone else around you and entitled to more than them and can do whatever the hell you like. And that's the raging a-hole, or Albert Haynesworth approach. And when you're coming off a 4-12 season, which you've not done a whole lot to turn around, it's liable to make the other 52 guys hold you in serious contempt.

Everyone knows what the situation is in DC. Last year was a humiliating disaster. This year is all about restoring a little pride and dignity to the franchise, its players, its coaches and its fans. All the other players on the roster - even the ones that have not signed contract offers - have bought into the simple notion that no one's going to get anywhere unless they work their butts off, individually and as a group. They've got a new system to learn, new coaches to impress and a whole new attitude to adopt.

So even if OTA's and mini-camps have been voluntary in theory, 99% of players have treated them as compulsory. And I'll bet they feel better for that. They feel stronger, more focused, more trusting of the other guys all around them. Every on and off-the-record quote coming out of the Skins this off-season suggests that.

And then you have the 1% ... Albert Haynesworth. He's acting like a big cry-baby. He's all upset because Shanahan wants a 3-4 defense and Baby Bertie doesn't like it. So he's throwing all his toys out of the pram and running off to his own private playhouse to stamp his feet in private.

Simple question to any Haynesworth supporters. How would you feel if you were sweating hard at work and the guy with the biggest paycheck was sitting at home?

Now how do you think the other Redskins feel? And what kind of regard do you think Mike Shanahan has for Albert Haynesworth as a player, a professional and a man?

My guess is that the word 'respect' isn't used much when people talk about Haynesworth, except when they're saying how little they have for him.

So Haynesworth groupies had better get over it ... Charles Mann is right

[NewCliche21]

Actually, a helluva lot of people were pissed the eff OFF that Haynesworth chose to work out on his own. Before there was even one voluntary minicamp we had scores of threads trashing Haynesworth over his wanting to train with his own guys instead of with the team. Most criticisms said that it was just an excuse, that the real reason was because AH was "fat and lazy", that he placed himself "above the team" for not working out with them, and that he used the same training team last year and "still showed up out of shape".

It's only recently that the criticisms changed to "Well, working out by himself is not the issue" lol...If I had even an ounce of desire I'd go back and bump all the threads from after the first team voluntary workouts that slammed Haynesworth for not showing up.

(EARTHQUAKE AS I TYPE THIS!! LOL :paranoid: )

I was pissed off that he chose to work out by himself because he should have been with the team. Please go back and find where I've said differently before you lump everyone together.

[budski]

countryboy is right on the money.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

I was pissed off that he chose to work out by himself because he should have been with the team. Please go back and find where I've said differently before you lump everyone together.

What the...were you responding to me? lol

I was merely responding to the assertion that hardly anyone really cared that Haynesworth was working out on his own ("Very few people on ES care about AH attending the offseason workout program"). My response was to remind that poster that a LOT of people were upset with Haynesworth for working out on his own, and that the idea that nobody really cared if he worked out on his own is relatively new--you didn't really start hearing that until the voluntary minicamps started taking place.

I appreciate you validating my claim that people were indeed upset with where Haynesworth worked out, though lol :thumbsup:

[MustangSteve]

Hopefully this won't turn into the LaVar-Portis level trash talk. I respect his opinion and understand where he's coming from, and hopefully it will motivate AH to show him up, but I can see this just turning into another distraction off the field, which we don't need it to be. Too many players on our current roster have too big egos to let someone talk bad about them and let it slide.

On the other hand though, too many of our former players are trying to stir up trouble where we don't need it. Granted, they have room to talk as they are some of the greats, but do we really need to start this war now? Wait till he shows up out of shape to begin the talk...

Great point hitman! Then they have all the grounds to speak out and the proof to back it up. If Haynesworth does come into camp out of shape again, it would be his last time. Every OTA and practice for a new system on a team should already be mandantory, let's just hope that Haynesworth proves everybody wrong, and has a probowl type season.

[NewCliche21]

What the...were you responding to me? lol

I was merely responding to the assertion that hardly anyone really cared that Haynesworth was working out on his own ("Very few people on ES care about AH attending the offseason workout program"). My response was to remind that poster that a LOT of people were upset with Haynesworth for working out on his own, and that the idea that nobody really cared if he worked out on his own is relatively new--you didn't really start hearing that until the voluntary minicamps started taking place.

I appreciate you validating my claim that people were indeed upset with where Haynesworth worked out, though lol :thumbsup:

As long as you remember that this board is all about me.

And that I misread your post.

[Hitman21ST]

I was pissed off that he chose to work out by himself because he should have been with the team. Please go back and find where I've said differently before you lump everyone together.

I would prefer that he work out with the team, for sure. If, however, he works out on his own (as he did) and comes to minicamp 100% in shape and full go, I will have less of an issue with it than others. I still would have preferrred that he work out wiht the team, but like in many things in sports, performance will end up negating team cohesion.

[NewCliche21]

I would prefer that he work out with the team, for sure. If, however, he works out on his own (as he did) and comes to minicamp 100% in shape and full go, I will have less of an issue with it than others. I still would have preferrred that he work out wiht the team, but like in many things in sports, performance will end up negating team cohesion.

I can see your well-put point, but I disagree with the last part. Football is unlike any other sport, especially when playing a position that six other players are dependent upon.

There's a difference between a running back knowing his line as a whole or a receiver getting rapport with his quarterback or a safety knowing when to play up; a defensive lineman affects the entire front seven, not just himself and another guy.

If I can't trust you to show up and learn the scheme, then how can I trust you with being a teammate? How can I trust you to know what the hell that you're dong? How can I know how to adjust to your style of play and vice-versa? This isn't Madden; you can't just plug and play.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Do you actually think Albert Haynesworth cares what anyone says about him?

You people are taking this dead beat story to seriously. Let the man come to this mandatory training session first before you give in to what others are jealous about - Albert makes "X" amount of money. The magic word here is VOLUNTARY, with the exception of this upcoming mini-camp.

I don't know what he cares about. My point throughout this thread is that this will NOT turn into any kind of lasting feud between Mann and Haynesworth, so no, I don't think he'll end up caring.

What I do believe though, is that this is a valid criticism coming from a dedicated and talented player like Charles Mann. It's unlike Lavar criticizing Portis since Lavar had some questionable traits and was a chronic underachiever. And it's even unlike Riggins criticizing Snyder since Riggins was also a little questionable in the dedication department.

Charles Mann had extraordinary talent but also was a consummate professional and team leader. His opinions re: the Redskins carry more weight in Washington than some character who played here for 5 years and never lived up to his draft position. Disagree?

[NewCliche21]

I don't know what he cares about. My point throughout this thread is that this will NOT turn into any kind of lasting feud between Mann and Haynesworth, so no, I don't think he'll end up caring.

What I do believe though, is that this is a valid criticism coming from a dedicated and talented player like Charles Mann. It's unlike Lavar criticizing Portis since Lavar had some questionable traits and was a chronic underachiever. And it's even unlike Riggins criticizing Snyder since Riggins was also a little questionable in the dedication department.

Charles Mann had extraordinary talent but also was a consummate professional and team leader. His opinions re: the Redskins carry more weight in Washington than some character who played here for 5 years and never lived up to his draft position. Disagree?

Impossible to disagree.

And to all of the posters saying, "Oh, well today's NFL is different so he doesn't know what he's talking about,": What did you say to your dad when he told you that life was all about hard work and dedication? Did you tell him that he didn't know what he was talking about since he grew up during a different time? Would a private tell a general to back off because this ain't Dubya Two?

Doubtful. Age and experience garner respect, not irrelevance.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

As long as you remember that this board is all about me.

And that I misread your post.

:rotflmao:...yeah, well, join the "Whoops, Misread That Post" club lol

[Henry]

Charles Mann comes from an era in Redskins history when team was paramount. Maybe they didn't have OTAs back then, but if Gibbs had organized voluntary workouts you better believe that Mann would have volunteered. He's a four-time pro-bowler, three-time SB champion and knows what the heck he's talking about. He's not Arrington or Mitchell or Clark or some fiery guy who speaks off-the-cuff. He's not Riggins who's a big lovable goof-ball, or Theismann who's a bloviating homer. Mann's the kind of guy that the room quiets down for when he speaks.

I respect his opinion very highly on this matter.

[NewCliche21]

Charles Mann comes from an era in Redskins history when team was paramount. Maybe they didn't have OTAs back then, but if Gibbs had organized voluntary workouts you better believe that Mann would have volunteered. He's a four-time pro-bowler, three-time SB champion and knows what the heck he's talking about. He's not Arrington or Mitchell or Clark or some fiery guy who speaks off-the-cuff. He's not Riggins who's a big lovable goof-ball, or Theismann who's a bloviating homer. Mann's the kind of guy that the room quiets down for when he speaks.

I respect his opinion very highly on this matter.

Extremely well put. I'm glad that you remembered your login for the board.

On the Gibbs-era players note: Remember the strikes? I can't remember if it were '87 or '82, but the players were acutally practicing together. Off the field. Out of the facilities. It wasn't even organized team activities; these guys weren't ALLOWED to officially practice, but they were STILL doing it on their own. I'm not sure if Mann were on the team at that point.

THAT is what the Redskins do. Haynesworth is the antithesis of those types of players.

[Henry]

Extremely well put. I'm glad that you remembered your login for the board.

I'm glad you remember who I am.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Charles Mann comes from an era in Redskins history when team was paramount. Maybe they didn't have OTAs back then, but if Gibbs had organized voluntary workouts you better believe that Mann would have volunteered. He's a four-time pro-bowler, three-time SB champion and knows what the heck he's talking about. He's not Arrington or Mitchell or Clark or some fiery guy who speaks off-the-cuff. He's not Riggins who's a big lovable goof-ball, or Theismann who's a bloviating homer. Mann's the kind of guy that the room quiets down for when he speaks.

I respect his opinion very highly on this matter.

I respect his opinion as well but he DID get a number of things wrong (or at the very least he seemed to be mimicking distortions in the media). Anyone, no matter who they are, who uses those same media-driven misrepresentations as a foundation for their argument loses some points in my eyes. Not overall, but in that matter. Mann's rant falls into that category for me, unfortunately.

[Conn]

I respect his opinion as well but he DID get a number of things wrong (or at the very least he seemed to be mimicking distortions in the media). Anyone, no matter who they are, who uses those same media-driven misrepresentations as a foundation for their argument loses some points in my eyes. Not overall, but in that matter. Mann's rant falls into that category for me, unfortunately.

That's exactly how I felt. The person can be the most reputable and respected source in the world on a specific topic, but if its obvious that facts are either missing or are being overlooked in the formulation of that person's opinions, then it really doesn't matter.

And really, where else would Mann have gotten his info from, other than the mainstream media? Its not like he's in the loop as far as having sources in the FO of the team. He's just as knowledgable on this topic as anyone else (who hasn't done their research), except that he has a background that gives his opinion weight.

That's why that ESPN aritcle citing Mann's comments as a sign that AH might be traded after all, was a joke.

[NewCliche21]

I respect his opinion as well but he DID get a number of things wrong (or at the very least he seemed to be mimicking distortions in the media). Anyone, no matter who they are, who uses those same media-driven misrepresentations as a foundation for their argument loses some points in my eyes. Not overall, but in that matter. Mann's rant falls into that category for me, unfortunately.

That's exactly how I felt. The person can be the most reputable and respected source in the world on a specific topic, but if its obvious that facts are either missing or are being overlooked in the formulation of that person's opinions, then it really doesn't matter.

And really, where else would Mann have gotten his info from, other than the mainstream media? Its not like he's in the loop as far as having sources in the FO of the team. He's just as knowledgable on this topic as anyone else (who hasn't done their research), except that he has a background that gives his opinion weight.

That's why that ESPN aritcle citing Mann's comments as a sign that AH might be traded after all, was a joke.

Let's not get caught up in the details. The overall point was, "Get your ass to camp, do the work, and you wouldn't have made it through the draft combine back in my day." He's right on all of those accounts.