ESPN: Clayton: What's next in free agency?

[bubba9497]

So someone please tell me why should I trust either guy? What have they done lately in this league to believe they can withstand the backlash that is sure to come if they don't pick a linemen in the first round?

a recent WP poll showed fans wanted to draft an OLman over a QB at #4, almost 2 to 1

[Chris0894]

That's just it, I don't trust Shanny or Allen. Why should I?

What did Shanny do in the 2000 decade? He got one more game closer to the Superbowl then we did all decade and he lost that game. How many division titles did he win in Denver in the 2000's? One more then we did and we didn't win any. How many playoff games did he win in the 2000's? 1, same as us.

What did Allen do in the 2000's? Well he did see Tampa win two division titles and surpass Shanny and the Redskins but didn't win a single playoff game.

So someone please tell me why should I trust either guy? What have they done lately in this league to believe they can withstand the backlash that is sure to come if they don't pick a linemen in the first round?

Finally someone said it lol. I didn't want to be the one but i agree with you completely

[addicted]

Guess you got it all figured out Vinny:blahblah:

Way to go into attack mode and not answer any of the questions I asked dude. Why do people get so pissy when you question there lemming thinking? Oh I know it's because your not supposed to tap on the glass and scare the fish right?

Anyway my names not Vinny, and you should ask yourself the same questions. Question your own thinking and like don't ever believe the hype

[Gregpeck99]

I agree but it is less of a risk to pick the sure tackle than the unknown QB. Right?

What makes YOU so sure Okung is a sure tackle. At $ 40 million bucks any tackle is a reach @4.

[addicted]

Absolutely. But to say, "We need a linemen at that pick. I don't care who it is as long as he's good.", sounds pretty dumb.

Ok draftnik guru...you missed the point and your over reaction is the second thing that sounds dumb here to me. The problem you have with what I said was "good". I'm sorry that I didn't say "great". There you happy?

Why reach and overpay for an OT just so you could say that you drafted one there. If he's good, but not #4 overall outstanding, then you don't take him.

Wrong. That's not the point at all and no one but you are saying that were reaching and your making a big deal out of this then it has to be. The point is, if you take a QB here and don't protect his ass then your going to get questioned about it and rightfully so. Are we the Detroit lions? A team that picks QB's with no line? I sure as hell hope not. We do not have an offensive line worth a crap right now. So....what my post was really saying was that we have put ourselves in a corner with this pick because we didn't address the line issues in FA. We could have signed a bunch of FA's and made it possible to take a QB there but no line equals terrible QB play. Since we only have 3 out of 5 starters on the line now, we can't pick a QB there. This new leadership will flat out be killed and judged poorly by what we do with that first pick and since we haven't addressed the line yet we have to pick linemen there. They put us in a corner with there stupid FA moves so far. And the fact our best offensive linemen retired this season.

The choice is simple, they gave us no choice. Either they linemen or they hope and pray they strike lightning in a bottle and get super lucky with a low round draft pick who can play linemen and we know were not that lucky, we have to draft a linemen. Who that is I don't know, and I honestly don't care. Let them be the judge, but not taking linemen with that pick will haunt them and this team forever.

And for the record I'm not buying the hype of "believe in ShannyAllen" myself. I dont see any reason to trust men who haven't done anything in this league in 10 years. I'll ask again, why should I trust those two men? What have they done to earn my trust?

[MariusVT]

Honestly I will support who ever our front office drafts at #4. But personally if we take an OT at 4, I hope that we only take OL the rest of the draft and just focus on rebuilding it.

The only unfortunate part is if we do halfway decent next year (8-8) they will either sign JC for a short term or probably have to mortgage the future to move up and draft the next guy at QB.

[addicted]

Well, that's ONE way of severely minimizing what the Broncos accomplished lol...I'm sure there are others. Getting to the AFC Championship Game should be stated as such, instead of "they got one more game closer to the SB"...in the playoffs each game is not merely "one more game" like it is in the regular season.

Fine the coach went to the Championship game, I said the said the exact same thing. And he lost that game, bfd. And we still won the same number of playoff games as he did in Denver, and I said that too, what's your point? You just upset that I'm calling it like I see it? That Shanny's record isn't deserving of blind faith like everyone around here is showing him today? You can believe in Shanny like that, I want to see it first. Show me more then this about Shannahan other then you taking exception to me not saying "AFC Championship game" because I'm not on the bandwagon yet. I wanna be, I'm not there yet. And I think the FA moves of not addressing the offensive line is stupid.

PLEASE tell me that you know more about Bruce Allen's accomplishments in the 2000's than what you stated here ...

Did you completely forget his time with the Oakland Raiders? You know...AFC Championship games...Super Bowl appearance...NFL Executive Of The Year...any of that ring a bell? All of it happened in the 2000s.

I think it is you that needs a history lesson about Bruce in Oakland not I,.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/17/AR2009121704384.html

"Allen's chance for future success could largely hinge on his relationship with owner Daniel Snyder. In Oakland, Allen thrived and was considered the right-hand man to Al Davis, an owner known for putting his fingerprints on most decisions. Those familiar with those days say Allen's role was largely on the business side. He had little to do with the team's personnel decisions but was considered essential in contract negotiations and juggling salary-cap numbers."

Judging salary cap numbers and little to do with personnel decisions. He was more of a real GM in Tampa and he did nothing there. While in Tampa he brought in bad free agents and his teams were garbage never winning a playoff game. So Im sorry that I didn't mention his juggling cap numbers and making business decision accomplishments in my first post about Bruce but really I don't see anything of worth here with him as a GM to warrent us blindly following him.

Show me on the field, show me his plan, show me something other then "In ShannyAllen we trust" and "Believe in ShannyAllen" to me that's just a bunch of junk to me

Sell me on these two men. I want to be sold. I'm not yet. Show me

[addicted]

a recent WP poll showed fans wanted to draft an OLman over a QB at #4, almost 2 to 1

Yeah, make it so please :logo:

[KDawg]

That's just it, I don't trust Shanny or Allen. Why should I?

What did Shanny do in the 2000 decade? He got one more game closer to the Superbowl then we did all decade and he lost that game. How many division titles did he win in Denver in the 2000's? One more then we did and we didn't win any. How many playoff games did he win in the 2000's? 1, same as us.

What did Allen do in the 2000's? Well he did see Tampa win two division titles and surpass Shanny and the Redskins but didn't win a single playoff game.

So someone please tell me why should I trust either guy? What have they done lately in this league to believe they can withstand the backlash that is sure to come if they don't pick a linemen in the first round?

Simple answer: Neither are named Vinny Cerrato. Therefore, deserve at least a little bit of a window to try and get this thing turned around. It's a fresh start.

[kingdaddy]

Seems logical that we go OL with the first pick and look at QB in round 2 or 3. I'd love to see OL in round 1 and 2. We already have two draft picks on the roster at the QB position, for better or worse, so why not build the O-line first?

[addicted]

Simple answer: Neither are named Vinny Cerrato. Therefore, deserve at least a little bit of a window to try and get this thing turned around. It's a fresh start.

I agree with you to a point, but I still question the blind thinking. The anti Ceratto feeling is going to be short lived. What then?

[addicted]

Seems logical that we go OL with the first pick and look at QB in round 2 or 3. I'd love to see OL in round 1 and 2. We already have two draft picks on the roster at the QB position, for better or worse, so why not build the O-line first?

Exactly, its a no brainer to me. Drafting another position besides OL with that first is a mistake. I wasn't on this bandwagon for OL before FA started because I thought we could give ourselves options here by addressing the line in FA and we didn't. Since we didn't I've changed my thinking on this

[KDawg]

I agree with you to a point, but I still question the blind thinking. The anti Ceratto feeling is going to be short lived. What then?

Then we move from there. This franchise was a mess. Realistically, it's NOT going to come together this year. So now the question is how much patience does our fan base have? My hope is they'll at least get through this season, even if we have a poor record (albeit I'd hope for at least some kind of sign that we're improving, but it doesn't have to be in the record), without wanting to lynch Shanahan and Allen. Next season, if we don't see some kind of progress then we've got to start worrying.

[Leonard Washington]

2. Teams are doing extra to clean up their cap problems in this uncapped year: The Washington Redskins released nine veterans when free agency opened. Those released accounted for $62.2 million of dead cap money. If the $123 million cap were in effect, the Redskins would be $39 million over.

I have two questions for the experts:

1. Is it really dead cap money if there's no cap?

2. So a new cap can be instituted anytime during this off season and teams would have to abide?

[addicted]

Then we move from there. This franchise was a mess. Realistically, it's NOT going to come together this year. So now the question is how much patience does our fan base have? My hope is they'll at least get through this season, even if we have a poor record (albeit I'd hope for at least some kind of sign that we're improving, but it doesn't have to be in the record), without wanting to lynch Shanahan and Allen. Next season, if we don't see some kind of progress then we've got to start worrying.

You made me laugh this morning....how much patience does this fan base have? Are you serious? We've both been on here posting on game days you tell me. I think we have no patience and after the draft barring a linemen in the first round then this place melts down. Financially fans aren't going to give it a year of "ho hum, were the Skins...give it another year", that's not realistic

[KDawg]

You made me laugh this morning....how much patience does this fan base have? Are you serious? We've both been on here posting on game days you tell me. I think we have no patience and after the draft barring a linemen in the first round then this place melts down. Financially fans aren't going to give it a year of "ho hum, were the Skins...give it another year", that's not realistic

I'm not asking for the fans to say "Ho Hum we're the 'Skins". I'm asking for the fans to give a new regime a chance after 10 years of this franchise, for the most part, circling down the drain. We were hovering on the brink of going down into the sewer when Cerrato was let go.

How is it not realistic to not expect magic one year into this thing? I have a bit more faith in this fan base. If we're bad do I expect us to continue to cheer anyways? No. Boo away. Just don't ask for their heads yet. It's REAL early. And even after a year in it's early.

At least give them some time before you throw them under the bus.

[MattFancy]

If we take Okung #4, do you think it would be possible to trade back into the 1st to get a QB or would we just wait it out until our 2nd round pick?

[jfriedenthal]

If we take Okung #4, do you think it would be possible to trade back into the 1st to get a QB or would we just wait it out until our 2nd round pick?

Colt McCoy and Lefevoure (Sp?) will both be there when we pick in the second. I don't think the dropoff, if any is that large. I recently started looking at McCoy tape again, he looks pretty solid.

[Dick Edds]

I recently started looking at McCoy tape again, he looks pretty solid.

I have been watching more tape of McCoy as well, the kid is good and extremely accurate and mobile ... but if Bradford is gone and Okung is there at #4, I'd be happy with that pick, and even more happy if McCoy was actually there in the 2nd.

Something tells me that McCoy might not make it to the 2nd though ... have a feeling that some team in the late 1st might snag him.

Also, how can we be sure that the Lions won't take Okung? They need an LT to protect Stafford too ... at least that's what I heard.

Taking Suh or Berry is not the end of the world, but the former regime put us in a bind and has us backed into a corner in this draft by neglecting the OL for so long.

That's why I think Shanallen and co. deserve at least more than one draft to get this thing fixed.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

who cares what the fans think?

If you don't have a franchise QB or a top #3 at WORST defense with a monster running game, you will not be a threat. We're not picking an entire offensive line with the #4 pick, we're picking who will likely be the 2nd best LT on the board.

I cannot BELIEVE you people all complained about Vinny, seeing that you have the same mindset. This is the same thinking that gets you Carlos Rogers over Ware and Merriman, 3 picks to trade up for Jason Campbell, 1st after 1st at RFAs, etc, etc. It's chasing short-term needs, year after year. It''s not just neglecting the line; it' s the fact that instead of building for the future, we focus on the most "obvious" need and neglect the future.

So what if we improve on 4-12 next year? We want Super Bowls, not marginal improvment, right? Does anyone *still* think Campbell can take us to the big game? Or you say we need to build the team around him and let the team take HIM to the big game? Well, let's trade the guy for a 3rd for 4th, because there are plenty of QBs who can play conservative football and not make mistakes while your defense and running game win the game 17-13 for you.

Trent Dilfer won a Super Bowl - does that make him a good QB? And sure, the Ravens won ONCE that way - but if they had a QB, they would have been the dynasty of the last decade.

So basically, you all bashed Vinny, yet you still think like him, never thinking long-term, always thinking for next season, not seasons beyond next. And with that thinking, this team won't win anything of note for a long, long time.

[Rocky21]

Looks like the Cowpies may be in trouble next year when the CBA is renegotiated and the cap is put back in place.

[JoeKnowsBest]

I see alot of good points being made here. It does seem that many are still thinking like Vinny and going for the most obvious need by forgoing the long term success of the franchise. (If you can get a franchise QB 4, then you had better darn well take him while you have that oppurtunity. It doesn't come around very often.) I also agree that blind loyalty has a definitive limit. The product on the field is what has to win your respect and confidence over. That is something that is earned, not just given. (Even though we are fans and I just now realised this for myself.)

[Califan007 The Constipated]

I think it is you that needs a history lesson about Bruce in Oakland not I,.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/17/AR2009121704384.html

"Allen's chance for future success could largely hinge on his relationship with owner Daniel Snyder. In Oakland, Allen thrived and was considered the right-hand man to Al Davis, an owner known for putting his fingerprints on most decisions. Those familiar with those days say Allen's role was largely on the business side. He had little to do with the team's personnel decisions but was considered essential in contract negotiations and juggling salary-cap numbers."

Judging salary cap numbers and little to do with personnel decisions. He was more of a real GM in Tampa and he did nothing there. While in Tampa he brought in bad free agents and his teams were garbage never winning a playoff game. So Im sorry that I didn't mention his juggling cap numbers and making business decision accomplishments in my first post about Bruce but really I don't see anything of worth here with him as a GM to warrent us blindly following him.

Show me on the field, show me his plan, show me something other then "In ShannyAllen we trust" and "Believe in ShannyAllen" to me that's just a bunch of junk to me

Sell me on these two men. I want to be sold. I'm not yet. Show me

Allen's role here is more in tune with his role in Oakland than his responsibilities in Tampa. That's why his time in Oakland is relevant and important, and should not be dismissed as otherwise. Besides, you don't win Executive Of The Year for simply writing good contracts lol.

[SonnyJ]

who cares what the fans think?

If you don't have a franchise QB or a top #3 at WORST defense with a monster running game, you will not be a threat. We're not picking an entire offensive line with the #4 pick, we're picking who will likely be the 2nd best LT on the board.

I cannot BELIEVE you people all complained about Vinny, seeing that you have the same mindset. This is the same thinking that gets you Carlos Rogers over Ware and Merriman, 3 picks to trade up for Jason Campbell, 1st after 1st at RFAs, etc, etc. It's chasing short-term needs, year after year. It''s not just neglecting the line; it' s the fact that instead of building for the future, we focus on the most "obvious" need and neglect the future.

So what if we improve on 4-12 next year? We want Super Bowls, not marginal improvment, right? Does anyone *still* think Campbell can take us to the big game? Or you say we need to build the team around him and let the team take HIM to the big game? Well, let's trade the guy for a 3rd for 4th, because there are plenty of QBs who can play conservative football and not make mistakes while your defense and running game win the game 17-13 for you.

Trent Dilfer won a Super Bowl - does that make him a good QB? And sure, the Ravens won ONCE that way - but if they had a QB, they would have been the dynasty of the last decade.

So basically, you all bashed Vinny, yet you still think like him, never thinking long-term, always thinking for next season, not seasons beyond next. And with that thinking, this team won't win anything of note for a long, long time.

Absolutely spot-on post. It's funny. People here rail on about how poor the OL was last year. Yet, the team keeps re-signing players from that OL. Rabach, M. Williams, Montgomery. At the very worst, it says that the new regime thinks that these guys are good for depth - which is what they started off last season as when the OL depth was considered poor. Re-signing Rabach, a player roundly criticized last season by the "gurus" on this board, seemed to be a priority with the new regime. They signed Hicks, a journeyman type not much different than what is already with the team. Levi Jones seems to be potentially part of the team's plans.

What it all adds up to is that maybe last year's OL wasn't the catastrophe that it was made out to be. And, quite possibly, the centerpiece of the OL will be a brand spanking new OT courtesy of the #4 pick of the draft. No issues with that, as long as that player is worthy of the selection.

What blows my mind is this notion of QB as afterthought, just a component that you spend little on and stick in to "run the system". The idiocy of this thinking is truly mind-boggling. QB is paramount. That position HAS to be addressed. You can get by with merely adequate OL and still be a very good offensive team. You CANNOT be a good offensive team, over the course of a season, w/o good QB play. Merely adequate will not cut it - defenses are too good, too fast, too in tune with strengths, weaknesses, and tendencies.

Mediocre QBs can be masked with, as you said, top notch defense and running games, but that is a tough formula to replicate, not to mention endure for multiple seasons. It's a formula that, when done well, can produce winning seasons and playoff appearances. It almost always gets exposed by better teams in the playoffs, though. Unless the defense plays at such a historic level that the offense can, in fact, just be there to not lose the game. No organization with an eye on winning championships is content with the "strong defense and running game, whatever at QB" formula. Not a one. Even those doing well with that formula will invest heavily in QB in an attempt to complete the team.

The fact is that the last team to compete in a Super Bowl with an OL that received heavy investment was the 2007 Patriots. And, in the following season where it didn't have a quick and decisive QB playing behind it, that heavily-invested OL was worse at protecting the QB than the Redskins and the supposedly garbage OL that they had in 2008.

At #4, you get the player felt to have the biggest impact on the team for the long term. You can't fixate on a position or position group. That is the shortest path to drafting busts.

[bubba9497]

Rabach wasn't the problem at OL, he was one of the few bright spots, and is a much better center than many realize.

For all the "we resigned some backup OL, means the OL wasn't that bad" spinners.... you are completely missing the obvious.

1. you have to have bodies to practice

2. being a viable "backup" hardly equals being a quailty "starter" for several games, but merely a short term fix

3. The huge needs at #1 LT, #2 RT something we haven't addressed yet (most OL problems happened when Samuels went down)

4. Lack of decent available FA

seriously you don't have to be a "guru" to comprehend basic OL play and the importance of the tackle position.