CNN: Passions over 'prosperity gospel': Was Jesus wealthy?

[AsburySkinsFan]

CowboysSaintsFan, lets just put it this way...we disagree. The anti-Christ in Revelation was Nero and we know this because of the numerical sum of his name, John was writing to the persecuted church in Asia Minor which was undergoing the 2nd great persecution from Domitian. Revelation is not looking at the Roman Catholic church, it is a theological/political commentary about the Roman Empire not only that but it is also a letter to the faithful to maintain their faith in the midst of persecution.

I understand that Revelation also contains many archetypes/caricatures that can be seen throughout history. I also hold to the Pre-millenial view in that I view the only part of Revelation that has not come to fulfillment already is the 2nd coming and resurrection of the dead, basically Revelation 20 and following.

As far as the Free Masonry thing is concerned, I've never seen anything more to that than the mad online tinfoil hat conspiracy theories that are heavy on speculation and light on fact.

And the idea that Rome is the object of Revelation, well that seems very awkward considering that the entire Protestant church came out of the Roman church, and if the Roman Church is the object of Revelation then that would mean that the Protestant church was born from the lineage of the anti-Christ and the Beast, which seems to be contrary to what Revelation actually says.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Not everyone understood what was being written, for instance when you read Daniel 9 you see not everyone evidently knew the exile was to last 70 years.

But apparently the Babylonian Captivity only lasted 48 years; 586-538 when they were given permission to return home.

Much of Revelation has not come to be yet

I believe that everything in Revelation was already in fulfillment at the time of its writing, with the only thing remaining being the resurrection/judgment etc from chapter 20 on.

and Deuteronomy 28 did not find fulfillment until 70 CE

Well you're reading Deut 28 as prophetic, I don't. No more so than fortune cookies, or the fact that I know my daughter will drink chocolate milk over white milk.

[Smoot Point Really]

Thousands of Protestant denominations guided by millions of tiny Popes. They pronounce absolution of their sins into their pillow at night and create their own "feel good" theology. They have good intentions but are completely miguiding themselves.

[DRSmith]

But apparently the Babylonian Captivity only lasted 48 years; 586-538 when they were given permission to return home.

I believe that everything in Revelation was already in fulfillment at the time of its writing, with the only thing remaining being the resurrection/judgment etc from chapter 20 on.

Well you're reading Deut 28 as prophetic, I don't. No more so than fortune cookies, or the fact that I know my daughter will drink chocolate milk over white milk.

Where are you getting the dates from?

Does Revelation state at the beginning that it was a future event?

This was no fortune cookie prophecy this happened to the tee.

49 “Jehovah will raise up against you a nation far away, from the end of the earth, just as an eagle pounces, a nation whose tongue you will not understand, 50 a nation fierce in countenance, who will not be partial to an old man or show favor to a young man. 51 And they will certainly eat the fruit of your domestic animals and the fruitage of your ground until you have been annihilated, and they will let no grain, new wine or oil, no young of your cattle or progeny of your flock, remain for you until they have destroyed you. 52 And they will indeed besiege you within all your gates until your high and fortified walls in which you are trusting fall in all your land, yes, they will certainly besiege you within all your gates in all your land, which Jehovah your God has given you. 53 Then you will have to eat the fruit of your belly, the flesh of your sons and your daughters, whom Jehovah your God has given you, because of the tightness and stress with which your enemy will hem you in

[grego]

The Freemasons angle is mindblowing - I had no idea about this, but BILLY GRAHAM is a 33rd Degree Mason. Color me surprised, he's been spewing out false doctrine for DECADES(not just in recent years when supposedly his health was deteriorating) under everyone's noses.

how do you spew false doctrine under everyones nose? dont you recognize it as soon as you hear it?

i have no idea about his freemason ties but graham is one guy that seems solid. all i ever saw him to were those crusade stadium shows where thousands would give their lives to christ. what false doctrine was he spewing then?

[Jumbo]

49 “Jehovah will raise up against you a nation far away, from the end of the earth, just as an eagle pounces, a nation whose tongue you will not understand, 50 a nation fierce in countenance, who will not be partial to an old man or show favor to a young man. 51 And they will certainly eat the fruit of your domestic animals and the fruitage of your ground until you have been annihilated, and they will let no grain, new wine or oil, no young of your cattle or progeny of your flock, remain for you until they have destroyed you. 52 And they will indeed besiege you within all your gates until your high and fortified walls in which you are trusting fall in all your land, yes, they will certainly besiege you within all your gates in all your land, which Jehovah your God has given you. 53 Then you will have to eat the fruit of your belly, the flesh of your sons and your daughters, whom Jehovah your God has given you, because of the tightness and stress with which your enemy will hem you in

A. "God will give you nothing you can't handle"

B. "The Lord Giveth and the Lord Taketh Away"

C. "God provides"

D. "Ewwwwwww"

:evilg:

[DRSmith]

The last be may be ewww but it did happen

She then attempted a most unnatural thing; and snatching up her son, who was a child sucking at her breast, she said, "O thou miserable infant! for whom shall I preserve thee in this war, this famine, and this sedition? As to the war with the Romans, if they preserve our lives, we must be slaves. This famine also will destroy us, even before that slavery comes upon us. Yet are these seditious rogues more terrible than both the other. Come on; be thou my food, and be thou a fury to these seditious varlets, and a by- word to the world, which is all that is now wanting to complete the calamities of us Jews." As soon as she had said this, she slew her son, and then roasted him, and eat the one half of him, and kept the other half by her concealed. Upon this the seditious came in presently, and smelling the horrid scent of this food, they threatened her that they would cut her throat immediately if she did not show them what food she had gotten ready. She replied that she had saved a very fine portion of it for them, and withal uncovered what was left of her son. Hereupon they were seized with a horror and amazement of mind, and stood astonished at the sight, when she said to them, "This is mine own son, and what hath been done was mine own doing! Come, eat of this food; for I have eaten of it myself! Do not you pretend to be either more tender than a woman, or more compassionate than a mother; but if you be so scrupulous, and do abominate this my sacrifice, as I have eaten the one half, let the rest be reserved for me also." After which those men went out trembling, being never so much aftrighted at any thing as they were at this, and with some difficulty they left the rest of that meat to the mother.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/history/flavius-josephus/war-of-the-jews/book-6/chapter-3.html

[twa]

D. "Ewwwwwww"

:evilg:

So.....tastes like chicken or pork?

I've always been fascinated by this line

Do not you pretend to be either more tender than a woman, or more compassionate than a mother

.

[Jumbo]

I've always been fascinated by this line

Do not you pretend to be either more tender than a woman, or more compassionate than a mother.

Can check with techboy on the translation and Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek naunces as my skills are a tad rusty, but I think it's "don't act like a ***** cuz you ain't got one."

[brandymac27]

Asbury,

I thought numerology and astrology and all that other stuff was a big no no in the Bible?

And, no, I don't think Jesus was rich.

[Baculus]

Supply Side Jesus!

http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/03/09/17_franken.html

(Forgive me if this has been posted.)

[AsburySkinsFan]

Asbury,

I thought numerology and astrology and all that other stuff was a big no no in the Bible?

Not so with numerology, because its not a matter of fortune telling but instead its basically speaking in an understood code, the idea that numbers have specific significance is seen throughout the Bible; numbers like; 3, 7, 12, 40 are seen over and over again. When we begin to look at apocalyptic literature the use of numbers is seen continually and they signify several different ideas that would have been actively recognized by the readers, this goes for the apocalyptic literature found in Daniel as well much like the "70 weeks" referenced earlier.

Where are you getting the dates from?

Encyclopedia Brittanica is a nice online source, I would post my Old Testament text books, but this should do.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/47693/Babylonian-Exile

Does Revelation state at the beginning that it was a future event?

As does all apocalyptic literature, you may disagree but the images given in Revelation were readily understood by the people;

From the Seven Heads on the dragon one that looked raised from the dead as the 7 Emperors of Rome, the resurrected one was Domitian who was thought by the church to be Nero resurrected; to the four horsemen who represent; wars; man's hostility to man; economic instability; and death. You and others want these images to point to the future but the early church read these things and knew exactly who John was pointing to; Rome.

This was no fortune cookie prophecy this happened to the tee.

Just like I know my daughter will choose chocolate milk over coffee, that's not prophecy that's just God knowing the people.

Oh, and the name Jehovah is a mistranslation of the Hebrew vowel pointing that was intentionally miss-marked so people wouldn't inadvertently speak the name of YHWH which is most likely pronounced Yahweh.

[DRSmith]

Well since the bible said it would be seventy years and I have seen firsthand efforts to change certain OT events and scriptures in an effort to cast doubts on Jesus's messiahship I take such things with a grain of salt since God said 70 years, and there finding artifacts from Babylon that have it being 70 years since they have the exile starting earlier.

We often change the Ys to Js in English that is why we say Jesus and not Yeshua

[AsburySkinsFan]

Well since the bible said it would be seventy years and I have seen firsthand efforts to change certain OT events and scriptures in an effort to cast doubts on Jesus's messiahship I take such things with a grain of salt since God said 70 years, and there finding artifacts from Babylon that have it being 70 years since they have the exile starting earlier.

Ok.

We often change the Ys to Js in English that is why we say Jesus and not Yeshua

Yes, but changing the Y's to J's does not make Yahweh turn to Jehovah at most it turns it to "Jahweh", Jehovah is a result of the false vowel points that were used as a security measure to prevent inadvertently saying the Lord's name.

[Vicious]

We often change the Ys to Js in English that is why we say Jesus and not Yeshua

We also don't talk about Asherah.

I have seen firsthand efforts to change certain OT events and scriptures in an effort to cast doubts on Jesus's messiahship

Intrigued...

[Fred Jones]

Though many will not believe what I write below, I believe it to be true. Unfortunately, proof that you want will not come until you die and go to the light and remember.

Jesus did not die for our sins. Everyone is accountable for their own sins. The Universe is about balance. If you do wrong, say kill someone, Karma requires you repay that debt in future lives.

An easy example is if you say harm a person physically. You could come back and be an abused spouse or raped African woman for your soul to learn a lesson. I say could, because how you pay back Karma varies, but Karma is always paid.

And yes, that would mean you live many lives. Your Soul, however, does not die.

[Fred Jones]

To throw something else out there to correct the Bible. Not saying the Bible doesn't have many correct facts or I in any way going to argue about it's authenticity, but I will point out something I found interesting. Just one more piece to throw out that people won't believe.

Moses did not part the sea. Parting the sea goes against Nature. Why would Moses, or GOD allow, to go against Nature? What they did was walk across on top of the water. There was enough people who believed in GOD and had Faith to create a walkway for all the people to cross. Of course, the Egyptians didn't have Faith and fell into the Sea.

My only comment is, if you believe the parting of the sea can happen, why can't you believe they walked on water to escape?

Edit: And enough talk for the day.

[twa]

I must have been a very good person in my former life then.

Still working on this one.:evilg:

[Veretax]

To throw something else out there to correct the Bible. Not saying the Bible doesn't have many correct facts or I in any way going to argue about it's authenticity, but I will point out something I found interesting. Just one more piece to throw out that people won't believe.

Moses did not part the sea. Parting the sea goes against Nature. Why would Moses, or GOD allow, to go against Nature? What they did was walk across on top of the water. There was enough people who believed in GOD and had Faith to create a walkway for all the people to cross. Of course, the Egyptians didn't have Faith and fell into the Sea.

My only comment is, if you believe the parting of the sea can happen, why can't you believe they walked on water to escape?

Edit: And enough talk for the day.

That's funny because History Channel had a Documentary some months ago that proposed the idea that all of the ten plagues and red sea crossing could have been the result of a Super Volcano eruption , I can't recall the island off hand but it was near greece.

I find your argument to be a bit specious to be honest, and I think that perhaps if you want to discuss the validity of the bible, you do so in another thread. That's just my suggestion, and I'll leave it at that.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Moses did not part the sea. Parting the sea goes against Nature. Why would Moses, or GOD allow, to go against Nature? What they did was walk across on top of the water. There was enough people who believed in GOD and had Faith to create a walkway for all the people to cross. Of course, the Egyptians didn't have Faith and fell into the Sea.

My only comment is, if you believe the parting of the sea can happen, why can't you believe they walked on water to escape?

Any miracle is against nature, a miracle is an in-breaking of the power of God into creation, as such any miracle is "against nature". BTW, the parting of the Red Sea didn't have anything to do with the faith of the people or how much they believed in God, it wasn't like they all prayed and in response God parted the Sea, instead it was a miracle performed on their behalf.

Oh, and a question concerning your logic; how is walking on water less against nature than parting the Red Sea?

[DRSmith]

To throw something else out there to correct the Bible. Not saying the Bible doesn't have many correct facts or I in any way going to argue about it's authenticity, but I will point out something I found interesting. Just one more piece to throw out that people won't believe.

Moses did not part the sea. Parting the sea goes against Nature. Why would Moses, or GOD allow, to go against Nature? What they did was walk across on top of the water. There was enough people who believed in GOD and had Faith to create a walkway for all the people to cross. Of course, the Egyptians didn't have Faith and fell into the Sea.

My only comment is, if you believe the parting of the sea can happen, why can't you believe they walked on water to escape?

Edit: And enough talk for the day.

So the Egyptians just went into the sea?

Push enough wind and water will part.

[DRSmith]

Though many will not believe what I write below, I believe it to be true. Unfortunately, proof that you want will not come until you die and go to the light and remember.

Jesus did not die for our sins. Everyone is accountable for their own sins. The Universe is about balance. If you do wrong, say kill someone, Karma requires you repay that debt in future lives.

An easy example is if you say harm a person physically. You could come back and be an abused spouse or raped African woman for your soul to learn a lesson. I say could, because how you pay back Karma varies, but Karma is always paid.

And yes, that would mean you live many lives. Your Soul, however, does not die.

Ezekiel 18:

4 Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.

[DRSmith]

Any miracle is against nature, a miracle is an in-breaking of the power of God into creation, as such any miracle is "against nature".

Of interest to me is the fact we can in some cases replicate some miracles as our understanding of the natural world increases but can not overcome certain things. For example Parthenogenesis would make possible the virgin birth, but we as humans can only take it as far as the embyronic stage and will go no further for fear of the defects that would come.

[polywog999]

Any miracle is against nature, a miracle is an in-breaking of the power of God into creation, as such any miracle is "against nature". BTW, the parting of the Red Sea didn't have anything to do with the faith of the people or how much they believed in God, it wasn't like they all prayed and in response God parted the Sea, instead it was a miracle performed on their behalf.

Oh, and a question concerning your logic; how is walking on water less against nature than parting the Red Sea?

According to scripture, the sea parted from the wind. If people believed that the Israelites escaped from bondage in Egypt, why would they not believe the sea parting?

Back to the OP, the bible in many places, speaks of not only heavenly reward, but that people will be blessed here on earth.

So there is an unexplained paradox that I'm sure has a middle ground somewhere.

[DRSmith]

According to scripture, the sea parted from the wind. If people believed that the Israelites escaped from bondage in Egypt, why would they not believe the sea parting?

Back to the OP, the bible in many places, speaks of not only heavenly reward, but that people will be blessed here on earth.

So there is an unexplained paradox that I'm sure has a middle ground somewhere.

I do not believe everyone goes to heaven some will get to live on the Earth finishing the job Adam never did.