WP: Charles Mann calls out Albert Haynesworth

[ZoEd]

The reason why I think most of you big mouths in this thread are really haters is because you refuse to think for just one minute that just maybe AH knows what AH is doing. You won't admit that maybe AH is right, maybe what he needed was to get away and get in shape his way. You won't admit that maybe this whole "team building" crap in June is just that...crap. The idea isn't very far fetched yet the same old big mouth fans who based on the tags they got post all the time over and over again the same old crap and talk in certainities that this won't work even though they have no proof to think that way.

First off, learn to spell simple words, (voluntary) just a recommendation from one of the haters.

Now, take off YOUR blinders for a minute and quit your AH jock sniffing.

New head coach.

New Defensive coach.

New Defensive system.

With this comes new philosophy, new terminology and a new playbook.

Also with this comes an entire team having to learn together as a TEAM. It's not about what's best for AH, it's about what's best for the team.

So what you're trying to say with all of your infinite wisdom is that a man making a $100M couldn't pay his personal trainer to come to Ashburn during OTA's and train him during AH's downtime, when he wasn't working with the team. Hell, he could hire a personal jet and fly to training.

What you're missing, and it's quite a huge point actually, is that AH doesn't give a **** about anyone but AH. Of course team mates aren't going to throw him under the bus, although some have expressed their disappointment, but if you think for a freaking moment that they're pleased that AH isn't there your out of your freaking tree! If you think for one minute that this is anything but a disruption to the team you're even more ignorant than those of us you keep calling haters and ignorant.

Put down AH's jock and step away for a minute so your head can clear. I think the jock itch cream is making you a little crazy.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Let's not get caught up in the details. The overall point was, "Get your ass to camp, do the work, and you wouldn't have made it through the draft combine back in my day." He's right on all of those accounts.

Well, the WAY someone decides to get that point across does mean something, especially when it IS done publicly from someone who is as well-respected as Mann. Plus, he instantly gives credence to those media speculations by mimicking the media rumors as if he knows they are accurate and true.

[Henry]

I thought I read on this board that Riggins held out an entire season, over his contract. I obviously wasn't around, but I thought it was discussed on this board. My point is that, some of the over 30 crowd seems to have selective memory; making it as if the players back then were sooo much tougher and more humble. You guys are exaggerating.

Riggins held out during the Pardee era, when the Redskins were a very streaky and inconsistent team. Not sure that supports the notion that the Redskins under Joe Gibbs weren't conditioned to think of the team first.

A better example for you might be Mark Rypien, who held out after the 91 Superbowl season. He didn't miss any games or anything, just some preseason work. He was booed mercilessly by the fans at the home opener. I remember after the game he said something like 'what did I do that was so bad except hold out?'

Yes, things are very different now.

[Conn]

Let's not get caught up in the details. The overall point was, "Get your ass to camp, do the work, and you wouldn't have made it through the draft combine back in my day." He's right on all of those accounts.

You see, I don't agree with that. If you are a well-respected guy whose opinion is going to have weight, and you are going to express these opinions in a public forum, I think it should be done with the greatest possible responsibility. And that means, getting the details correct and not just repeating what the media has been re-hashing for months.

Add to that, his tone and choice of words throughout, and its hard to look at it as a well-reasoned, professional, unibiased opinion from someone with the experience and reputation to give it merit. It really is.

[Henry]

I respect his opinion as well but he DID get a number of things wrong (or at the very least he seemed to be mimicking distortions in the media). Anyone, no matter who they are, who uses those same media-driven misrepresentations as a foundation for their argument loses some points in my eyes. Not overall, but in that matter. Mann's rant falls into that category for me, unfortunately.

Pretend for a second that I've been ignoring all of this Haynesworth drama. What's been distorted?

[Conn]

Pretend for a second that I've been ignoring all of this Haynesworth drama. What's been distorted?

1) Emphasizing the fact that Ah needs to shut up and play NT, even though coaches have come out multiple times and said that he'll move around the line and play DE the majority of the time. The media has blown this out of proportion (as has AH), and ignored the words from our very own coaches setting the record straight. Mann did the same here.

2) His comments regarding the comfort AH should have as a NT, because "he won't have to make plays", as if that's normal for AH. And as if this whole thing didn't start in the first place because AH is a playmaker who felt that he couldn't make plays as a NT (not that I support that behavior: Its just relevant here).

3) He repeated the misinformation that the media has been spreading about AH's lack of conditioning last year, citing AH sucking wind in '09 because he worked out on his own and it wasn't effective.....even though he was not conditioned properly because Zorn's program (as he conditioned with the team that offseason, something that Mann doesn't seem aware of) didn't work for him. Which was the other catalyst for this entire dramatic affair; AH wants to train how he did with the Titans, on his own, to get back to form. Not commenting on the right or wrong of that here, just pointing out that Mann didn't know the facts.

4) His talk about a trade being probable, when there's nothing coming from the organization or AH indicating that that has been a possibility after the draft. Again, he's regurgitating what the media's been spouting for months: a stale story that was never a story to begin with.

Its all just uninformed, even if only by small degrees. But all together, its enough to color the entire interview, along with his tone.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Let's not get caught up in the details. The overall point was, "Get your ass to camp, do the work, and you wouldn't have made it through the draft combine back in my day." He's right on all of those accounts.

Exactly. I don't think we have to read too much into the specifics.

Should Haynesworth be participating in these activities? Yes. Does it matter if Mann knows every little reason why he's not? No. Would Mann be out there were he still a player? Yes. Is there any coincidence that we was both individually successful and played for championship teams? No.

[Henry]

1) Emphasizing the fact that Ah needs to shut up and play NT, even though coaches have come out multiple times and said that he'll move around the line and play DE the majority of the time. The media has blown this out of proportion (as has AH), and ignored the words from our very own coaches setting the record straight. Mann did the same here.

2) His comments regarding the comfort AH should have as a NT, because "he won't have to make plays", as if that's normal for AH. And as if this whole thing didn't start in the first place because AH is a playmaker who felt that he couldn't make plays as a NT (not that I support that behavior: Its just relevant here).

3) He repeated the misinformation that the media has been spreading about AH's lack of conditioning last year, citing AH sucking wind in '09 because he worked out on his own and it wasn't effective.....even though he was not conditioned properly because Zorn's program (as he conditioned with the team that offseason, something that Mann doesn't seem aware of) didn't work for him. Which was the other catalyst for this entire dramatic affair; AH wants to train how he did with the Titans, on his own, to get back to form. Not commenting on the right or wrong of that here, just pointing out that Mann didn't know the facts.

4) His talk about a trade being probable, when there's nothing coming from the organization or AH indicating that that has been a possibility after the draft. Again, he's regurgitating what the media's been spouting for months: a stale story that was never a story to begin with.

Its all just uninformed, even if only by small degrees. But all together, its enough to color the entire interview, along with his tone.

I think you may be reading into Mann's statement what you expect to read. He didn't say AH wouldn't play DE. He didn't say AH didn't show up for OTAs last year.

But whatever. When all the nits have been picked, this is the meat-and-potatoes of what he said:

My success is based on the team's," he said. "If the team goes to the playoffs and does well and ultimately gets to the Super Bowl, then guess what, there'll be a lot of All Pros on that team, there'll be a lot of accolades for the individuals. Everything happens if you do well as a team. And so if I'm out there slaving and working my butt off, and Albert is sitting at home cooling it or complaining or whatever, me as a teammate of his is gonna go handle this situation. I don't need Coach Shanahan or anybody else or the league to do anything they need to do. We've got to get to the bottom of this. Is it about winning, or is it about you being comfortable or uncomfortable?

This is 100% dead-on accurate. Is everything peachy between the coach, Haynesworth and his teammates? If they aren't, it doesn't really matter if Mann thinks Haynesworth would make a good NT or will be traded or whatever. What matters is the best defensive player on the team is not doing everything he can to get along with the rest of the team. And if that's the case we have a problem. The same problem we've had for the past ten years which has made us a laughing stock throughout the league.

I for one am SICK of sniping at criticism that is largely accurate because a T wasn't crossed properly. All that does is enable this team to constantly put out a crappy product on the field. Who cares that we've gone from 9-7 to 8-8 to 4-12? One of our critics forgot Haynesworth might play some DE!!!

This team has no more room for error. The fans turned very early last season and our owner pulled one last rabbit out of his hat to bring in a GM named Allen and a SB-winning coach. If this doesn't work, how long do you think the patience of this fan base will last? Another 20 years with one division title? No, we're running out of time here. I for one would like to see the most prominent members of our team recognize that, and stop acting like this is the Redskins of the past decade. I for one would like to stop hearing our coach say stuff like

“He’ll definitely have a lot of catching up to do. It’ll be a lot of work for him to come in here and learn the system. We’ve got three days to try to catch him up, and hopefully he’s in shape and we’ll utilize the three days to catch him up as best as we can.”

And I think Mann would too. As a guy who knows what it takes to win at the highest level, his opinion on that subject carries quite a bit of weight.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Henry, nice post!

Basically, I love that some fans and some ex-players will hold this team to the standard that was set during the productive years under Allen and Gibbs. There was a time not too long ago when the Redskins were a model organization and one of the elite "crown jewels" of the NFL.

Far too many people have begun to accept a bad product and all the little symptoms that add up to that bad product. Acceptance leads to enabling and that's where we stand now...almost 20 years removed from any meaningful football.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

I think you may be reading into Mann's statement what you expect to read. He didn't say AH wouldn't play DE. He didn't say AH didn't show up for OTAs last year.

But whatever. When all the nits have been picked, this is the meat-and-potatoes of what he said:

This is 100% dead-on accurate. Is everything peachy between the coach, Haynesworth and his teammates? If they aren't, it doesn't really matter if Mann thinks Haynesworth would make a good NT or will be traded or whatever. What matters is the best defensive player on the team is not doing everything he can to get along with the rest of the team. And if that's the case we have a problem. The same problem we've had for the past ten years which has made us a laughing stock throughout the league.

I for one am SICK of sniping at criticism that is largely accurate because a T wasn't crossed properly. All that does is enable this team to constantly put out a crappy product on the field. Who cares that we've gone from 9-7 to 8-8 to 4-12? One of our critics forgot Haynesworth might play some DE!!!

This team has no more room for error. The fans turned very early last season and our owner pulled one last rabbit out of his hat to bring in a GM named Allen and a SB-winning coach. If this doesn't work, how long do you think the patience of this fan base will last? Another 20 years with one division title? No, we're running out of time here. I for one would like to see the most prominent members of our team recognize that, and stop acting like this is the Redskins of the past decade. I for one would like to stop hearing our coach say stuff like

And I think Mann would too. As a guy who knows what it takes to win at the highest level, his opinion on that subject carries quite a bit of weight.

Ironically, you missed something in the one thing you quoted from Mann:

And so if I'm out there slaving and working my butt off, and Albert is sitting at home cooling it or complaining or whatever, me as a teammate of his is gonna go handle this situation.

1) He has zero knowledge if Haynesworth is "sitting at home cooling it" or "whatever".

2) Haynesworth has YET to complain, anywhere.

So why do you think Mann decided to describe Haynesworth as sitting at home cooling it and complaining and "whatever"? Where did he get the idea that Haynesworth was doing ANY of that?

You guessed it...from media speculation. It almost sounds as if Mann is forming his entire viewpoint around whatever he is being told by the media.

Think of this for a moment: one current Redskins player comes onto this site, starts a thread, and tells fans to stop believing all the crap the media is putting out concerning Haynesworth because it's not an accurate portrait. Another ex-Redskins player who has never played with Haynesworth and apparently doesn't even talk to him besides sitting at a table once at a function with AH and his wife, basically regurgitates a bunch of the same media stuff that the FIRST player told us was inaccurate. And to a certain segment of ES members, it doesn't matter lol.

Well, to a certain segment of ES members, it does. And with good reason.

[Henry]

'Or whatever' is pretty all-encompassing. I don't have a problem with it.

And I'm glad one of the players is ok with things. I'm not glad the coach is saying 'he'll have a lot of catching up to do' and 'hopefully he'll be in shape.'

How can that not be a concern? Especially on a team that has a long and storied history of being overpopulated by primadonnas?

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Cali, you're still nitpicking Mann's quotes too much, in my opinion.

He should be there with his teammates. Even if he's working out 10 hours per day by himself, he should be attending the "practices" that we've had 12 or so times in the past 2 months. So, Mann is putting himself in a random teammate's shoes and saying how he would feel if he was taking time out of his off-season to come to DC for these activities while someone else was not.

How is that even something that anyone can disagree with?

[Califan007 The Constipated]

'Or whatever' is pretty all-encompassing. I don't have a problem with it.

And I'm glad one of the players is ok with things. I'm not glad the coach is saying 'he'll have a lot of catching up to do' and 'hopefully he'll be in shape.'

How can that not be a concern? Especially on a team that has a long and storied history of being overpopulated by primadonnas?

"Or whatever" isn't all-encompassing in this case...it's used in a derogatory manner. Saying something like "He's off sitting at home, cooling out, complaining or whatever" doesn't sound as if the "or whatever" includes "working his ass off to be in the best shape of his life" lol...not to mention that when Mann said that, it was within the context of how he, as a player, would be pissed off by "whatever" Haynesworth is doing.

Also, Carter didn't say he was "ok" with things concerning Haynesworth...he said that the media and sports journalists are feeding fans inaccurate portrayals of things concerning AH and that we shouldn't buy into all the negative reports so damn easily. Not that anyone here actually bothered to give Carter's words even one ounce the same amount of respect that they are giving Mann's words, of course...

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Cali, you're still nitpicking Mann's quotes too much, in my opinion.

He should be there with his teammates. Even if he's working out 10 hours per day by himself, he should be attending the "practices" that we've had 12 or so times in the past 2 months. So, Mann is putting himself in a random teammate's shoes and saying how he would feel if he was taking time out of his off-season to come to DC for these activities while someone else was not.

How is that even something that anyone can disagree with?

Not nitpicking at all.

Half of Mann's "words" were regurgitations of media speculation that has YET to be proven. Pointing that out and saying it's one reason why Mann's words don't hold nearly the same reverence in my eyes as it does in some other people's eyes isn't "nitpicking".

I would ask why it doesn't bother some of you that Mann seems to be buying into the same media crap that Carter personally and directly told us was inaccurate?

The overly simplistic viewpoint of "Haynesworth should have been here with the team", no, nobody really argues that. What DOES get argued, though, is if Haynesworth's decision not to attend the voluntary stuff is being overblown and if he is being unfairly demonized because of it. I wish to the heavens that everyone simply said "Yeah, it would be better if Haynesworth was with his team now instead of off on his own" and left it at that...including Charles Mann. Just because the basic underlying message is more or less agreeable doesn't mean all the crap heaped on top of it holds validity or should be ignored.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

The overly simplistic viewpoint of "Haynesworth should have been here with the team", no, nobody really argues that.

That's been my only point all along. As I've stated in this and the other thread, I expect AH to be in great shape tomorrow since that's the entire reason he's stayed away from Redskin Park. I don't doubt that he's been working out with his trainer and working hard. No one in their right mind would draw a line in the sand like that and then show up fat and out of shape.

However, that alone doesn't change the fact that, TO ME, he still should have been here for the practices that we held. Period.

I've never argued that he's going to be fat, suck, be the reason we suck, etc. I've simply stated that the RIGHT thing to do would be to make the same sacrifices that the rest of your teammates are making.

Most of us have played sports at some level and it's not a foreign concept to grasp, is it? You want to be treated with respect and you want the same set of rules to apply to you as to the next guy on your team.

Edit: And before someone throws other examples out there, yes I had the same opinion about this matter when Sean Taylor, etc. were skipping workouts and not calling Gibbs back. I think the players should always have a team-first mentality and I'm hard on the players that don't seem to.

[LD0506]

I'm glad you remember who I am.

Un huh, and I'm sure it is just a coincidence that the whole tone of this thread experienced an upgrade in the last few hours.

Pity that these kind of stories always seem to devolve into acrimony, isn't possible to see what Mann said as valid while still conceding that Haynesworth might have a different perspective? That there are facts not in evidence your honor?

[Henry]

"Or whatever" isn't all-encompassing in this case...it's used in a derogatory manner. Saying something like "He's off sitting at home, cooling out, complaining or whatever" doesn't sound as if the "or whatever" includes "working his ass off to be in the best shape of his life" lol...not to mention that when Mann said that, it was within the context of how he, as a player, would be pissed off by "whatever" Haynesworth is doing.

When the coach doesn't know, so much so that he needs to have AH go through a physical so he knows if AH is in decent shape, 'or whatever' is perfectly legitimate.

Also, Carter didn't say he was "ok" with things concerning Haynesworth...he said that the media and sports journalists are feeding fans inaccurate portrayals of things concerning AH and that we shouldn't buy into all the negative reports so damn easily. Not that anyone here actually bothered to give Carter's words even one ounce the same amount of respect that they are giving Mann's words, of course...

I love Carter, and to be honest I don't know the thread you are talking about. It's exceptionally cool that he would post anything here. I'd love to read it if you have link.

However, we have for years picked out quotes of players we like and used them to justify just about anything this team has done completely wrong over the years. Patrick Ramsey once started a thread here, and it was awesome. We still sucked. Vinnie Cerratto once did a Q&A on this board, and it was awesome. We still sucked.

We were 4-12 last year. We haven't won the division since it went down to four teams, during which time the Eagles have won it five times, the Giants three times and the Cowboys twice (over the past three years.) This team does not deserve the benefit of the doubt. Haynesworth does not deserve it. Everybody needs to be freaking perfect. This isn't 2002 or 2006 or 2008 where we all think we're just a player or two away and THIS year will be that year it all comes together, so we can forgive one or two really good players for not hanging with the team. Those days are gone. I don't know what Carter said exactly, but maybe he doesn't realize that. Maybe he made some great points. Like I said, I'd love to read that thread.

But my point is all things being equal, I am NOT giving this team the nod over 'the media' anymore, because I have for years, and for years the media has been proven correct. Now it's time for the Redskins, all of them, to prove they are for real for once. And that ESPECIALLY applies to Albert.

[ZoEd]

So why do you think Mann decided to describe Haynesworth as sitting at home cooling it and complaining and "whatever"? Where did he get the idea that Haynesworth was doing ANY of that?

Doesn't really matter where it comes from. In my world, as a First Sergeant in the USAF, preception is reality. Doesn't matter if your reason for being 5 minutes for a meeting, missing Physical Training (PT), not showing up for graduation, promotion ceremony or whatever else, is completely justified. The preception is, you have "rank" so you can do whatever you want.

AH is the highest paid player on the team, kind of like having some rank don't you think? So it doesn't matter where Mann gets his "preception" from, to him it's reality and he has a right to his opinion. He wasn't speaking as an authority on AH with inside information. He was speaking as a player and how he'd feel and how he would preceive things.

You have to be cognizant of the preception your team has of you, just like a Senior NCO in the military has to be. Do I need to justify or explain my actions to an E1, hell no. But I sure as hell need to take into consideration what message I'm sending my "team" of Airmen.

[Conn]

I'm pretty sure he's referring to Daniels' thread recently, not Carter. So just swap the names out! haha

[Henry]

Un huh, and I'm sure it is just a coincidence that the whole tone of this thread experienced an upgrade in the last few hours.

I can't tell. Are you being sarcastic?

Pity that these kind of stories always seem to devolve into acrimony, isn't possible to see what Mann said as valid while still conceding that Haynesworth might have a different perspective? That there are facts not in evidence your honor?

In my last post I admit I don't have all the evidence. I have to admit my disgust for this team's performance over the past year and change has prompted me to take a little sabbatical from the board.

At this point, yes Haynesworth might have a different perspective. He may really think this is what's best for him and, therefore, the team. And he may come into camp completely ripped, and the team may love him for it and Shanahan may deep down concede that it was ok after all. That's all extremely possible.

But as I've also said in my last post, my benefit of doubt no longer resides with the team, or with Haynesworth. And if that's true for Mann as well, I can absolutely respect that.

[LD0506]

Henry, even joking that you might be forgotten here hurts my brain, and no, I am not being sarcastic. You chime in and the exchanges improve, it is a good thing.

I enjoy the give-n-take here, and the last few hours in this thread have been well worth reading, but it stands in contrast to a lot of other offerings where people's fanhood is called into question, players are vilified, etc.

My comment was a general one, not directed at any particular poster, but more an observation that we used to see a LOT of very heated debate here that never sank into outright warfare. I want to read disagreements, those are the most entertaining conversations, I just miss the old style I guess.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Henry, even joking that you might be forgotten here hurts my brain, and no, I am not being sarcastic. You chime in and the exchanges improve, it is a good thing.

I enjoy the give-n-take here, and the last few hours in this thread have been well worth reading, but it stands in contrast to a lot of other offerings where people's fanhood is called into question, players are vilified, etc.

My comment was a general one, not directed at any particular poster, but more an observation that we used to see a LOT of very heated debate here that never sank into outright warfare. I want to read disagreements, those are the most entertaining conversations, I just miss the old style I guess.

LD, you can't make a post like that. People won't be able to easily classify you as a hater or homer...half the heads of ESers just exploded.

[angel2]

I don't know what he cares about. My point throughout this thread is that this will NOT turn into any kind of lasting feud between Mann and Haynesworth, so no, I don't think he'll end up caring.

What I do believe though, is that this is a valid criticism coming from a dedicated and talented player like Charles Mann. It's unlike Lavar criticizing Portis since Lavar had some questionable traits and was a chronic underachiever. And it's even unlike Riggins criticizing Snyder since Riggins was also a little questionable in the dedication department.

Charles Mann had extraordinary talent but also was a consummate professional and team leader. His opinions re: the Redskins carry more weight in Washington than some character who played here for 5 years and never lived up to his draft position. Disagree?

If it wasn't for Dexter, Charles Mann would have been just a twist above average. Dexter took on the double coverages and still was great. So please don't try to sugar coat Charles' importance to this franchise.

My point is that most of these people were all for signing Albert. Now, because he elected to train on his own, he is do-do. I am looking forward to Big Al telling those who dislike him, to kiss his ---.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

If it wasn't for Dexter, Charles Mann would have been just a twist above average. Dexter took on the double coverages and still was great. So please don't try to sugar coat Charles' importance to this franchise.

My point is that most of these people were all for signing Albert. Now, because he elected to train on his own, he is do-do. I am looking forward to Big Al telling those who dislike him, to kiss his ---.

Awesome point. His Pro-Bowl season in 1991 (about 3 years after Dexter had been gone) while being the defensive leader of the team is a great example of him benefiting from all those Manley double-teams.

If you've read my actual opinions on Haynesworth, I expect him to play well this year. I just wish he had attended the workouts like everyone else on the team chose to. So, I don't "think he's do-do" or dislike him, I just prefer that he be a part of the team.

[Henry]

If it wasn't for Dexter, Charles Mann would have been just a twist above average. Dexter took on the double coverages and still was great. So please don't try to sugar coat Charles' importance to this franchise.

Odd then, isn't it, that Mann went to the pro-bowl when we won the Superbowl in 1991, leading the team with 11.5 sacks, when Manley was playing for Tampa Bay. It's also kinda funny that while Manley went to the pro-bowl in '86, it was Mann who went in '87, '88 and '89. The man was a full-time starter for the Redskins for 11 straight years, three NFC championship teams and two SB winning teams, missing no more than two games in any season save his last. We should be so lucky to get half that out of Haynesworth.

Mann didn't have Manley's raw talent, but very very few players did, or do. You do Mann a great disservice by understating his importance to this organization, or his understanding of the importance of teamwork.

My point is that most of these people were all for signing Albert. Now, because he elected to train on his own, he is do-do. I am looking forward to Big Al telling those who dislike him, to kiss his ---.

I'm looking forward to Haynesworth being the leader on a dominant defensive unit. When that actually happens I'll be thrilled.